Baldur's Gate 3 in the Forgotten Realms Timeline?

theJoshFrost

So, as some of you may or may not know, during 4th edition D&D, Forgotten Realms leaped like, 150 or so years, right? So does that mean, if Baldur's Gate 3 happens - since they can't continue the Bhaalspawn story - it'll be set in that period? With Dragonbourne, Eladrin, and what not? I wonder how that'll effect that Baldur's Gate "feel".

ScarsUnseen

@theJoshFrost For D&D Next/5E, it has been announced that all eras of play will be supported in the Realms, so there likely would be no requirement for a hypothetical BG3 to take place after the Spellplague. In fact, I would wager that this would be incredibly unlikely since that would mean that the majority of BG NPCs would be long dead.

theJoshFrost

ScarsUnseen said:

@theJoshFrost For D&D Next/5E, it has been announced that all eras of play will be supported in the Realms, so there likely would be no requirement for a hypothetical BG3 to take place after the Spellplague. In fact, I would wager that this would be incredibly unlikely since that would mean that the majority of BG NPCs would be long dead.

I dunno, I think that if BG3 did happen, it would have to be quite a ways into the future (or past?). I have a feeling Beamdog/Overhaul... Or maybe even the new Black Isle, who EVER would develop it, wouldn't cling too much to the former games in terms of characters, because everything in the first 2 BG games is pretty much dealt with and tied up. Not sure though, I think the racial changes and fluff shift that happened during the 4e lore may be TOO high fantasy for something like Baldur's Gate.

Lemernis

ScarsUnseen said:

@theJoshFrost For D&D Next/5E, it has been announced that all eras of play will be supported in the Realms, so there likely would be no requirement for a hypothetical BG3 to take place after the Spellplague. In fact, I would wager that this would be incredibly unlikely since that would mean that the majority of BG NPCs would be long dead.

Really glad to hear this news! Thanks for reporting that.

There is also going to be a release this October of Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms, that is Ed's own version of the campaign setting. And I cannot imagine Ed would have anything like the Spellplague.

Personally, I'd love to see a prequel about Bhaal's plot to resurrect himself. That would start the PC at level 1 while maintaining a connection to the BG series story. It could begin in the city of Baldur's Gate but take the protagonist far and wide across the globe, since Bhaal presumably sowed his 'mortal progeny' in many locations. This aspect of the plot opens the door for a lot of travel to exotic FR locations, which is always good for adventure. And the Time of Troubles when all of this takes place is rife with intrigue. The divinities were then forced the walk the earth for a time as mortals, making them all vulnerable.

We could learn more about Gorion, who is quite an Obe Wan Kenobi-like character. Indeed, this approach is akin to what George Lucas did with Star Wars. And there's also the evil side in Bhaal's scheme, plus many other factions that have their own interests at that time, during the Godswar.

lmaoboat

I never really like prequels. They always feel like I'm just wasting time getting back to where I started.

Lemernis

lmaoboat said:

I never really like prequels. They always feel like I'm just wasting time getting back to where I started.

Here it would basically be a new story with an integral relationship to the saga, is how I view it. You wouldn't be playing as the BG1/BG2 CHARNAME protagonist, who hasn't been born yet.

It'd be pretty hard to continue the Bhaalspawn tale post ToB... Unless it's about Bhaal once again attempting to somehow reassemble his essence from the planes. Then too one would be starting as a brand new L1 PC. The ToB hero is too high level by then. At least for my taste.

Sensuki

Something like what Star Wars KoTOR II did towards Star Wars KoTOR I would be an acceptable way of doing it IMO (but maybe not the best).

Lemernis

Sensuki said:

Something like what Star Wars KoTOR II did towards Star Wars KoTOR I would be an acceptable way of doing it IMO (but maybe not the best).

So a new character several years after ToB with some plot device connection to the previous tale?

The only problem with this that I see is that if it involves the ToB protagonist's decision to choose godhood or mortality, then who is this figure? Not canon's Abdel Adrian, surely.

ScarsUnseen

@theJoshFrost Frankly, if there isn't some tie to the story and NPCs of the previous games, it shouldn't be called Baldur's Gate. Unlike Icewind Dale and its sequel, the Baldur's Gate series has very little to do with its namesake. Particularly in SoA, the characters and story are what defined the game. I'm not saying that all the old characters need to be recruitable, but like in SoA, there should be appearances from past NPCs.

