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Brand new player seeking party advice.



  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    edited May 2015
    Bullshit. There still is no reason why a player must take Sleep and may not be happy with other spells, which have their use-cases too ... perhaps only later on like Chromatic Orb, but that cannot be discussed with you when words get twisted or when you pretend you want "most optimal" solutions. Most optimal is what is available to the player and what the player can handle fine. If it involves crystal balls and predictions, things get more complicated for a new player giving a sorcerer a try. The new player may either follow specific steps of a detailed walkthrough and learn in advance the few spells some godlike powergamer suggests or be more happy with more general guidance and learn what is fun to play with.

    Nobody talked about "powergaming" or specific requirements such as having a tank run around. It's only you who comes up with specifics without any alternatives ... things you consider mandatory ... instead of giving more general hints or inspiration on what members a party could consist of to be successful.
    If you only want to use CC spells then it's better to just use a Mage and dual or multi them.
    Seriously? Look at the initial message of this topic: I would like to avoid using the human dual class system, as it seems really unappealing to me. Not only that, a dual-class mage would need to start as a mage, or else Sleep would not be available to the other class. ... Would that be "most optimal"? Certainly not! Once dual-classed, the mage class abilities would be missing for some time. Leave such suggestions to more experienced players! It reminds me of my one game where I ended up without a healer and found that sucks too much. ;)

    Whether to create a multi-class mage? We're moving away farther from the "most optimal" solution. A multi-class mage in a party-of-six at hard difficulty will stay a mediocre mage throughout the game and not become a good fighter, thief or cleric either.
    Sorcs are stuck as mages. And you can only throw so many Webs before the 5th layer is just unnecessary.
    And unless you've played the game till the end at least once, as a new player you don't know what enemies you will be facing, so you will likely want to advance your mage further instead of stopping at some early level to dual-class to something else.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    Where did I say a player should take Sleep? I said a player should take sleep if they really want to metagame. So if they want to powergame then Sleep is the best option.

    I said multi or dual. So if dual isn't an option then that makes things simpler, that leaves multi.

    A mediocre mage? Grease will last longer than Web and Stinking Cloud. Web and Stinking Cloud are learned at low levels, there's a ring that doubles 1st and 2nd level memorization slots so that isn't a problem. If the player only wants to take a Mage for CC, then a multi does that job pretty well.

    Sleep, Grease, Web and Stinking Cloud take care of all the CC needs in this game.

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    Where did I say a player should take Sleep?
    In early sentences such as: The only time a Sorc shouldn't be getting Sleep is when the player starts off in HoF. That's your only exception.

    All I've been pointing out is that it need not be Sleep at all. A player must not quit and restart, if the single arcane caster of the party has not learned Sleep. Not a hard difficulty.

    And if there is also a mage or bard in the party, they need not learn Sleep either. There are lots of different ways how to play a wizard. Nobody suggested Magic Missile and Shield as the replacement for Sleep. You've made that up. Those spells may be what a sorcerer has learned initially. Nothing wrong with that. It may be personal preference. You find it a suboptimal choice with your focus on the early goblins and orcs. Who cares? If someone later loves throwing various ranged spells at enemies, IWDEE gives enough freedom to make that possible without failing to reach the end of the game.
    I said a player should take sleep if they really want to metagame. So if they want to powergame then Sleep is the best option.
    That's what I mean with "twisting words". You did not even use the words "powergame", "metagame" and "optimal" early on ... you only added them after I had asked why it must be Sleep?

    A wizard can only cast so many spells before and during a fight. The fight is over before the wizard is done with spamming multiple area spells. That's because in a pretty standard party there are competent fighters. They are not afraid of engaging enemies. Or they use ranged attacks. That's why I created a berserker 3 -> cleric and a pure berserker for my frontline. They don't run away. The blocker's job is to hold the line at all cost and hit a bit, too. The dual-wielding berserker tops him with the damage he does. Suboptimal? Who cares? It worked really well ... and new players will be happy with such a party, too. Not godlike? Who cares? Running around in circles is not everyone's cup of tea.

    Btw, a wizard drawing the attention of enemies results in a lot of fun.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    Which I clarified over and over again to have been meant in a powergaming sense.

