Leveling the ability scores?
Karamzin
Member Posts: 9
Sorry guys, I'm very confused because I played Icewind Dale II and Neverwinter Nights and now — bang! — rules are completely different. I always distributed ability scores by myself with strong amount of points and now I'm confronted by same good old — and, unhappily, older than me — dice rolls. It is beautiful, but I need to get used to it.
The question is: do characters get additional ability score points due to leveling? In IWD2 and NN they get it every fourth level. The main part of this question is: if my mage will start with, e.g., 14 intelligence, will there be chance for him to use (and even to learn) spells of levels 8 and 9?
The question is: do characters get additional ability score points due to leveling? In IWD2 and NN they get it every fourth level. The main part of this question is: if my mage will start with, e.g., 14 intelligence, will there be chance for him to use (and even to learn) spells of levels 8 and 9?
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Unlike 3+ editions stats don't ever naturally increase.
Although you don't raise stats on level up in BG, there are so many permanent and temporary stat boosters that it's a moot point.
Also, during the patch process of BGEE they've made it so that only having 18 INT (either base or because of using potions) gives you a chance to scribe 9th level spells. This is how it works now in BG1&2EE and IWDEE.
In 3rd edition it was 10+x (intelligence, wisdom or charisma) for x level for any caster, as I understand.
I don't like rerolling a little because I can't bear these uncertainties — you got bad roll? Just reroll it. Another one? Reroll until you get good one. Got good one? Trying to get even better? Do it until you get tired, then choose the best you got and start playing. It is about playing, isn't it? — for me it seems like it's not, because what is this RANDOM roll if not part of the game? Yet I can't get even this RANDOM roll as it is because of many little demons flying around. For example: I want to create some big brawny fighter if I have luck. Roll — no, I don't, he gets his 9 or 10 strength. Okay, why not weak and agile fighter? Because I have already chosen his portrait, big brutal hairy barbarian portrait, as it's the first thing (after gender) you need to choose in all D&D CRPG I ever played (there aren't so many of them, actually).
Terrible problem.
@Bengoshi - I agree with the 9INT, but didn't see it as relevant to discussion, as we were talking mages and they must have 9 INT (minimum). The point I was making had to do with the casting of level spells, based on INT, which is a 3rd (+) edition rule set limitation. You can use potions of INT to scribe/learn higher level spells, and 2nd ed will let you cast them.
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Anyway, I do love the point buy system of 3rd edition, plus. I didn't understand it (at all) when I first played IWD2, but KOTOR made it make sense to me (and then NWN, etc). Admittedly do not really know the differences between 3 and 3.5, so, to me, they're one and the same, but I digress.
Same goes for soundsets, colors, etc.
HP roll on new levels is much simpler. It's just "Luck" or "Ideal". In term of ability scores "Ideal" is really an illusion. I don't even know what this ideal is. I've just read today that it is 3d6 for each stat, then matching with class-dependent minimum. But it seems to not be true (at least in this exact form): I rerolled human fighter for testing god-knows-how-many-times and I got values of (10-x) much rarer than (11+x), yet they must be of equal frequency, and sum must alter only when Strength roll is less than 9 (for fighter), and again it is not how it actually is.
Does anybody know exact mechanics of it?
@reedmilfam, nothing offensive. I used to play only powered and fully charged characters myself, with additional goal to complete as much quests as possible, until some day I've decided to role-play Fallout with Clint Eastwood's nameless hero from «Per un pugno di dollari», and ended the ultimate goal without even getting water chip (I just did what my hero would!) But, as I wrote above, it is not question of only role-playing vs. power-gaming, but of user's endurance vs. user's ambition and alongside it. You need to have enough power to get big sum and yet enough power to stop. It's horrible.
@Kilivitz, nope, it's not acceptable. You can do it only after the game starts, so your character begins with muscles and somehow refuse them after. My obsessive–compulsive self cannot agree with that.
