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I don't understand True Neutral

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Comments

  • jesterdesujesterdesu Member Posts: 373
    Yannir said:

    What's the point of alignments anyway? I mean really, what was the original intent behind them? Other than to give you a guideline on how you should behave as the character, they are rather useless. And I can think of better ways to describe character.

    By offering said guidelines alignments help to give depth to character classes and hence make for more immersive role playing.

    What's your idea on a better system?

  • Montresor_SPMontresor_SP Member Posts: 1,547


    Since this thread has segued a bit into a discussion of alignments in general, I felt that I would post this chart, which I feel is one of the best alignment charts that I've come across:

    image

    Love it but I don't see Hal as Neutral Evil. He - or rather, it - was Lawful Neutral, simply trying his best to comply with conflicting orders. Or maybe he was Lawful Stupid in the extreme. :smile:

    Sorry for going off-topic! :blush:
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 4,819
    I see people falling into lawful = law trap. That's not what lawful means in this context. A lawful good paladin wouldn't murder children if it was made a law.
    jacobtanMontresor_SPJuliusBorisov
  • GrumGrum Member Posts: 1,911
    Some good points here. Of course you don't need an alignment system. WFRP does just fine without it, for example.

    But I'd like to point out in D&D there are the planes. Good and evil are actual things, so is law and chaos. When you die you become a petitioner that feeds one of the planes. Your alignment pretty much tells you what afterlife you are likely to have, and which powers that be for you the best.

    If your character dies or goes plane hopping his or her alignment would really matter.

    For D&D you really need an alignment because if this. The problem is that what is set in stone in the lore is really fluffy by real world standards. Hence the confusion and arguing.
    JuliusBorisov
  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    @Grum I thought it was the god you worship that determines where you will spend your afterlife? And when you don't worship anyone, you are put into the Wall of the Faithless.
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 6,074
    Also, the alignment system opens up some weird magical stuff that wouldn't otherwise be possible. Mythals that block the entry of evil critters, Helms of Opposite Alignment, and Know Alignment spells offer new possibilities for gameplay--alignment has practical as well as RP aspects.
    BelgarathMTH
  • GrumGrum Member Posts: 1,911
    Yannir, as I understand it if you are deep into the worship of a deity then he can claim you. If not
    Yannir said:

    @Grum I thought it was the god you worship that determines where you will spend your afterlife? And when you don't worship anyone, you are put into the Wall of the Faithless.

    Yannir said:

    @Grum I thought it was the god you worship that determines where you will spend your afterlife? And when you don't worship anyone, you are put into the Wall of the Faithless.

    if not, you go to the plane that marks you the best. Which is how demons can fight over unclaimed souls.

    If you deny the gods completely it is the wall with you
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,290
    The planar as opposed to just divine petitioner thing is the standard in Oerth, Toril places WAY more emphasis on the gods.
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member Posts: 2,142
    I always saw TN as someone who didn't care for good and evil or law and chaos. Like, your average person imo is true neutral. They do laws when they benefit them and may ignore them when they stop befitting them. Not outwardly evil or good. Maybe they do some cruel acts and some good acts depending on their mood.
    BelgarathMTH
  • StevevdlStevevdl Member Posts: 73
    My understanding of TN in regards to druids is:- in times of evil, druids can swing to the good to return the balance, conversely if good has too much sway then they swing to the evil.

    In regards to Jaheira in bg1 with the evil sweeping the land because of sarevok, she naturally swings towards the good to stop sarevok and bring the land back into balance. Normal for druids.

    Faldorn is a shadow druid, which fight on the side of nature to stop the encroachment of civilisation on nature. Perfectly fine.

    Jaheira in bg2 is still TN because as far as I am concerned she has a date with irenicus, for what he has done to herself and especially to Khalid. Otherwise I feel jaheria is basically TN

    I have only came across Faldorn once in bg2 and am unsure of the back story concefning her so won't comment
    jacobtan
  • meaglothmeagloth Member Posts: 3,806


    Since this thread has segued a bit into a discussion of alignments in general, I felt that I would post this chart, which I feel is one of the best alignment charts that I've come across:

    image

    http://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/32233/share-the-best-and-worst-alignment-charts
    JuliusBorisov
  • jesterdesujesterdesu Member Posts: 373
    Rooksx said:

    By offering said guidelines alignments help to give depth to character classes and hence make for more immersive role playing.

    What's your idea on a better system?

    Why do we need an alignment system at all? Most modern RPGs have dispensed with them, perhaps acknowledging that cramming people into one of nine categories is really dumb. The system is actually immersion-breaking because it's so divorced from reality.
    Hence one of the reasons why we're all still playing and revamping games from the 1990's.

    I didn't ever say you need alignments, just that they help to add some depth. Whether it makes me "dumb" or not I actually like this added flavour... It doesn't bother me that it's somewhat more restrictive than real life, after all we're in a game where alignments and worship of deities have real and tangible consequences.
  • jesterdesujesterdesu Member Posts: 373
    And really if you want real life you just need to turn off the computer... Why look for it in a fantasy rpg then become critical when you don't find enough?
  • RooksxRooksx Member Posts: 57
    Alignment is nowhere on the list of reasons I still play BG. Note that both of its modern spiritual succesors - Dragon Age and Pillars of Eternity - do not have an alignment system. Shadowrun Dragonfall shows that you can confront a player with morally challenging decisions without having a crude alignment system.

    And I'm not calling you dumb. But I've never been able to take a system that tries to reduce the complexities of human behaviour, ethics and morality into 9 convenient categories seriously.
    Vallmyr
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member Posts: 2,142
    edited May 2015
    I don't mind alignments in general but class/alignment restrictions or spell/alignment restrictions are the absolute worst. I can't remember if it was Pathfinder, 3.5, or 5e that stated good wizards would never use Animate Dead often. Me, being a necromancer of COURSE uses animate all of the time! Except all my actions lead me to be Chaotic Good most of the time at my best and Chaotic Neutral at my worst. Only issue is if I ever feel like playing a Cleric Necromancer (which I find more entertaining) I have to be Neutral or evil to cast animate dead. It has the evil descriptor and you can't cast spells opposite of your alignment. It creates a situation then where I'm playing a CN Cleric of a neutral death god but I HAVE to keep making sure I don't do too many good actions or turn Chaotic Good and lose my favorite spell
    /sigh.

    Edit: Crap, I did an alignment rant. Which probably isn't helpful with the OP's topic. My bad >_>

    On subject.

    With Druids TN can mean the harsh death of winter or the life of spring. I think TN druids have alignments within alignments based on which aspects of nature they represent.
    semiticgod
  • jesterdesujesterdesu Member Posts: 373
    Rooksx said:

    Alignment is nowhere on the list of reasons I still play BG. Note that both of its modern spiritual succesors - Dragon Age and Pillars of Eternity - do not have an alignment system. Shadowrun Dragonfall shows that you can confront a player with morally challenging decisions without having a crude alignment system.

    And I'm not calling you dumb. But I've never been able to take a system that tries to reduce the complexities of human behaviour, ethics and morality into 9 convenient categories seriously.

    Neither dragon age or pillars follow d&d rules though, which is unfortunate in my opinion.

    Personally I don't see how alignments are too relevant in baldurs gate. Nothing stops anyone from acting outside of their alignments and the only classes which suffer are ones who receive divine powers for sticking to a code. If you want to ignore the system you pretty much can do already, bar perhaps playing 2 or 3 classes.
  • jesterdesujesterdesu Member Posts: 373
    Cheers, @Dee for the informed view.

    Is it strange that I actually like restrictive alignments? Think I'm gonna have to make a new thread on this...
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