I actually considered this, and did it this way for a very specific reason: I didn't really want the Werewolf form to be an answer to every situation. The Shapeshifter is a character who can switch between a powerful melee fighter and a decent caster at will. I'd prefer to keep the enchantment to hit as a slow thing so I don't encroach on the Monk's territory. The Monk has nothing to fall back on if his fists fail, whereas the Shapeshifter has a wide variety of spells to cast (most of them offensive in nature) if the Werewolf method doesn't work out. Besides, if my memory serves, it's a while before enemies require powerful magical weapons for them to be damaged, so it's not like it's needed right away (and even if it is, well, druid magic).
I'm also aware of the insane slog from 14 to 15 - that's why I threw in Immunity to Normal Weapons at level 15 (in addition to the player also gaining a stat bonus and a half attack per round). 15's a pretty significant jump in power for all Druids, so I aimed to make that resonate with the form bonuses as well.
Well, @Bhryaen forgot to mention that the spirit animals weren't just all the way nerfed down. But I'm not sure i may tell how it was improved to balance the full nerfdown.
@AurenRavidel In answer to your question it's definitely now more feasible to address the Shapeshifter rework, particularly after the Totemic Druid's rework experience. I think I agree on the magic paws thingy, except I wouldn't reduce it way down to every 4 levels. Matching the monk in some way is probably a good idea to keep balance.
@Kithrixx Good ideas to work with. My main concern is how BG2 handled it. The BG2 Totemic Animals were seen as a final result (at least for BG1EE) and thus the scaling was built up to that, so things like STR and CON increases don't exactly match the BG2 end-result profile. But the Shapeshifter is a whole different... animal, if you will... It's not clear that the BG2 Shapeshifter's werewolf was sufficient- or overmuch- so the end result in this case isn't so set in codestone. Any experiences with using them would help in determining what actually works in-game. At present the Shapeshifter just looks like a clawed Incredible Hulk who transforms to become a slashing machine. It'd be nice to make it more interesting somehow.
I'd also like it if Werewolves used the warriors THAC0 progression instead of the Druid's, but I'm not even sure if that's possible to do (well, without creating a Werewolf for every single Druid level that is).
@Bhryaen The biggest problem is that the Druid itself is flawed. Play It Hardcore has a basic rundown of all of the Druid's biggest problems; it's essentially a much more offensively oriented Cleric with the issue of many of the most effective spells not being effective indoors, which is incredibly frustrating because I really like Druids. The Shapeshifter was... kind of like a really shitty Monk, in my experience. He had many similar restrictions, but nowhere near the amount of bonuses that he needed to be effective in close-combat that the Monk had. Considering that Druids are kind of eeehhh in BG2 because of the terrain restrictions, I often skipped Cernd entirely. Never skipped Jaheira, though. Harper's Call immediately redeemed her in every way. If Druids had access to Reincarnate (which is basically the "wacky" version of Raise Dead) I imagine they'd be much more acceptable as party members, but I'm not so sure that's going to be happening any time soon.
@Tanthalas I've got a present for you, then. Between the natural THAC0 (which I forgot to add with the original draft) and the enchantment bonuses coming into play at 7 incriments, Werewolf Form will have a somewhat worse THAC0 progression than Fighters, but still better than Priest progression (which includes Druids). You can view the updated rework here.
Give druids better shifts, the animals that the druid become should be stronger than the average of that kind, evolve inside the specie kind in druid levels (ex: lvl 1-2 wolf, 3-2 warg, 5 dire wolf, 6 winter wolf or some shit like this), give druids an ability to summon animals of it's current shifted specie... or any other kind of improvment, cos druid shifts are horrible in this game (even the elementals, in ToB i don't lose my time turning in elemental if i can unleash combos of level 6-7 spells).
In werewolf specifically, i truly liked @Tanthalas idea if posible, the Tenser Transformation spell somehow do exactly what you suggest, so maybe there's already some code pre-done that could help in this. A selected ability increase could be good too, something unique per level, as lvl 1 normal werewolf, lvl 2 get + 1/2 attack per round, lvl 3 +x% resistance to elemental damage, lvl 4 the attack and damage get a bonus of +x...
Make cast spells while shifter a HLA ability.
Make some specific druid spells be locked to shifted forms only (even more specific, some in animal form only, a werewolf could get specific werewolf spells too) this way there will be a reason to shift at least from time to time. Those spells should mostly be buffs and probally personal buffs would fit better, but it's a suggestion, if used do with it as pleases more.
About the totemic druids, as i see already exist a lot of posts about them, so i will read them before post anything here.
@Kithrixx Another idea for extra Shapeshifter powers might be Call Wolf Pack that summons 1-2 or 1-3 wolves that get better at higher levels- ultimately summoning vampire wolves. Maybe not. Just an idea.
Also something to do with the claw attack effect like causing a Save v Death or Panic or bleeding or Level Drain or something- yet again at a higher level. I'd have to pore through the available effects list to get a fuller idea of the pool of related powers.