    I didn't need to clarify it until later because obviously every piece of advice before it was powergaming. So again why Sleep instead of Grease (which should be picked second if powergaming anyway) or whatever? Powergaming.

    Ranged characters? Powergaming. Bards and Skalds being highly recommended? Powergaming.

    So comparing those spells to Sleep is pointless. The recommendation for Sleep is for powergaming reasons. So anyone taking it obviously is taking it for powergaming reasons. If the TC wanted to RP their spell picks, then they wouldn't be picking Sleep for powegaming reasons to begin with.

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    It's blablabla ... the more often you repeat it, it doesn't get more true.
    Ranged characters? Powergaming.
    Nonsense. The player may love archers. Period.

    And if ignoring the period, the player may prefer crossbows over bows. Or slings. Or darts ... whether suboptimal or not doesn't matter ... and create a character that meets personal preferences. Is it necessary to equip all characters with ranged weapons? No. Is it necessary before Kuldahar? No. Later? No. If at all, it's just the recipe of narrow-minded gamer (or "powergamer") who thinks certain ways to play the game are "godlike". The same powergamers, who always max out attributes, who perhaps use mods or exploits to duplicate items, who steal from friends in the game or kill NPCs for "meta-gaming reasons" ... and who complain in message boards that a game is too easy.
    Bards and Skalds being highly recommended? Powergaming.
    LOL ... that's the closed-minded point of view I mean. There are more classes than player can use for the party-of-six. And yet the player may want to create six characters instead of less than six to gain XP faster. Versatility is a common choice. And it's by design that some boni/effects stack. Even the pregenerated party contains a bard ... it's quite an ordinary party composition.

    Btw, that's one of the selling points and why IWDEE is so great. Many play it more than once. With different character choices and different playing-style. I don't listen to complainers, who choose insane difficulty or HoF for the first playthrough and find weaknesses that make the game "too easy".
    So comparing those spells to Sleep is pointless.
    Exactly. Somebody who doesn't feel it necessary to learn Sleep, is not lost without it.

    Yet Grease is helpful in enough situations. You yourself have given examples of how to use Grease. Several times even. I just like using that spell. I also like Spike Growth. It's up to the player to decide when and how to use a spell and whether it matches personal taste or playing style. There are lots of other spells which are not mandatory. A player may not like setting up sequencers or using Mislead/Project Image. And a powergamer perhaps jumps in and spoils the fun by telling that in the entire game some spells are not necessary at all, whether it may be useful or not doesn't matter. I've confirmed very early that Sleep can be helpful. Use it if you like. Still it's not necessary ... and no strict requirement for power-gaming either.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,743
    I see things are getting rather heated here and in fact someone has messaged me about it. The original poster has already asked that you avoid a heated argument. Please keep things civil and respect what the OP is looking for with this thread.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    Give everyone a ranged weapon, ranged beats everything at low levels
    Clearly powergaming
    Consider this: even the first level song gives a 5% increased chance to hit and make saving throws, and if all other characters are using weapons in a round, you might get an additional 8 or more damage, accounting for multi-attack rounds (bows, specializations) and a few misses. The Skald kit doubles that effect, and quadruples it at high level. A high level unkitted bard gets the War Chant, increasing damage resistance (critical if you've got characters or summons with high resistances), AC, and regenerating health. Health regeneration keeps summons and characters alive longer, and means that your divine casters don't have to waste any lower level spell slots on healing, but can pick more offensive spells. I only take a bard maybe 50% of the time, but when I do, it makes the game substantially easier, but subtly so.

    Advice related to ranged weapons and bards in this topic is pure powergaming.

    Again no one is telling anyone to use Sleep. Unless they're powergaming. Which makes all that RP blah blah fairly pointless. And again Grease can still be picked with Shield. And as far ass powergaming is concerned, Grease should be one of the picks for Sorcs. After Sleep. Not Magic Missile which is mediocre. Not Shield which provides pointless defensive benefits.

