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Brand new player seeking party advice.

Hello everyone,

First of all I would like to apologise for my ignorance.
I purchased this game about a week ago now, and I haven't had much time actually playing it yet, as I've been spending most of the time learning the mechanics and trying to create a party I enjoy, but it also functional and friendly to a new player like myself.

I would really appreciate some suggestions from some seasoned players, in regards to party creation.
I would like to avoid using the human dual class system, as it seems really unappealing to me. However, I don't mind using multi class system.

Also, I need some advice with combat, rather embarrassingly, I have been dying to group of orcs in the cave, and I can't seem to beat them with any party I've been using, even my tank dies rather quickly. I was using a cleric to heal, and had some ranged, but i just seemed to get overwhelmed.
I would like to avoid reducing the difficulty and just get better.

So, basically any and all advice is welcome.
But I would really appreciate a suggested party setup for new players, including what weapons, armour and skills to use.

Thanks in advance.

«1

Comments

  • wubblewubble Member Posts: 3,156
    Give everyone a ranged weapon, ranged beats everything at low levels, not only is it great damage you can get a cople of shots in before having to switch to melee.

    And just in case, make sure you have heart of fury mode turned off, that will make things impossibly difficult without prior experience.

    JuliusBorisovlunar
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 17,447
    Hello, @frxnkjaeger and welcome to the forum! Hope you'll find all your questions answered here.

    I advice you to go through http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/34131/best-iwd-party-setup#latest, at least try to read several pages of this discussion. There're tons of good advice there.

    Also, have a look at http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/39111/optimal-party-for-story-possible-spoilers#latest , http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/39775/rate-my-party#latest and http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/39292/party-size-in-iwd#latest.

    I played IWDEE with the following party and didn't have any troubles, instead it was fun:

    Half-Elf Bard (no kit)
    Gnome Fighter/Illusionist
    Half-Elf Totemic Druid
    Dwarf Fighter/Thief
    Half-orc Priest of Tempus
    Elf Wild Mage (I also though about taking Dragon Disciple instead)

  • AerichAerich Member Posts: 103
    Welcome, @frxnkjaeger. Basic party creation tips for a 6-member party on Core difficulty...
    1) Play a multiclass thief (fighter or mage)
    2) At least 2-3 warrior classes, including multiclass ones
    3) 1-2 arcane (wizard/bard/sorceror) classes
    4) 1-2 divine casters (cleric/druid)

    Combat tips
    1) Your tank needs the best AC money can buy - at creation, max your tank's Dex for the AC bonus
    2) Agree with @wubble, every character must use a ranged weapon, and your warrior classes should be specialized (two points) in a ranged weapon
    3) Use "crowd control" spells instead of damaging spells - Entangle (druid) and Grease (arcane) are good ones for the orc cave. I am also fond of charming an orc archer to fight the other archers, saving the party from being targeted.

    You can slow down the combat to get used to it by changing some settings in the options menu - You can set it to pause after a character has been injured, finished a round, cast a spell, etc. These can help you get familiar with the combat system, and ensure that you aren't losing game time during combat by having characters stand around.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    Since it's not HoF, Sleep is practically god mode until Kuldahar. Especially on Sorcerers

    Also one character should at least be on Sword & Shield. Have the tank run around instead of engaging enemies. It matters more that melee enemies aren't hitting your tank than you tank being unable to attack.

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    Some numbers related to the difficulty setting, which decides how any experience points you get during the game:

    Normal difficulty with a party of four heroes: After the end-fight and starting the Hearth of Winter expansion afterwards ... instead of doing it earlier when the heroes meet the minimum level requirement, my single fighter berserker was at level 14 with 1,577,xxx experience. As HoW is fighting intensive, he reached level 18 with HoW not completed.

    Hard difficulty with a party of six heroes: 1,951,xxx experience before end-fight, which is Fighters level 15, Rogues level 18.

    So, if you want to reach higher levels in the game, it becomes necessary to increase difficulty or create a smaller party or do it the boring way by gaining extra experience by fighting enemies in areas where monsters respawn randomly.

    Many items you find are dropped randomly. You will find so many different weapons and armors, there will be enough for your party.

  • frxnkjaegerfrxnkjaeger Member Posts: 4
    First of all I'd like to say thank you to everyone who has commented, all this information has been incredibly helpful.
    I managed to clear orc cave on hard difficulty. Sleep was especially useful.
    But, I still don't really like the party I've been using, I can't out my finger on it, but I want to have the perfect party (for me) before I really get into the game.

    I had some questions about certain classes.

    Why is bard so heavily recommended by everyone? what makes them so useful? and is there level 1 song worth using?

    I've heard offensive magic isn't particularly strong in the game either, and I'm not the biggest fan of a lot of magic, would it be better to take a sorcerer or a mage specialised for things like sleep?