I'd like to put some emoticons, but they are changing to yellow smilies. Don't like them. Sorry.
- decide upon which class you want and roll until you get a roll that seems ok
- you may push the primary stat up to 18 but only by subtracting a maximum of one point from any other stat and transferring to it (but you may not transfer points from the primary stat to a non-primary stats or from one of those to another non-primary stat)
this way, you'll have a good set of stats in a very short time
if you want to be more restrictive you can decide on a maximum number of rolls
going as low as 4 (and using the storing function) is probably going to produce a workable set of stats
the average of NPCs' attribute sums is 85 (as referenced here: http://www.gamefaqs.com/pc/663934-baldurs-gate-ii-enhanced-edition/faqs/68513)
so you can aim for 85 (which is pretty high) and not go above that
for example, use the above constrained redistributing method with infinite rolls but none over 85
So, INT or WIS is only 16 and doesn't give you the max known spells per level. CON is only 16, and you don't get a max HP bonus. So what?
An Elf getting DEX +1 doesn't imply you have to create an Elf with DEX 19.
It's similar with the max HP setting during levelling up. Or with saving and reloading when writing spells. When was the last time you used a potion before learning from a scroll? And how often do you drink potions to increase strength? I mean, there are even items with a minimum required strength. Where's the point, if every character can equip them?
There are so many ways to over-power your characters. Decide yourself whether to remove even the smallest hurdles.
Btw, don't cry if you created a good aligned character and the great item you find is only for evil aligned characters.
1.
Repeating previously asked question, does anybody now how exactly it rolls? As I consider now,
A) it rolls 3d6 for each attribute;
b) applies any race and class bonuses/penalties (not race-class combination limits);
C) compares result with minimum value for race-class combination, choosing greater of them;
*) somewhere between or after A, b, C it rerolls all if result is less than 75 in total.
Yet I don't know actual mechanics.
2.
As it follows from above stated and from just experiments, average sum for different race-class combination is different. Human fighter with only restriction of minimum STR of 9 rolls mostly in 70s. Human ranger with lower limits of 13 STR, 13 DEX, 14 CON, 14 WIS rolls mostly in 80s. I am not in quite a mood to calculate chances for all cases, unfortunately, so it remains uncertain what values are actual averages for every combination.
And it really matters, because there are much less options for ranger than for fighter with same sums. For example, with total of 85 points and your desire to have smart and lovely 14 INT and 14 CHA character there will be only 3 free points (doesn't matter, free for you for dice) for customizing ranger and whole bunch of variants for fighter. I don't agitate for Jacks-of-all-trades, but the game itself does: if weak and sick young bookworm decides to become ranger, he automatically (see section 1-C above) grows strong and healthy; If many-talented "All-14" becomes ranger, he remains many-talented All-14 and nothing more. But anyone intended to become fighter must submit his inheritance, except for some really low-STR luckers.
And it goes forward to some thoughts echoing with @Merina and even further. I've spent a night to roll dices automatically and manually, trying to create a method to create (!) party in Icewind Dale. First thing to say is that I realized that for me whole party of fully randomized characters turned out to be not so interesting as I happened to thought. They just do not fit one to another. So I tried to keep random element mixing it with manual generation. For example, my last test was like this:
A) roll until it reaches 80–89 points total for the first time;
b) d6 for some ability and reduce it by this number (must reroll freely if it potentially goes under lower limit for this ability)
or
d6 for some ability and increase it by this number (must reroll freely if it potentially goes above upper limit or if rolled number is greater than amount of free points you have).
Total number of rolls (increasing and reducing) for each ability must not exceed three.
So in general I had what I wanted, but sometimes some base 6 STR for (intended) combat priest with +1, +2, +1 rolls were frustrating, as it must be, I suppose.
It was quite fun, actually.