    So again, why Sleep? Powergaming. Why Sleep first? Powergaming. Whatever blah blah RP reasons don't matter if a person picks sleep for powergaming reasons

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,215
    edited May 2015
    beginners usually like powergaming. approaching the game with an intentionally anti-powergaming mindset usually presumes a degree of familiarity with it and the fact that it can be made more fun if you avoid obvious yet superior solutions (which is the game's fault) and go for some other criteria instead of raw killing power. so telling a beginner not to powergame probably isn't very useful because they won't even understand what it means in the context of the said game; they probably want to powergame anyway because they feel it's being "ethically" rectified by their lack of experience and fear of getting killed.

    edit: powergaming your first run of iwd or most other rpgs is tremendously fun and it can only potentially be looked down upon if people go through many playthroughs and *always* powergame without trying anything new or peculiar - because it ostensibly reveals their lack of imagination or confidence and might look a bit pathetic; but it's a highly subjective judgement and ultimately unimportant.

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    edited May 2015
    bob_veng said:

    beginners usually like powergaming.

    Often beginners fear defeat. They fear skilling mistakes. They fear playing with a party that isn't strong enough to finish the game. They are overwhelmed with the number of pages in the manual ... with all the spells and details. There have been clerics with low wisdom by accident. There have been dual-class characters that couldn't dual class later on.

    So what? I've pointed out that some players would search the Internet for detailed walkthroughs, howtos, faqs, mods, eekeeper and ask for help in a forum. They could also play on easy or activate story-mode and avoid any challenge.

    Yet one can give them options to choose from instead of preaching a single way how to play. How far would you go? Create a list of what spells to learn for IWDEE in which order? Even such howtos exist for "solo runs". And still there is not only a single guide but different ones ... authors disagree with eachother ... about usefulness of spells, classes, weapons, item choices, tactics. And what next? Create a list of what items to equip ... oh, some are dropped randomly ... what a pity. Tell the beginner how to move the party? Whether and when to become invisible/stealthy to explore in safety?
    approaching the game with an intentionally anti-powergaming mindset
    Anti-powergaming mindset? Where?

    For me this topic has developed into a most-unpleasent experience within this forum. Nobody has even used the word "powergaming" until a later point of this "discussion". I can only take so much twisting of words or putting words into my mouth ... it has been too much in this topic. Unacceptable. Leaving the forum would be an easy decision.

    Choosing a bard as a member of the party-of-six is not power-gaming. A bard is a wasted slot if not played right. A bard is just one of multiple classes which are offered.

    May I choose a druid without being called a power-gamer? I did not shapeshift a single time with my druid. What is that called then?

    Creating dual-class or multi-class characters is not power-gaming. It is a feature of the roleset.

    Rerolling attributes two hours to get a score of 92, 96 or 98 is power-gaming. Using EEKeeper can be considered cheating even. Rerolling attributes to maximize a few important ones is a gray area. If the party is supposed to consist of "heroes", one could justify high attributes ...

    Decreasing irrelevant attributes to ridiculous levels is power-gaming. Decreasing them only a bit is a gray area.

    Creating evil aligned characters, so they can equip special items, but never making evil choices throughout the game is power-gaming.

    Exploiting weaknesses in the enemy AI is power-gaming. No surprise a lot of players hate the engagement system of Pillars of Eternity.

    And an example from BGEE: travelling early to far locations just to pick up NPCs you would otherwise meet only later, is power-gaming, meta-gaming, cheating, ... whatever. Same for "farming" basilisks" early, so a solo sorcerer can level up quickly. Fortunately, in IWDEE you cannot move so freely from area to area.

    Learning one of the many available wizard spells it not power-gaming.
    it can be made more fun if you avoid obvious yet superior solutions (which is the game's fault) and go for some other criteria instead of raw killing power. so telling a beginner not to powergame probably isn't very useful
    Who has done that?