I definitely get what you're saying about the kit being a less fancy unarmed melee grunt that maxes out too soon. Fixing druids generally- probably not at liberty to do. (Besides, Bards need it much more.) But it should be workable to tweak the werewolf form to something more viable and interesting. I'll try to draw up some charts at some point- hopefully soon- so that can get rolling... though feel free to draw up your own in the meantime and be as inventive as you like.
I wouldn't add in any summoning for the Shapeshifter. We've already seen what problems can arise when you give a class innate summoning abilities with the Totemic Druid.
As for bleeding/panic/level drain... gonna have to balk at that suggestion as well. My rework is gearing the Shapeshifter Werewolf to just be a really durable combatant that hits like a truck. If I start adding in other stuff, well, then (in my opinion) he'd become too Monk-esque, and that would bother me a lot. No matter what happens, the Shapeshifter always has Druid spells to fall back on, so I'm very weary of making the Werewolf form anything more than something that hits really hard and is resistant to damage (although relatively easy to damage because piss-poor AC). Granted, within the bounds of "hitting hard and shrugging off wounds", I'll make him powerful with a smile, but anything else would bother me. After all, the Werewolf form is not all that the Shapeshifter is. If you want a class that is completely centered around being a frontline combatant without equipment reliance, then play a Monk.
As for the charts thing, well... I made this thread over here where we can back and forth about it to your heart's content. I think the Shapeshifter discussion has graduated far beyond just a "bug" thing now.
First of all, slight bump. Second of all, anyone know what patch/when will the shapeshifter changes be applied? Besides not being much different than BG2 shapeshifters so far, I have noticed a frequent bug involving their claws changing to fists (or a weapon if they had one equipped before the shift) at various points (most notably in the Black Pits after every single fight).
Would love to see this fixed too! Rebalanced for BG1 and 2. The Weimer fixes were total overkill for my BGT playthroughs They were fun though... Especially with Tactics mod.
Playing a shapeshifter now on my iPad and while he is powerful, I know he will be weak when the game will be closer to the end. The locked values are most annoying...
It's been confirmed than any and all bugs present within this (utterly awesome) kit when it was introduced in BG2 are also present in BG:EE. And it had a lot. For example:
-Claws were meant to scale in damage and count as magical weapons (+1 in lesser form, +3 in greater). They do no such thing. -Transforming whilst equipped with a weapon that you are proficient in will, on occasion, lock that weapon into your weapon slot and add its prof. bonus to your claw attacks. (It shouldn't). -You're supposed to have varying degrees of magic resistance depending on your form, and although it will be listed on your record that you do, it's not actually there in-game. -Most of the upgrades that greater form was supposed to grant you were not implemented, inclusing (iirc) the HP regen for havong a CON of 25.
In short, lesser form should be fine for BG1/EE until you hit the end-game or run into monsters with immunity to normal weapons, but beyond that point the class becomes so crippled with bugs it's unplayable, which is a massive, massive shame.
It seems to be bugged. If I change, sleep, turn to human and change again it drops to -6, repeat and it drops to -9 It can be repeated indefeniatly, I'm at -18 now. http://imgur.com/W39cB
Comments
I actually considered this, and did it this way for a very specific reason: I didn't really want the Werewolf form to be an answer to every situation. The Shapeshifter is a character who can switch between a powerful melee fighter and a decent caster at will. I'd prefer to keep the enchantment to hit as a slow thing so I don't encroach on the Monk's territory. The Monk has nothing to fall back on if his fists fail, whereas the Shapeshifter has a wide variety of spells to cast (most of them offensive in nature) if the Werewolf method doesn't work out. Besides, if my memory serves, it's a while before enemies require powerful magical weapons for them to be damaged, so it's not like it's needed right away (and even if it is, well, druid magic).
I'm also aware of the insane slog from 14 to 15 - that's why I threw in Immunity to Normal Weapons at level 15 (in addition to the player also gaining a stat bonus and a half attack per round). 15's a pretty significant jump in power for all Druids, so I aimed to make that resonate with the form bonuses as well.
When one is "not sure i may tell" certain things, it does not entail having "forgotten to mention" them... :-D
In answer to your question it's definitely now more feasible to address the Shapeshifter rework, particularly after the Totemic Druid's rework experience. I think I agree on the magic paws thingy, except I wouldn't reduce it way down to every 4 levels. Matching the monk in some way is probably a good idea to keep balance.
@Kithrixx
Good ideas to work with. My main concern is how BG2 handled it. The BG2 Totemic Animals were seen as a final result (at least for BG1EE) and thus the scaling was built up to that, so things like STR and CON increases don't exactly match the BG2 end-result profile. But the Shapeshifter is a whole different... animal, if you will... It's not clear that the BG2 Shapeshifter's werewolf was sufficient- or overmuch- so the end result in this case isn't so set in codestone. Any experiences with using them would help in determining what actually works in-game. At present the Shapeshifter just looks like a clawed Incredible Hulk who transforms to become a slashing machine. It'd be nice to make it more interesting somehow.