Jaxsbudgie

Whatever happens, all I want is to discover minor references to all the NPCs that ever lived. For example, Nalia's final resting place amongst her family and the Council of the Six, reading of Keldorn's ascension during his final battle, hearing of a reformed drow protecting the great elven city of Suldanessellar, finding the red robes of a once forgotten (and notoriously bitter) female mage called Edwina, the wide spread songs of the great Eldoth and Skie (no doubt spread by Eldoth himself), discovering a long established tribe of Amazonian women who refer one by the name of Shar-Teel, encountering a mad old (yet well preserved) wizard musing to his dead bird (and dear friend) Monty, visiting a travelling circus named in honour of one humble gnome names Quayle etc etc

Lemernis

I should add that it would be great if the story can be moved forward in time, I just don't quite see how. The protagonist of ToB is either an exceedingly high level mortal or a god. If the story is continued in some way with another new character, then who is the one Bhaalspawn who survived (i.e., the BG series CHARNAME)? It's not that I feel hellbent to see a prequel per se. It's just that I'm not sure how the story gets advanced in the future with a level 1 character.

alannahsmith

Lemernis said:

It's just that I'm not sure how the story gets advanced in the future with a level 1 character.

1 word comes to mind: Windwaker.
Zelda had it down when it came to making absurd timelines. But I think that could translate well to BG.

Once upon a time there was a Bhaalspawn... Congrats you are a long lost descendant of them. Or something WAY more creative. Obviously.

Communard

Lemernis said:

Sensuki said:

Something like what Star Wars KoTOR II did towards Star Wars KoTOR I would be an acceptable way of doing it IMO (but maybe not the best).

So a new character several years after ToB with some plot device connection to the previous tale?

The only problem with this that I see is that if it involves the ToB protagonist's decision to choose godhood or mortality, then who is this figure? Not canon's Abdel Adrian, surely.

The canon resolution to the Bhallspawn Saga has to be Gorion's Ward choosing mortality. The reason being a new god didn't suddenly emerge in the Forgotten Realms pantheon.

Lemernis

alannahsmith said:

Lemernis said:

It's just that I'm not sure how the story gets advanced in the future with a level 1 character.

1 word comes to mind: Windwaker.
Zelda had it down when it came to making absurd timelines. But I think that could translate well to BG.

Once upon a time there was a Bhaalspawn... Congrats you are a long lost descendant of them. Or something WAY more creative. Obviously.

Yeah, that's true, and come to think of it I have even recommended that as well in other threads on this subject. That and/or Bhaal's essence somehow seeks to reassemble itself from the planes. But then are we flogging a dead horse with the story of Bhaal's attempted resurrection? Like, here we go again...

I mean if it is simply a descendant of the hero of ToB, then I guess perhaps that's enough of a connection to the game series. Some sort of new plot could be developed.

Communard said:

Lemernis said:

Sensuki said:

Something like what Star Wars KoTOR II did towards Star Wars KoTOR I would be an acceptable way of doing it IMO (but maybe not the best).

So a new character several years after ToB with some plot device connection to the previous tale?

The only problem with this that I see is that if it involves the ToB protagonist's decision to choose godhood or mortality, then who is this figure? Not canon's Abdel Adrian, surely.

The canon resolution to the Bhallspawn Saga has to be Gorion's Ward choosing mortality. The reason being a new god didn't suddenly emerge in the Forgotten Realms pantheon.

Right you are. So we'd have an epic level character.

Anduine

For BG3 to be a true member of the series, several things should be done:

A: Must utilize AD&D 2.0, as it was always intended to be a part of.

B: Must use the Infinity Engine.

C: Must take place in the Forgotten Realms.

This appears to come down to opinion judging by all of the "I want Baldur's Gate 3" threads around, but to me at least, Baldur's Gate is the story of the Bhaalspawn. That story has come to an end. What I don't understand is why there is so much support for BG3 and not just another game similar to it, like Icewind Dale. That played like Baldur's Gate, was set in Forgotten Realms, used the Infinity Engine, and has nothing to do with the Bhaalspawn story.

Instead of trying to add more pages to a finished story, why not just make a game like Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, and call it something different?

Talvrae

@Anduine i can gatantee one thing if BG3 is ever being made, it won't use AD&D 2 rules

theJoshFrost

I think if BG3 is made, it should be COMPLETELY new. No Infinity Engine (maybe a modernized one, made from scratch), no Bhaalspawn or Lord of Murder shenanigans, no AD&D (make it the most recent D&D version). Make it a completely new experience set in the Sword Coast. Plenty of series do that, like Silent Hill for example. Many Silent Hill games have nothing to do with each other, with the exception of 2 or 3.