    If I'm not free to point out that Sleep is not strictly necessary for IWDEE and that learning and casting it is not power-gaming, this forum is not for me.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,215
    edited May 2015
    1st point: "what would i do, how far would i go?"
    - i would enucleate for them a party configuration that makes them learn most of the important game mechanics and is also rather powerful; in iwd that would be a well-rolled melee oriented party that has some multiclassed casters of both schools and a skald. i would omit sorcerer because picking spells requires some long term planning and spell knowledge which a beginner doesn't have unless he just copies someone else's spell choices which i wouldn't recommend as it's not an authentic way to meet the game's strategic challenges (the same goes for dualclassing). i would tell them to look for and use rings of free action and web, to take advantage of dual-wielding and haste, and to enjoy yeah, that's pretty far i guess

    2nd point: you feeling accused of something, presumably by me
    - i wouldn't worry about it. i already said i don't really have a firm opinion on powergaming and i don't consider the notion of it worth much deliberation. even with maximum powergaming the game is still fun for a beginner (but one could argue that it *shouldn't* be for an experienced player because powergaming eventually entails considerable repetitiveness and that can only biologically be fun up to a certain point). i think you are being defensive towards me for no reason.

    3rd point: you feeling accused of something else
    i don't know, i thought someone else might have, but nevermind. sleep is great. using it is not powergaming.

    i'm sorry if i upset you in any way, i didn't want to make things more complicated but instead to put things in a beginner's perspective

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,265
    What are you trying to prove, @Merina?

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    Bards are recommended by power gamimg standards. Why include a Bard? Because their bonuses provide the most use out of the 6th slot.

    Skalds are recommended into a party not because of the setting but because of the +2/4 damage and -2 /4AC. It's literaly a walking buff. That's why Skalds are recommended. Bards are the same with War Chant of fhe Sith. Not because it's a default member. Even before the EE was released, Bards were immensely popular. So what's the excuse there? There was no default party in the original. The popularity of Bards and Skalds comes mostly from their songs mechanical effects.

    Change their songs to have horrible bonuses and I'd be surprised if they get mentioned in a tenth of the post your party posts.

    You are free to point out Sleep is unnecessary. But don't offer an alternative by completely ignoring the reason why it was suggested in the first place. Sleep is there because it singlehandedly can turn a fight a player finds tough (which obviously the fights the TC is talking about fall under) to a walk in the park. Magic Missile doesn't do that. Shield doesn't do that. Grease can, but again Sleep does it better. Charm Person can potentially do this, but non-HoF means low monster HP so a charmed mob dies much, much quicker. So to even ask why Sleep instead of X is pretty ridiculous. Especially when why Sleep instead of Grease makes no sense as Sleep and Grease are two incredibly good initial picks for as Sorc.

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303

    What are you trying to prove, @Merina?

    Isn't it obvious?

    It's unacceptable what @Zyzzogeton does to my posts. Instead of quoting what I've written, there are replies that comment on unlined claims. You compared this and that. You wrote this and that. Putting words into my mouth instead of simply quoting bits to comment on. I can't stand it. I've answered with "No, I didn't" and "You misunderstood" several times ... and still received more replies referring to you compared Sleep with Grease and so on. Hopeless. I doubt Zyzzogeton would do that when talking eye to eye IRL.

    Bards are recommended by power gamimg standards.

    Where are those "standards" defined? I haven't read them. They are not included within the BG and IWD pdf files. I have strong doubts about what you write. And, btw, many a topic about what some people consider "over-powered" or "godlike" doesn't interest me anyway.

    Why include a Bard? Because their bonuses provide the most use out of the 6th slot.
    Why are there six slots?

    There are various classes to choose from ... more than six. Different bards even. And still, for IWDEE, you can see some players recommend more melee-oriented parties. Along the lines "XYZ is not necessary for IWDEE". Bards are not mandatory.

    Skalds are recommended into a party not because of the setting
    Nobody has claimed otherwise. You make up something and get lost in your replies, commenting on things nobody has claimed.

    Change their songs to have horrible bonuses and I'd be surprised if they get mentioned in a tenth of the post your party posts.
    And still there is room to disagree. Such a change of their songs could be accompanied with balanced changes to the story, side-quests and quest XP rewards ... and players would think twice before not playing a bard.

    On the contrary, if you ask for artificially "crippling" bards to make them entirely useless, discussing that doesn't interest me. I don't care about what people say about Sir Anomen or Khalid being skilled poorly, because they are good and versatile enough to have fun with them during a game.

    You are free to point out Sleep is unnecessary.
    News! I'll tell that the town crier.