  • frxnkjaegerfrxnkjaeger Member Posts: 4
    Sidenote: Since I found the game to be incredibly easier (even on hard mode) with the use of sleep and ranged weapons, I think I'd like to try the HOF mode.

  • wubblewubble Member Posts: 3,156
    I can't really advise you on bards as I don't generally use them myself (please don't kill me).

    Mages are far better for specialised casting than sorcerers, if you take the wrong spell as a sorcerer you can never change that decision. For a first time player it's better to have a mage as you can take all of the spells and learn which of them suit your play style.

  • AerichAerich Member Posts: 103
    edited May 2015
    @frxnkjaeger, if you don't like your party, post it with any questions you have.

    In my view, a bard is in the running for most versatile/best party support character. It picks pockets (freeing up skills points for your thief), casts spells, and buffs up your own party. Consider this: even the first level song gives a 5% increased chance to hit and make saving throws, and if all other characters are using weapons in a round, you might get an additional 8 or more damage, accounting for multi-attack rounds (bows, specializations) and a few misses. The Skald kit doubles that effect, and quadruples it at high level. A high level unkitted bard gets the War Chant, increasing damage resistance (critical if you've got characters or summons with high resistances), AC, and regenerating health. Health regeneration keeps summons and characters alive longer, and means that your divine casters don't have to waste any lower level spell slots on healing, but can pick more offensive spells. I only take a bard maybe 50% of the time, but when I do, it makes the game substantially easier, but subtly so.

    Offensive magic is strong on difficulties other than HoF, and even on HoF it's still a key part of the arsenal - one just can't expect that two casts of Fireball will kill anything...

    And speaking of HoF, do not go directly to HoF just because you find goblins easy prey with Sleep. Do a full run first with a party, then if you want to challenge yourself, create a new party and do HoF mode. Monsters have hundreds more HP. Also, if you've done the "easy" part of the game not in HoF mode then go to harder areas in HoF mode without the benefit of the extra XP gained from HoF mode earlier in the game, you will suffer.

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303

    I managed to clear orc cave on hard difficulty. Sleep was especially useful.

    That's true. Sleep can be very helpful early on, but isn't necessary in the orcs cave. I've not used it a single time. My sorceress didn't learn it. My bard didn't either.
    But, I still don't really like the party I've been using, I can't out my finger on it, but I want to have the perfect party (for me) before I really get into the game.
    Your personal taste may be different to disagree on what is perfect ... let's see:

    My six heroes for a hard playthrough:

    Endoriel - berserker, true neutral Elf, long swords and later dual-wielding
    Brother Ombas - berserker3/cleric, neutral good Human, defensive frontman with warhammer and shield
    Velana - sorceress, chaotic evil Elf
    Alvina - skald (bard), true neutral elf, weapon skill irrelevant
    Amariel - swashbuckler, true neutral Elf, shortbow, later short swords and even later dual-wielding
    Takiras - druid (no kit), half-elf?, spears and two-handed

    There's some cheese in there ... the alignment of some of them has been chosen for some of the equipment found in the game. Some items are not usable by good aligned people. Or there's a Wisdom+1 cloak not usable by neutral/evil characters. It doesn't matter much ... I just found it funny.

    The berserker should be clear ... race bonus on long swords, and there are good long swords in the game. And enough proficiency points to waste a few points on other weapons later on.

    The priest doesn't need to be a dual-class human ... but I like the extra fighting power from the three fighter levels before becoming a cleric. Five skill points on warhammers. ... if undecided, a cleric/thief
    multi-class half-orc works very well, too, but not as a blocker.

    The sorceress does a little bit of everything: support, area damage, single enemy damage. Of course, you need to be experienced with what spells you need or what spells you like. If you like safety, don't forget protection spells, such as mirror image and stoneskin. For the Shield spell there's an item, but it can be helpful a few times.

    The skald is singing most of the time or helps with additional area spells, because unlike the sorceress she can learn whatever may be needed, even the good old fireball spell whereas the sorceress may prefer skull trap.

    The swashbuckler thief, ... well, I like finding and disarming traps instead of avoiding them. Else she does ranged combat until she is good enough for helping with melee damage. No sneaking, no backstab attacks this time.

    The druid has been very helpful with his healing early on, while the priest was still a fighter. Later the druid added very entertaining area damage spells, which made many fights much easier in my opinion. Else he added some melee damage from second line with the good spears one can find. +3 and later +5. I didn't use any shape-shifting, ... I played the druid much like a mage. Druid + sorcerer in the party. One caster too much depending on your play style.

    Why is bard so heavily recommended by everyone? what makes them so useful? and is there level 1 song worth using?
    The bard songs ... or the single skald song ... give lots of good boni and protection effects. Just look them up in the manual, which is included with the game. Before combat or when not singing, you can help with spells. You don't need another mage in the party, but a mage or sorcerer in the party is safer due to earlier access to spells that may remove protections in case you may see a need for that without hording scrolls.