Anduine

Talvrae said:

@Anduine i can gatantee one thing if BG3 is ever being made, it won't use AD&D 2 rules

Then in the opinion of others and myself, it is NOT Baldur's Gate. Dark Alliance, for instance, was not Baldur's Gate, regardless of it's name. It was a completely different game with nothing but the most basic ties to the real series.

Keles

BG3? up in the air whether I would "really" want to see another one given the original story line is tied up. I think I would rather see something completely new but with the BG Series strength of story. regarding ruleset? doesn't really matter to me although I think that if it did happen they wouldnt use any of the d&d versions and use something completely new...which is a shame. in my perfect lil world they would use 2.0 or 3.5. ~

Talvrae

Anduine said:

Talvrae said:

@Anduine i can gatantee one thing if BG3 is ever being made, it won't use AD&D 2 rules

Then in the opinion of others and myself, it is NOT Baldur's Gate. Dark Alliance, for instance, was not Baldur's Gate, regardless of it's name. It was a completely different game with nothing but the most basic ties to the real series.

You can think that, but WotC won't have a new game made on a rule systeme they arent publishing any books. If they start producing it tommorow it might be 4th edition, otherwise it will be DnD Next

theJoshFrost

Talvrae said:

Anduine said:

Talvrae said:

@Anduine i can gatantee one thing if BG3 is ever being made, it won't use AD&D 2 rules

Then in the opinion of others and myself, it is NOT Baldur's Gate. Dark Alliance, for instance, was not Baldur's Gate, regardless of it's name. It was a completely different game with nothing but the most basic ties to the real series.

You can think that, but WotC won't have a new game made on a rule systeme they arent publishing any books. If they start producing it tommorow it might be 4th edition, otherwise it will be DnD Next

I dunno. I get the feeling that WotC kind of hate 4th edition for splitting the player base the way it did. In the podcasts and even some of the panels, the dev's almost seem passive aggressive towards talking about anything in 4th. I'm almost positive that if BG3 is made even remotely soon, it's gonna be in Next.

Anduine

Talvrae said:

Anduine said:

Talvrae said:

@Anduine i can gatantee one thing if BG3 is ever being made, it won't use AD&D 2 rules

Then in the opinion of others and myself, it is NOT Baldur's Gate. Dark Alliance, for instance, was not Baldur's Gate, regardless of it's name. It was a completely different game with nothing but the most basic ties to the real series.

You can think that, but WotC won't have a new game made on a rule systeme they arent publishing any books. If they start producing it tommorow it might be 4th edition, otherwise it will be DnD Next

Note that I am not saying that there cannot or will not be another Baldur's Gate game, but fans of the series, myself included, will not respect it as a member of the exalted Baldur's Gate series. Just like the Dark Alliance games were not given the respect that their name imparts.

Daekeeper

I just hope there is an actual return to Baldur's Gate (the city) and the story is at least connected in some way while using the same rules. The game doesn't have to take huge technological jumps to make me happy, just more content!

Talvrae

theJoshFrost said:

Talvrae said:

Anduine said:

Talvrae said:

@Anduine i can gatantee one thing if BG3 is ever being made, it won't use AD&D 2 rules

Then in the opinion of others and myself, it is NOT Baldur's Gate. Dark Alliance, for instance, was not Baldur's Gate, regardless of it's name. It was a completely different game with nothing but the most basic ties to the real series.

You can think that, but WotC won't have a new game made on a rule systeme they arent publishing any books. If they start producing it tommorow it might be 4th edition, otherwise it will be DnD Next

I dunno. I get the feeling that WotC kind of hate 4th edition for splitting the player base the way it did. In the podcasts and even some of the panels, the dev's almost seem passive aggressive towards talking about anything in 4th. I'm almost positive that if BG3 is made even remotely soon, it's gonna be in Next.

I did say that it was 4th edition if they did the game tommorow... and that otherwise it will be Next...
Have take a look at the playtest of Next and right now it's not ready to be ported on a game... They didnt even finished the bard class yet

ScarsUnseen

@Anduine I guess this is a "speak for yourself" issue, then. The way D&D Next is shaping up, I would not hold it against the game to use the new ruleset as long as it remained an isometric party-based Real Time with Pause RPG with well written dialgoue and likeable NPCs taking place along the Sword Coast. Hell, one of the complaints the 4E fans have had of the playtest is that it is too much like AD&D.