    But don't offer an alternative by completely ignoring the reason why it was suggested in the first place.
    Is that your style? Giving other forum users commands? Return to the top of the topic. I've acknowledged early and explicitly that Sleep can be helpful in some situations. The one who had started this topic made good experience with Sleep in the Orcs cave. Why would I then advise against making further usage of Sleep? I don't. I didn't. A player has found something that helped. Great! I only pointed out that it need not be Sleep to be successful. It's not the single solution the player must find to succeed in the orcs cave. The game doesn't work like that. And "focus on things like sleep" needed further discussion, since "focus" could mean creating an "Enchanter", ... and a mage will cast other spells more often than Sleep later on. Never did I suggest Grease as a direct replacement for Sleep. The two spells do something different. Never did I compare MM, Chromatic Orb or Shield with Sleep. You've made that up. All I did is to point out that a player unexperienced with wizards and sorcerers may have learned other spells and could still be successful, because mages are useful for stuff other than Sleep.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    I already gave those standards, Bards and Skalds are walking songs.

    Not the whatever setting RP blah blah.

    Skalds are taken because they give damage and AC not because Bards are in the default party and that the Skald fits the IWD setting.

    Also the XP reward? That's metagaming. Nothing in the game tells a new player that Bards result in more XP in a quest. So take a Bard because the game gives you more XP if you do, ignore Shield on a Sorcerer because enemies don't use Magic Missile a lot and the few instances they do will just result in the Sorcerer risking getting killed anyway. Same thing. Knowing something that a person who never played the game wouldn't be expected to know.

    If a player succeeds in the early game because their Mage picked Shield and Magic Missile it will be that player succeeding in the early game despite their Mage picking Shield and Magic Missile. There's a whole world of difference between Magic Missile and Shield being actually useful than succeeding despite picking Shield and Magic Missile.

    Also focusing on Sleep is going to result in picking an Enchanter? What exactly is wrong with that? Why normal Mage instead of Enchanter? Why whatever instead of Enchanter? You're saying the game can't be finished if the player uses an Enchanter?

    What exactly is wrong if a player picks an Enchanter? So it's okay for players to do anything, except picking an Enchanter?

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    You still don't understand. You still put words into my mouth, which is a hostile thing to do. Learn how to quote.

    Have fun in this topic.

    I won't answer to the questions in your post, because you're twisting words endlessly, ... running in circles like your tank ... the bottom of your post is ridiculous, and again you've put words into my mouth:

    You're saying ...
    No, I didn't.

    OMG. You just don't get it. Wow! How sad. Again you sum up something I haven't written anywhere.

    As I said, you are a most unpleasant encounter in this forum due to the way you twist words in this topic. Keep trying! Yesterday I would have deleted my account in disgust ... but that isn't possible.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,743
    edited May 2015
    @Merina and @Zyzzogeton I asked you guys to be civil and that unfortunately hasn't happened. I've closed the thread as a result. Please remember the forum rules. Particularly rules #1 and #4.

    Rule 1: Flaming is Not Allowed.
    Flaming is what happens when you post before you have time to rein in your emotions and/or dial back the hate-o-meter. Flaming is against the very first rule of this and every other forum, so don't do it. Flaming any member of the community, including members of the development team, will not be tolerated. If you feel that someone is directly attacking you on a personal level, or if you feel that someone is being intentionally offensive to someone else, please notify a moderator via Private Message, and we'll take care of it.

    Rule 4: Respect Each Other.
    This one should go without saying. Even if you don't agree with someone, do them the courtesy of addressing that disagreement in a civil manner, or don't address it at all. If you think someone has violated any of the above rules, please do not attempt to deal with the matter yourself. Inform a moderator, and let us handle it. We're very good at our jobs, and we don't outsource.

    This also extends to general rules of politeness: if you do something, and someone is offended by it and they ask you to stop in a polite and respectful manner, the polite and respectful thing to do is to stop doing it. If you attempt to start an argument in a thread that wasn't asking for an argument, and the people in that thread ask you to stop, then stop. This should go without saying, because it's part of common decency, but this is the Internet, and the Internet occasionally brings out the Stupid in people. It doesn't mean people are stupid, but it does mean that sometimes we all need a reminder.

This discussion has been closed.