    What was bad about the skald in my party? ... Most of the time I've had her stand in the back row, singing, and the good effects of her are not directly visible. It's somewhat odd and less entertaining than another active spell caster, such as a druid, ... or a competent fighter. I was missing the two-handed swords damage dealer this time. I'm sure I will create a different party with another melee fighter. I gave the skald a long bow, ... there are good long bows ... but temporarily made her wield a defensive axe and later an arbitrary weapon with a good bonus. For example, the +30 lore sword one can get.

    I've heard offensive magic isn't particularly strong in the game either, and I'm not the biggest fan of a lot of magic, would it be better to take a sorcerer or a mage specialised for things like sleep?
    Why must it be Sleep? Some mages prefer Grease ... I certainly do. Chromatic Orb instead of Magic Missile, if you read the spell description carefully. Mages are not needed in this game. Some play without mages. Do you like potions? I've collected dozens of potions without using them ... because I didn't need them and was strong enough without them. It could be different without a mage in the party.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    There aren't that many good level 1 spells that Sleep is going to bite a Sorc back.

    Sorcerers can always pick Grease and Sleep. I mean what are you going to lose? Identify? Bards. Or just hold off, because the game will give you way too much money later on. Find Familiar? Use a scroll. Armor and Shield? Sorcs don't need AC. Magic Missile? 5d4+5? Sure, if you can luck out on Double Improved Alacrity and Time Stop from Wish. But by then you'd have Incendiary Cloud anyway. Plus very few enemy mages use Mirror Image and Dispel Magic will take those out anyway.

    The only time a Sorc shouldn't be getting Sleep is when the player starts off in HoF. If a player imports to HoF, the Sorc's level will be high enough that it doesn't matter that 1 Level 1 pick is useless.

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    You misunderstood. Sleep is not needed against the early orcs, goblins or lesser shadows.

    If you like casting it, learn it early. Use it where it works.

    If you cannot decide what else to choose at later levels when you have to pick another class 1 spell, basically you could choose any of the remaining spells, such as Protection from Petrification. I like mages that are well-prepared for anything ... even if that spell is not needed, not even against Belhifet. *LOL*

    Nobody forces you to learn Magic Missile either ... although many agree on that it's one fun spell early on and even later.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    You asked why it must be Sleep instead of Grease. Mages can learn both spells. What does a Mage lose for using their initial spell pick on Sleep? What does a Sorcerer lose by picking Sleep first then Grease later on?

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    Are you evil aligned or what?

    I don't consider Sleep the only important spell to pick first for a party engaging orcs on hard difficulty early in the game. There are many ways to win those fights. Sleep is not necessary. Sleep is not the only way to finish off the orcs and goblins up to Kuldahar.

    That's why I questioned why it must be Sleep? ... When a new player creates a sorcerer/mage and chooses the two initial spells to learn, there are more choices that are plausible. It's not strictly necessary to choose Sleep.

    The sorcerer may have learned Magic Missile and Shield, ... because those are useful. Not everyone likes running away always ... kiting like a solo hero in every encounter. Give a sh*t to people who spoil the fun and tell you how you must play the game or whether a sorcerer doesn't need AC. You don't know whether your sorcerer will be the target of ranged attacks, such as magic missiles. Play as you like. Make him/her well-prepared with useful spells. Ignore Sleep, if you prefer other spells that do the job.

    At hard, a fighter in a party-of-six has advanced to level 3 already before Kuldahar Pass ... so the sorcerer likely has advanced, too, knowing three class 1 spells ... and may have gone fine without Sleep ... why choose Sleep at later levels? Only because you must learn another class 1 spell? Does it matter late in the game? Why must it be Sleep? You can pick any class 1 spell then to fill the slot. My sorceress has not learned Sleep and not Identify either ... because of a Skald in the party as outlined above.

    Icewind Dale is much more fun if you avoid online walkthrough guides like the plague ... gain your own experience. Read the fine manual. The game is easy enough for a large variety of party compositions, including small parties.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    Sleep knocks enemies out, Archers included, stopping them from attacking.

    Magic Missile? How is that useful? It's 1d4+1 damage at that point. A sling does that much damage. Which will auto hit thanks to Sleep. When it upgrades to 2d4+2? By the time a Sorc already knows Web. So they're still better off using Slings, since THAC0 doesn't matter.

    When will Magic Missile be useful when it does 5d4+5? That's level 9. Fireball/Skull Trap deals 9d6 (or 4.5d6 for saves) to an area by then. Best to use Grease and Web by that point to compress enemies into a small area

    Shield? So you can absorb the Imbued Wight's Magic Missiles? Sure, you can do that, but consider that Imbued Wights also spawn with a bunch of Skeleton Archers, and a couple of other undead. For a Sorc to get targetted with the Wight's Magic Missile it has to draw the aggro of all those enemies. So a Sorc is going to get killed by arrows. Mirror Image? That's one less cast of Web.