But it brought me to another problem: sometimes it is disappointing to have too much ability points. Zealous wizard slayer with 90 roll could have his 18 STR, 18 DEX, 18 CON and yet there was 36 extra points for INT, WIS and CHA. I didn't want him to even have those 18-18-18, but WIS and CHA above 8 and INT above maybe 12 were ridiculous here. So it would be great for him to have this minimum of 75 points or even less, if it was possible. Yet good (literally) Archer with common brain and common face should have at least 80 points for 16 STR and DEX, and nobody asks me do I want his damned ranger's 14 Wisdom or not. Again, for now I think randomizing is more interesting for solo and less for partying, because, first, god knows why these people didn't kill each other yet, and second, if somebody in stronger part of the party somehow (high INT+WIS?) realizes that common experience is divided between everyone including these 70s losers, it will be good reason to just fire them and continue in less number.
And again, again, again I do not see how to decide what this "golden mean" for different classes should be. Enough. It's bedtime.
Sorry, paladin has 17 CHA at least. Let's say it was about meaning, not numbers
to become a ranger you must fulfill much stricter criteria than to become a fighter so it makes sense that when drawing randomly from a pool of individuals, those who meet those criteria will be more similar among themselves. so i don't see a problem here
edit:
okay there's another way:
- aim for 80 (approximate bg1 average...or 81)
- if predermined requisites for some classes push you over that ok - but in that case you can't alter anything and push the primary stat
- ^ but you can't go above 85
@bob_veng, I have unexpected interpretation problem, is it core language or just this context. What do this function — aesthetics opposition and "external tools" mean?
aesthetical would be thinking whether it's ok playing with an 85-point fighter because he might unnaturally stand out from other characters in the world (presented both in the game and the broader imagined world that the game is set in); you can phrase it like this: are the iwd protagonists supposed to be these freakishly talented guys or should they have more humble beginnings (they will become powerful in the end stats or not); and is there a problem with the disparity in being able to have an fighter icon on one side and on the other at best a rather typical/bland ranger
functional would be thinking how such a character would work in the game. would he break the balance and make other party members pale in comparison.
so while he might stand out a bit (or a lot) aesthetically, functionally you wouldn't notice *that* much of a difference between him or an 80-point or a 75-point fighter. they'd both be strong and valuable party members but wouldn't take away from other characters...certain other warrior kits and multiclasses and even sorcerers and maybe even bards would perform more impressively.
A high INT+WIS character would know that stat totals are a poor way to rate a character. All the classes make very little use of CHA, anyone who isn't a Cleric or not casting Wish has little use for WIS. Not a Mage or Bard? INT is fairly useless. And there's Potions of Genius to make up for that. Not a Warrior? 17 or 18 CON in pointless.
An intelligent or wise warrior or thief is an appealing protagonist. I've definitely played around with such characters.
And sometimes a complete moron is fun too...
She is a halfling vanilla thief. I play a lot of halflings, usually thieves (vanilla or kits) and of course usually, I put 19 in Dex, a high Int score and enough Con to get at least +4 bonus on Saving throws.
And for the first time, I have a very average thief. Let me introduce Bilby Rattail.
CG thief, S 11 D 15 C 13 I 12 w 12 C 13 total 76 ! The first rolling I did.
It is very interesting. Things that were obvious (for example opening the chest in Candlekeep and getting the Star Sapphire) suddenly are not possible anymore ... the AC ... ouch, it is difficult. Moreover, she does not wear any armor ( I play with the Tweaks option of influence of armors on thieves skills), so she needs to take care and not to be dragged to fights.
For the moment, she does well (I play with SCS Tactical level) but I need to be very careful with her. ANd she is not a very skilled thief for the moment but she will learn. I love her, it is a very interesting experiment.
My party were:
Dwarf fighter
Human paladin
Dwarf fighter/cleric
Halfling fighter/thief
Human bard
Elven ranger
I not using kits in iwdee, and there is a huge difference, just try a berserker or and archer, cavalier etc, everything so much easier.