Anduine

ScarsUnseen said:

@Anduine I guess this is a "speak for yourself" issue, then. The way D&D Next is shaping up, I would not hold it against the game to use the new ruleset as long as it remained an isometric party-based Real Time with Pause RPG with well written dialgoue and likeable NPCs taking place along the Sword Coast. Hell, one of the complaints the 4E fans have had of the playtest is that it is too much like AD&D.

Complaints of a return to greatness? Very interesting.

theJoshFrost

Anduine said:

ScarsUnseen said:

@Anduine I guess this is a "speak for yourself" issue, then. The way D&D Next is shaping up, I would not hold it against the game to use the new ruleset as long as it remained an isometric party-based Real Time with Pause RPG with well written dialgoue and likeable NPCs taking place along the Sword Coast. Hell, one of the complaints the 4E fans have had of the playtest is that it is too much like AD&D.

Complaints of a return to greatness? Very interesting.

I have a feeling you should avoid the D&D forums. There are a ton of 4e fans, and 4th edition fans are relentless and disparaging when it comes to anything that isn't 4th edition.

Anduine

theJoshFrost said:

Anduine said:

ScarsUnseen said:

@Anduine I guess this is a "speak for yourself" issue, then. The way D&D Next is shaping up, I would not hold it against the game to use the new ruleset as long as it remained an isometric party-based Real Time with Pause RPG with well written dialgoue and likeable NPCs taking place along the Sword Coast. Hell, one of the complaints the 4E fans have had of the playtest is that it is too much like AD&D.

Complaints of a return to greatness? Very interesting.

I have a feeling you should avoid the D&D forums. There are a ton of 4e fans, and 4th edition fans are relentless and disparaging when it comes to anything that isn't 4th edition.

I appreciate the suggestion, though I already spend very little time on forums. This one happens to be an exception. My friends and I have a seething hatred for 4th edition, and to this day ask one another before a campaign "So...2 or 3, with or without Pathfinder?"

ScarsUnseen

@Anduine If I might make a humble suggestion, you and your friends might enjoy Castles & Crusades. It's more or less AD&D with the unified D20 mechanic that 3E brought. C&C is often called the Rosetta Stone of D&D, and can be used with just about any pre-4E material with little to no conversion needed. It's pretty much become my go-to game when i want to scratch my AD&D itch these days.


EDIT: Also thought I'd mention that they have a huge sale going on right now to celebrate the successful launch of their 5th printing.

Lemernis

Re: BG3's ruleset and its timeline in the Forgotten Realms:

Philip Daigle has already mentioned that WotC will probably insist that a BG3, if there is one, will use whatever the current ruleset is at that time. Since Edition Next is currently being developed and playtested by fans, best bet right now is it will be that edition. Because Beamdog has to get BG2 out next year, and then start work on BG3. Figure by that time that Next will be fully released.

Philip also said they plan to have BG3 use an isometric perspective but there is no plan to use Infinity. They'll be designing a new game from the ground up, with a new engine.

Generation Next will reportedly be based on a philosophy that simply provides a framework to play D&D rather than telling players what the rules are. So if true, that is very encouraging. If most BG series fans prefer AD&D 2nd ed. with kits, perhaps Next will allow that.

Another thing Philip said was that BG3 would likely be set over one hundred years in the future from ToB. (I.,e, to be consistent with the current Forgotten Realms Campaign setting.) But since he said that, I see that WotC is releasing Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms this October, which is the creator's own vision. This FRCS will be aimed at users of any D&D edition, according to Amazon.

There is also a major development of the setting in the works called the Sundering, which will be unveiled next year through six different novels, each written by a renowned Realms author (including Ed), which will return the setting to its simpler high-fantasy roots. The first of these novels won't appear until late next year.

BG3 will have to be developed and marketed with what WotC is trying to promote at the time. But the overall picture seems to be making D&D more customizable by players according to their tastes, and getting the Forgotten Realms back to its roots. And I think that is great news for BG series fans.

Anduine

ScarsUnseen said:

@Anduine If I might make a humble suggestion, you and your friends might enjoy Castles & Crusades. It's more or less AD&D with the unified D20 mechanic that 3E brought. C&C is often called the Rosetta Stone of D&D, and can be used with just about any pre-4E material with little to no conversion needed. It's pretty much become my go-to game when i want to scratch my AD&D itch these days.


EDIT: Also thought I'd mention that they have a huge sale going on right now to celebrate the successful launch of their 5th printing.

@ScarsUnseen: I very much appreciate your suggestion! I have heard of Castles & Crusades in the past, but I've never known anything about it. A 5th printing implies that they are doing something right, and your description of it is quite appealing.