    Best to just send something from Animate Dead to suicide tank those.

    Sleep is golden up until Kuldahar it locks down entire fights. Magic Missile and Shield never achieve anything close to that in any portion of the game. Short of maybe Improved Alacrity and Time Stop from Wish to deal a bunch of damage. But that requires gambling on something incredibly random.

    So sure Sleep may not be the only way to win the fights pre Kuldahar. But during that portion of the game, it's the biggest thing a Sorcerer can contribute to the party.

    You can choose to not pick Sleep, but that's no reason to ignore how much more useful knocking out a bunch of enemies in a single cast compared to what else the Sorcerer can do at level 1.

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303

    Sleep knocks enemies out, Archers included, stopping them from attacking.

    Magic Missile? How is that useful? It's 1d4+1 damage at that point.

    Enough to reliably interrupt enemy archers, shamans or leaders ... and other enemies later. Such as the first non-lesser Shadow, which requires enchanted weapons to be hit. The sorcerer need not help then and waste one or more rounds, but one or two spells for such situations are fine. And the party's ranged warrior or thief is not doomed to be an inactive spectator either when fighting larger groups, ... such as in Kuldahar Pass Canyon. So, Sleep is one option, but not the only one.

    Probably somewhat different already at insane difficulty and more ranged attacks.
    A sling does that much damage. Which will auto hit thanks to Sleep.
    The micro-management is not everyone's cup of tea. Either you need to instruct your sorcerer and tell which enemies to hit with sling or darts, or you set it to the Ranged script, which is not too brilliant due to the automatic movement it can result in. A completely passive sorcerer standing still in the backrow and firing off spells is more fun in my point of view.
    When it upgrades to 2d4+2? By the time a Sorc already knows Web. So they're still better off using Slings, since THAC0 doesn't matter.
    Web as a class 2 spell requires Sorcerer level 4 at least. Web also introduces the need for counter-measures, such as disabling party AI, so fighters don't run into the web automatically but wait in the distance and use ranged weapons if equipped. Everyone's own decision how much to manage the heroes during those early encounters.

    When will Magic Missile be useful when it does 5d4+5? That's level 9. Fireball/Skull Trap deals 9d6 (or 4.5d6 for saves) to an area by then. Best to use Grease and Web by that point to compress enemies into a small area
    Grease and Web is a nice combination. Fireball/Skull Trap would start even another controversy. I've had a sorceress learn only Skull Trap ... based on BG soloing habits ... and the skald learned fireball. Worked well enough.

    Shield? So you can absorb the Imbued Wight's Magic Missiles? Sure, you can do that, but consider that Imbued Wights also spawn with a bunch of Skeleton Archers, and a couple of other undead. For a Sorc to get targetted with the Wight's Magic Missile it has to draw the aggro of all those enemies. So a Sorc is going to get killed by arrows. Mirror Image? That's one less cast of Web.
    Who cares? ... I don't create spreadsheets about all the monsters I encounter in IWDEE, and their weaknesses. It's a role-playing game. I like a mage to be well-prepared for the odd scenario, too. It can be a lot of fun to have the party withdraw and move a mage to the front to solo some enemies like Gandalf with the Balrog.

    Best to just send something from Animate Dead to suicide tank those.
    At Kuldahar Pass or Vale of Shadows? ... Later? Of course! Or Spider Spawn, or Creeping Doom, or Invisible Stalkers, beetles. Lots of options. A matter of taste. Unless someone only plays IWDEE to discover design flaws and find the one-and-only most powerful way to win ... even if it may make the playthrough more boring. A bit like the Pillars of Eternity fan bows, who equipped all heroes with special fire arms which they found to be over-powered.
    Short of maybe Improved Alacrity and Time Stop from Wish to deal a bunch of damage. But that requires gambling on something incredibly random.
    ... and ridiculous to even talk about those spells related to the early events near Kuldahar. ;)

    Noon
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    Early enemy casters? They cast Curse. Which is irrelevant with Sleep. Less THAC0, you auto hit anyway. Less damage? They'll die even if you deal 1 less damage per attack because your attacks auto hit. 1 less saving throw? Against what? You don't need to save against anything pre Kuldahar.

    As for later enemy casters. Your own ranged characters can easily take them down. Web interrupts their casting. Summons make whatever they're casting much less threatening. Or they die along with other enemies with Skull Trap/Fireballl

    Micromanagement? You don't need to micromanage when you have a double layer web. Also the standard script works just as well with ranged weapons. Most fights where I use Web, I send in summons, just cast two Webs/Stinking Cloud with or without Grease in their general direction then park my characters outside the AoE and just sit back and watch. The whole point of Sleep/Web/Stinking Cloud instead of Magic Missile, Shield is to remove micromanagement.