The biggest problem is that the Druid itself is flawed. Play It Hardcore has a basic rundown of all of the Druid's biggest problems; it's essentially a much more offensively oriented Cleric with the issue of many of the most effective spells not being effective indoors, which is incredibly frustrating because I really like Druids. The Shapeshifter was... kind of like a really shitty Monk, in my experience. He had many similar restrictions, but nowhere near the amount of bonuses that he needed to be effective in close-combat that the Monk had. Considering that Druids are kind of eeehhh in BG2 because of the terrain restrictions, I often skipped Cernd entirely. Never skipped Jaheira, though. Harper's Call immediately redeemed her in every way. If Druids had access to Reincarnate (which is basically the "wacky" version of Raise Dead) I imagine they'd be much more acceptable as party members, but I'm not so sure that's going to be happening any time soon.
@Tanthalas
I've got a present for you, then. Between the natural THAC0 (which I forgot to add with the original draft) and the enchantment bonuses coming into play at 7 incriments, Werewolf Form will have a somewhat worse THAC0 progression than Fighters, but still better than Priest progression (which includes Druids). You can view the updated rework here.
Give druids better shifts, the animals that the druid become should be stronger than the average of that kind, evolve inside the specie kind in druid levels (ex: lvl 1-2 wolf, 3-2 warg, 5 dire wolf, 6 winter wolf or some shit like this), give druids an ability to summon animals of it's current shifted specie... or any other kind of improvment, cos druid shifts are horrible in this game (even the elementals, in ToB i don't lose my time turning in elemental if i can unleash combos of level 6-7 spells).
In werewolf specifically, i truly liked @Tanthalas idea if posible, the Tenser Transformation spell somehow do exactly what you suggest, so maybe there's already some code pre-done that could help in this. A selected ability increase could be good too, something unique per level, as lvl 1 normal werewolf, lvl 2 get + 1/2 attack per round, lvl 3 +x% resistance to elemental damage, lvl 4 the attack and damage get a bonus of +x...
Make cast spells while shifter a HLA ability.
Make some specific druid spells be locked to shifted forms only (even more specific, some in animal form only, a werewolf could get specific werewolf spells too) this way there will be a reason to shift at least from time to time. Those spells should mostly be buffs and probally personal buffs would fit better, but it's a suggestion, if used do with it as pleases more.
About the totemic druids, as i see already exist a lot of posts about them, so i will read them before post anything here.
Another idea for extra Shapeshifter powers might be Call Wolf Pack that summons 1-2 or 1-3 wolves that get better at higher levels- ultimately summoning vampire wolves. Maybe not. Just an idea.
Also something to do with the claw attack effect like causing a Save v Death or Panic or bleeding or Level Drain or something- yet again at a higher level. I'd have to pore through the available effects list to get a fuller idea of the pool of related powers.
I definitely get what you're saying about the kit being a less fancy unarmed melee grunt that maxes out too soon. Fixing druids generally- probably not at liberty to do. (Besides, Bards need it much more.) But it should be workable to tweak the werewolf form to something more viable and interesting. I'll try to draw up some charts at some point- hopefully soon- so that can get rolling... though feel free to draw up your own in the meantime and be as inventive as you like.
I wouldn't add in any summoning for the Shapeshifter. We've already seen what problems can arise when you give a class innate summoning abilities with the Totemic Druid.
As for bleeding/panic/level drain... gonna have to balk at that suggestion as well. My rework is gearing the Shapeshifter Werewolf to just be a really durable combatant that hits like a truck. If I start adding in other stuff, well, then (in my opinion) he'd become too Monk-esque, and that would bother me a lot. No matter what happens, the Shapeshifter always has Druid spells to fall back on, so I'm very weary of making the Werewolf form anything more than something that hits really hard and is resistant to damage (although relatively easy to damage because piss-poor AC). Granted, within the bounds of "hitting hard and shrugging off wounds", I'll make him powerful with a smile, but anything else would bother me. After all, the Werewolf form is not all that the Shapeshifter is. If you want a class that is completely centered around being a frontline combatant without equipment reliance, then play a Monk.
As for the charts thing, well... I made this thread over here where we can back and forth about it to your heart's content. I think the Shapeshifter discussion has graduated far beyond just a "bug" thing now.
Totemic Druids were adjusted, Shapeshifters will only be touched upon post-release.
I think you can leave this in the BG2 subforum.
Second of all, anyone know what patch/when will the shapeshifter changes be applied? Besides not being much different than BG2 shapeshifters so far, I have noticed a frequent bug involving their claws changing to fists (or a weapon if they had one equipped before the shift) at various points (most notably in the Black Pits after every single fight).
Playing a shapeshifter now on my iPad and while he is powerful, I know he will be weak when the game will be closer to the end. The locked values are most annoying...
Also worth mentioning:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/5091/kiths-shapeshifter-rework/p1