    Disabling party AI? One of the first pieces of advice in this thread is to turn everyone into a ranged attacker. Web is the upgrade to that strategy. Also 2 Rings of Free Action can be stolen in Kuldahar.

    Besides the OP obviously tried doing it on their own. Then went to the forums and practically asked for metagame advice.

    As for Magic Missile and Wish, yes it is ridiculous. Just goes to show how mediocre Magic Missile is, it needs a ridiculous situation to set itself up. As opposed to Sleep which pretty much is just look for a group of Orcs or Goblins then cast it in the middle and watch as a bunch of them are rendered powerless.

    Spreadsheets? It's called memory. You don't need a spreadsheet to remember what threats enemies pose. Like how few Magic Missiles are used by enemies or that enemy AI revolves around targetting the first thing they see.

    And again what exactly is lost when a Sorcerer picks Sleep first. What spell is bumped off. Even if you throw in Shield and MM and Chromatic Orb, with Grease and Sleep that's 5 spells. It's even more ridiculous to ignore Sleep with a Mage or Bard. They lose nothing learning it. The game even gives 1 Sleep scroll in Easthaven.

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    edited May 2015
    "My hero!"

    Yes, ... that's a quote. ;)
    Spreadsheets? It's called memory.
    I need to memorize too many other things ... and I refuse to remember whether a mage is helpful in IWDEE or not ... or whether enemies pose a threat or not. I like Chromatic Orb based on its spell description. I don't use it only when I know it will be devastating. I use it when it fits into the situation ... and whenever I like it. Same for Magic Missile or MMM.

    I enjoy role-playing much more than recipes on acquiring ultimate power, such as maxing out the attributes and choosing the most powerful party for IWDEE.

    Have you ever done a playthrough with artificial restraints? Rolling a die to decide how often you may reroll the random attributes? At most a d20. Rolling a die to influence what kind of party may be created? Good luck, if the mage doesn't have max intelligence and far from 16 constitution. Fun, if the mage may not learn fire based spells.

    So, ... you are a fan of Sleep, Web, ranged combat. Does it matter? Why give a long sword berserker a bow or turn him into an archer? Just because someone in some walkthrough is a fan of archers? The player who follows your advice will need to mimic your playing-style up to small details such as movement of heroes during exploration and during combat. There are lots of ways on how to finish the game. Sleep need not be used, and Web not either. I like Shield and Stoneskin ... some people just say: avoid melee combat. Avoid ranged attacks. Run away. Kite endlessly. The first time I entered this forum, I read someone had written "you don't need a mage". Hey, you don't need to create six characters. Not even three. One is enough. Who cares?
    Also 2 Rings of Free Action can be stolen in Kuldahar.
    "My hero!"

    The never-ending search for ways to make the game easier. What does it involve? Increasing pickpocketing skill very early ... possibly drinking a potion too? Save'n'reload? Only stealing where you know it will work? Stealing from friends? And an evil thief so you don't feel bad? Haha.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    So you're saying the person shouldn't follow my advice and instead follow yours which is to get Shield and Magic Missile. Wow.

    If you really are an advocate of not telling people how to play you should have said "play the way you want to" instead of why Sleep instead of Shield? You're imposing your own style of play just like everyone else in the thread.

    If someone wants to powegame then that's their call, if someone wants to play some plot whatever playthrough then sure. Whatever balance they want should be their choice. However, it's pretty obvious that Sleep and ranged characters is more for metagaming than actual plot whatever. No one even pretended for one moment that Bards being recommended is mainly because of some story reason. Bards are recommended because of mechanical reasons. All the metagame advice in this thread is pretty laid out for what they are.

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303

    So you're saying the person shouldn't follow my advice and instead follow yours which is to get Shield and Magic Missile. Wow.

    What's wrong with you?

    Did you even read this topic from top to bottom?

    I strongly suggest you return to the top and read the comments again. Early on I've acknowledged that Sleep can be very helpful early on but later I've felt it necessary to point out that it isn't necessary in the orcs cave in response to the asking player having made good experience with Sleep in that cave and wondering about whether a specialized mage would be useful "for things like sleep"? Why did I point that out? ... Sleep isn't needed and shouldn't be the primary reason to add an arcane caster to the party. There are lots of other good spells. If you like an arcane caster in the party, choose Sleep if you like using that spell. Easy as that!
    If you really are an advocate of not telling people how to play you should have said "play the way you want to" instead of why Sleep instead of Shield?
    Grease works well too early on ... that's all I wrote.
    No one even pretended for one moment that Bards being recommended is mainly because of some story reason.
    I can't follow you ... perhaps I'm too dumb. The jump from Sleep to Bards is weird.

    The default party includes a bard. Made me create a bard for my first game of IWDEE, too. Not a skald. Just a bard as the leader, high charisma and for the songs' effects. Still I missed the extra XP in Easthaven because I didn't talk to people with the bard. Later during the game I discovered various instruments, which made the bard entertaining, and some story-things, ... so when I restarted I created a skald to better match the nordic theme.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    Since when was Sleep the reason to add a Sorcerer? It's pretty obvious that when I suggested Sleep it meant that if someone has a Sorc then Sleep should be a first pick not add a Sorc so you could get Sleep.

    Grease doesn't work well against archers which the game spawns a lot of pre Kuldahar. And again what exactly is stopping a Sorc from picking Sleep and Grease? What spell does Sleep kick out? What spell does Sleep kick out if a Mage memorizes it pre Kuldahar? What spell provides as much benefit as Sleep?

    The jump is to show that recommended Bards just like Sleep are usually mechanical picks. So are a (mostly) ranged party. Not some RP blah blah reason. Sleep is a great spell from a powergaming standpoint. Why you even brought up Shield or Magic Missile as alternatives to Sleep and justify it with RP blah blah is irrelevant. Because Sleep isn't there for RP reasons. It's there for powergaming.

    And if the player really wants to metagame then Sleep should be a first pick in njon HoF. Not Shield or Magic Missile or whatever.

    So again Sleep is there for powergaming. Why Sleep over whatever? Powergaming. Whether the player wants to powergame or not is their choice, but that doesn't change how Sleep is mechanically better than Shield or Magic Missile on a Sorc in this game outside of HoF. And that Sleep is more effective than Grease early on until the player gets Web, or at the least, Spike Growth.

    And it's fairly obvious that when people recommend a Bard it's usually because of their song's bonuses. I meam how often does someone say put a Bard because it's in the default party? Compared to put a Bard because lol War Chant of the Sith. Similarly, how many people say Skalds make sense in IWD's setting compared to +4 damage? If Bards and Skalds had horrible songs, they wouldn't be anywhere near as recommended as they are now.

    Post edited by Zyzzogeton on
  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303

    Since when was Sleep the reason to add a Sorcerer?

    This quote: I'm not the biggest fan of a lot of magic, would it be better to take a sorcerer or a mage specialised for things like sleep?

    To which I replied that Sleep isn't necessary. And that is true. Accept it. There are other reasons why to include a mage in a party. Or why to have a bard learn some special spells.

    It's pretty obvious that when I suggested Sleep it meant that if someone has a Sorc then Sleep should be a first pick not add a Sorc so you could get Sleep.
    Sure, you were the first to mention Sleep's power which you consider god-like... but what does that change? Sleep still is not strictly necessary ... as much as you may like it.

    Grease doesn't work well against archers which the game spawns a lot of pre Kuldahar.
    I don't think I recommended Grease as a safe solution against archers.
    The jump is to show that recommended Bards just like Sleep are mechanical picks.
    And Magic Missile, Shield or Protection from Petrification (lol) are not? What is your point? ... Just because some god-like players think learning Identify is a waste, does not imply that other players may find it useful ... especially if there is no bard in the party.

    For RP reasons I could force myself not to add a healer to the party. I can ... but why would I want to do that really? There are other, more entertaining scenarios.

    Creating a mage that doesn't learn any protection spells at all ... because god-like players think they are not necessary in IWDEE ... is not what I like when trying to help a new player.
    Why you even brought up Shield or Magic Missile as alternatives to Sleep and justify it with RP blah blah is irrelevant.
    I did not do that. Something's wrong with you ... perhaps I will find out what it is. I claimed that it would be plausible, if a player picked MM and Shield as first spells. It doesn't interest me at all what people think about spells like Armor, Identify or Protection from Evil ... to name a few. There are several spells a player may find useful, and you can only choose two at the beginning. It doesn't need to be Sleep and only Sleep. That can't be so insanely hard to understand.
    Because Sleep isn't there for RP reasons. It's there for powergaming.
    Ahahaha! It's just one of many spells a mage can learn. Nothing to do about "powergaming". If it is the tool to do the job and you like it, nothing wrong about that.

    On the contrary, you can perfectly well create a RP scenario where you decide on your arcane caster to not learn any fire spells or ice spells. You don't need to do that. Your mage could specialize as a Necromancer with Enchantment being an opposed school even. No Sleep. Pun intended.

    That doesn't mean you may never play a Necromancer when not adding another arcane caster that can learn Sleep. If you're only interested in power-gaming, ... you lack understanding for things like that.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    Things like Sleep doesn't mean Sleep and only Sleep.

    Sleep is crowd control, you know what else is crowd control? Grease, Web, Stinking Cloud.

    And again where did anyone say Sleep is necessary. The only thing I'm saying is that Sleep has the biggest benefit pre Kuldahar. So obviously it's a must have if the player really wants to powergame. And because of that it's usefulness jumps over a lot of other Level 1 spells on a Sorc because of Sorcs not needing AC or that Magic Missile is a mediocre damage spell.

    Oh so Grease isn't a safe option against archers? A mob type that's fairly common pre Kuldahar? The area of the game where I said Sleep is golden?

    Magic Missile is a mediocre spell. Shield on a Sorc, again, Sorcs don't need AC. Trying to draw Magic Missile to a shielded Sorc will just get them killed or put them at way too much risk. Protection from Petrification doesn't come into use for most of the game and the few moments it does, that's what scrolls and potions are for if not characters already auto saving.

    MM and Shield are pretty poor initial picks. 1D4+1 = Sling. Enemy casters are bad. Shield, no enemy Magic Missile users until Valley. Sorcs don't need AC.

    RP scenario? I'm talking about powergaming.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    Things like Sleep doesn't mean Sleep and only Sleep.

    Sleep is crowd control, you know what else is crowd control? Grease, Web, Stinking Cloud.

    And again where did anyone say Sleep is necessary. The only thing I'm saying is that Sleep has the biggest benefit pre Kuldahar. So obviously it's a must have if the player really wants to powergame. And because of that it's usefulness jumps over a lot of other Level 1 spells on a Sorc because of Sorcs not needing AC or that Magic Missile is a mediocre damage spell.

    A Sorc not needing AC doesn't mean it doesn't learn Protection spells. It means to simply learn the spells that actually matter. Like Protection from Fire/Acid/Magical Energy to cast on party members/tanks. And it also means not learning Shield instead of Sleep in the early game where a Sorc knocking out a group of goblins/orcs matters way more than it having 4AC

    Oh so Grease isn't a safe option against archers? A mob type that's fairly common pre Kuldahar? The area of the game where I said Sleep is golden?

    Protection from Petrification doesn't come into use for most of the game and the few moments it does, that's what scrolls and potions are for if not characters already auto saving.

    MM and Shield are pretty poor initial picks. 1D4+1 = Sling. Enemy casters are vastly underpowred. Shield, no enemy Magic Missile users until Valley, and drawing those Magic Missiles, again, will just result in every mob near an Imbued Wight attacking the Sorc, who will most certainly die if they don't run and might possible die anyway from archers. Sorcs don't need AC.

    RP scenario? I'm talking about powergaming.

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    edited May 2015
    You don't get it.

    There are a few traps in my last reply, ... and you've run into them. As a powergamer? Wow.

    It proves the theory I've developed. One last try at explaining it, although now I'm pessimistic and doubt you will get it.

    Slowly then: When I mentioned Prot of Petrification I did not recommend learning it. This is the major mistake you do in this topic. Again and again. I point out that a sorcerer ... especially one who doesn't know what will happen later in the game ... may learn spells considered useful. Per the spell description and use case. What do you do? You tell which spells don't matter during the game or most of the game and that Sleep is the better choice. You go to great length repeating why you find Sleep so godlike ... and I guess you could do the same for a couple of other favourite spells of yours. Fine. I still insist on pointing out that I don't think Sleep is needed for the orc cave or Kuldahar Pass. I didn't use it ... and I didn't use Grease either for the few goblin archers. My party has been described above. As a powergamer you should be able to figure out why neither Sleep nor Grease were necessary. And remember I confirmed early that Sleep can be helpful. Still, it is not strictly required.

    Oh so Grease isn't a safe option against archers? A mob type that's fairly common pre Kuldahar? The area of the game where I said Sleep is golden?
    My hero! You are affected by a Confusion spell or something like that. Dispel it quickly! ;)

    Someone else in this topic suggested Grease for the orc cave. Look again! Not me! I only mentioned I prefer Grease over Sleep. I did not tell when I used it. I guess I certainly fired a Grease spell on the Ogres and orcs in the orc cave to slow them down while taking position, killing off the shamans and casting doom/curse, too.

    I'm talking about powergaming.
    It does not matter. Sleep is a class 1 spell. Do you want to continue with class 2, class 3, class 4, lengthy discussions about whether or when to pick Dispel Magic (or let the priest do that), whether Remove Magic is worthwhile, whether and when to take Secret Word, Breach and other deprotection spells and whether they matter in the game? And then extend the discussion because you would never choose a Necromancer or a magic user that doesn't learn Sleep ... and once you're dong with your recipe, you need to teach the player in details how to play your party, when to run away, when to introduce cheese ... Oh no!

    Again, there are many ways to complete the game.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    Powergaming isn't about what's needed it's about optimization.

    Sleep is optimal pre Kuldahar. Magic Missile and Shield rarely if not never become optimal for a Sorc in a party, with a tank.

    Also Confusion? Nothing pre Kuldahar casts Confusion. And by the time enemies actually cast those spells, summons are already available to tank those spells and other AoE CC spells will lock those casters down. What else is Magic Missile good for? Summons double as tanks for physical hits and other CC spells also shut down entire grpups physical attackers. Magic Missile does what against anything that isn't casting a spell? 5D4+5 on a single target?

    Sleep knocks Ogres out it knocks Orcs out, it knocks Shamans out, it knocks Archers out. Of the four things Sleep handles, only Ogres and Orcs are handled by Grease.

    If the other person wants to disagree with Sleep being an optimal pick they're free to do so.

    And what does a Necromancer have to do with this? The TC said nothing about a Necromancer. So as far as this topic is concerned Sleep is an option and, given the situation, an optimal one.

  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    edited May 2015

    Also Confusion? Nothing pre Kuldahar casts Confusion.

    Bummer! I referred to you, Zyzzogeton, not enemies "pre Kuldahar". You appear like you are confused. Your replies don't make sense. You sound like a broken record. You're on some frightening mission. I can add to that: Sleep is not necessary. It need not be a mage or sorcerer specialized for "things like sleep". It can be anything else, too ... even a different class.
    And what does a Necromancer have to do with this? The TC said nothing about a Necromancer.
    So what? ... Have you made the last step as to optimize away specialized mages and specific classes as well because they don't matter to you or because you don't consider them optimal? ;)

    Some powergamers optimize away party members ... more XP per character ... faster levelling up ... less characters to give instructions.
    So as far as this topic is concerned Sleep is an option and, given the situation, an optimal one.
    ... for enemies that can be eliminated also without casting Sleep. The sorcerer can even stay inactive and watch the fun from some distance. My one didn't use a sling, and everytime I buy or collect darts, I forget using them. She equipped mage daggers and alikes for bonus spells. Damnit! Suboptimal according to some godlike powergamer. So what? The party still completed the game on hard without the blocker running away and without the sorceress being afraid of throwing magic missiles at arbitrary enemies.

  • frxnkjaegerfrxnkjaeger Member Posts: 4
    Guys, no need for a heated argument, I really appreciate the help you guys have given me.
    But, when I was referring to sleep, I did say spells like sleep, as I meant crowd control at large.
    What I was asking was, is it a good idea to focus a mage on crowd control?
    But, I think we can all agree there are many different way to play all kinds of games, and we all enjoy playing them, we should celebrate that shared joy and not fight over the minor differences in the ways we enjoy it.

    joluvelminsterBhryaen
  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303

    But, when I was referring to sleep, I did say spells like sleep, as I meant crowd control at large.
    What I was asking was, is it a good idea to focus a mage on crowd control?

    A mage with high intelligence can learn any spell you like by writing it from the scroll you buy or find. A problem can be that you first need to find a scroll for that spell.

    Look up the appendix section of the manual. Max Spells Known per spell level depending on intelligence. Mages can learn many more spells per spell level than sorcerers ... and even if you manage to fill up all slots by writing all scrolls you acquire, a mage can erase a learned spell and write from a different one. A mage typically is the better choice than a sorcerer so you can gain experience with wizards before deciding to become a sorcerer.

    As whether to focus via mage kits, ... crowd control spells may not belong to the same school of magic. Some are Enchantment, e.g. Sleep, some Conjuration, e.g. Grease and Web, or Transmutation, e.g. Slow. You would not benefit from becoming a specialized mage with focus on a particular school of magic.

    As whether to focus as a Sorcerer ... pay attention to the max spells known per spell level. You may only learn a new spell when levelling up, and then you're stuck with it till you can learn another one. You can cast it more often than a mage, ... but the difficulty is that you may need to choose spells in advance, not knowing what enemies you will face next. For example, some players pick Haste from level 3 only to find out that Slow from level 3 can be more helpful. So, as a sorcerer, search for tables "spells by level" to decide which spell from each level you want to learn, since you cannot learn all spells from each level. Also ... there's good stuff in the higher spell levels ... too many fine spells for a sorcerer to learn. With a mage you could give more spells a try first.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    Again powergaming is about the most optimal choice given the situation and not simply what just works.

    The situation is a party at the beginning of the game. Most likely non-HoF. In which case the most optimal thing a Sorcerer or Mage can do is utilize sleep. Magic Missile will only take out one enemy, if not just damage them. Shield won't matter because the Sorc having good AC doesn't matter.

    Is it a good idea to focus on CC spells? Absolutely, at the beginning. The entire game is mostly dealing with one giant mob group after the other. Web and Stinking Cloud also grant perfect accuracy. Even if you want your Sorc to cast damage spells, CC let's them squeeze together entire groups of enemies. However, should note that Sleep then Grease+Web/Cloud practically solves all your crowd control needs. So you'll either want to branch out to damage or buffs or both.

    If you only want to use CC spells then it's better to just use a Mage and dual or multi them. Sorcs are stuck as mages. And you can only throw so many Webs before the 5th layer is just unnecessary.

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