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Looking to play an Archer kit throughout the Baldur's Gate games, wondering about arrows in BG2:EE



  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    FrdNwsm said:

    Why would you NOT head to WK and grab both of the endless quivers ASAP?

    Very good reasons to don't do it. You have only metagame knowledge that that items are there and about the fact that the first level is quite easier then the others. WK is not main plot related but a ToB content available also in SoA , so the player can suppose that is something to be left for when the party will be stronger and not somewhere to go ASAP. Beginning a quest and interrupting it, maybe for a long time, is not what a player is supposed to do.

    There are also very good reasons to do it. If you don't have problem in abusing of metagame knowledge and your only goal is powergaming. But not all players are PWGamers and even between PWGamers some like to blend it with some RP and to use, not abuse, metagaming. Doing early Nalia's quest for FoA is using it, going to WK early and leaving it as soon as you have the quiver is more then simple use of metagame.
    I am not telling that rush to WK is wrong, just that not anybody like to do so.
  • FrdNwsmFrdNwsm Member Posts: 1,069
    edited January 2016
    Abusing WHAT metagame knowledge?? The problem with that view is that you can equally well argue that there is no in game way of knowing that Wk is more ToB related [or that ToB even exists, for that matter]. Seriously; the fact that WK exists, is visible on the overmap as a destination the first time you leave Athkatla, and is accessible to anyone is a blatant invitation to explore it.

    During my first run through, I had NO idea what was in it; there were no quests referring to it. It was a total enigma. The Helmites seemed to know who I was, said that they needed my aid in some odd geas they were tasked to do, told me I was still a bit too inexperienced, but then relented and let me pass. I explored the first level, did well and grabbed some nice stuff. I explored further and got my butt kicked, and decided to leave the lower levels for later.

    Mechanically speaking, it may actually be better to leave the lower levels of WK for the ToB part of the game, as a source of extra experience for your high level characters who need it to progress further ... like Sarevok, for example, who can't gain experience in SoA because he just isn't there. But who knew?

    Sure, on subsequent run throughs you are using knowledge of what you experienced before, but that's part of most games. When you are first learning to play chess you might fall for a Fool's Mate or a Scolar's Mate, but if you are at all capable of learning from past experience, you won't do it again.

    Post edited by FrdNwsm on
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    Learning from experience is one thing, and everyone becomes a better player as he play and gain more knowledge. Metagaming is a different thing, and I intend only different, not bad.
    Experience is what make you perform better in a new unknown mod quest, metagame is what permit you to use a strategy or tactic because, and just because, you know what will happen.

    The player know of ToB existence if is installed in his PC, that is not metagame, and most players know that WK is a ToB quest, not present in the original SoA version and with ToB level monsters and items. But even if someone don't know, like it happened to you, there is a reason why the Helmites told you that you was still a bit too inexperienced, but then relented and let you pass. In no other quest happen something similar, is a way to prevent unaware people to go there, but let them, or who is aware, to go if they want. This because is supposed that you go there at high level and not ASAP, but in this game, at least in SoA, a great freedom is left to the player. ToB is more linear.

    In my previous post I wrote that there are good reasons to go there ASAP, and I did not explain what they are because in the context of the topic they was self evident, and also wrote that there are also good reasons to don't do it, and I explained why answering to your question "Why would you NOT head to WK and grab both of the endless quivers ASAP?".

    I did not give any moral judgment about doing it or not, I believe in the freedom of each player to have fun the way he like, just argued that there are also reasons to don't do it, reasons that for some players can be important.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    About chess metagame is a fundamental part of early game and useful also in mid and late game. Chess is played against a human or at least again an AI much better then BG one, a far less linear game. Pro chess players spend years in gaining metagame knowledge. This don't mean that using it in BG is wrong, I told that I believe in players freedom, just that metagame in chess is a completely different thing from metagame in bg.
  • FrdNwsmFrdNwsm Member Posts: 1,069
    Obviously this is a game, and everyone can do whatever he wishes. There is no right or wrong way to play it. However, I don't think your viewpoint is very logical. Human beings are not computers; we can't selectively erase portions of our memories. Strictly speaking, to be consistent, you have to apply your reasoning to all of the BG series, not just the first level of WK. That being the case, one should only play the series once, since anything one does on a second play through will be influenced by what one learned the first time. The alternative is to simply walk into a situation that you KNOW is there, and yet deliberately not prepare for it.

    I KNOW there are mind flayers lurking in a room in the sewers. Do I take the appropriate precautions, or just pretend I have no idea, walk in and let them eat half my party's brains?

    I KNOW there are sirens around the corner. Guard against that, or just wander in and have half my group be dire charmed and turned against me?

    I suppose you COULD do it that way, since it would be consistent with the actions of someone who had no prior knowledge; RP in an extreme degree. Even there, though, you would have an idea of how best to deal with the situation.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    As we are going OT I put my answer in a spoiler
    I agree with you,
    once you have played it once a lot of fun and surprise is lost forever. I also wrote somewhere else in the board that for me the perfect but impossible mod is the one that change everything each run and change enemy's tactic each reload. I know almost where is each trap and enemy in the game, and what they will do. I can not avoid metagame.
    But I really send my thief to detect traps and hidden in shadows to scout. Even if I know that round that corner there will be those enemies, they had been there the last 25 runs....
    And then I have fun in setting some traps and luring them, in buffing the party, in calling the right summons, in imposing my tactical superiority over them. I have fun because I have earned the right to do it, because for me scouting and preparing is as important (and funny) as the actual battle. Relying too much in metagame knowledge would spoil my fun, would give me the sensation to use cheap tactics and not clever guerrilla ones. That is why I always go with a true thief, not just someone able to deal with traps and locks, that is why I find the thief the funniest class to play.
    And when I have no clue that something will happen I go there unbuffed or just with the long lasting buffs I normally use. Right in the mouth of the Beholder or the Psyonics. That metagaming wise I know are there.
    But even so I can not avoid metagame, enemies are so repetitive, so predictable, so easy once you spot the way to defeat them. Even the cheesy and cheating ones of tactics mod are so. That is the reason I try my best to avoid to be myself so repetitive, so predictable, I try to use a different tactic each time I fight the same group of enemies.
    And still the metagame kicks in, but at least is not so boring.

    I know that other players would find my way really boring, would feel stupid exploring an area that they know perfectly, that they find their fun in other ways.
    And that is fantastic, because each human being is different, unique and marvelous in his being so.
  • FrdNwsmFrdNwsm Member Posts: 1,069
    OK, good enough. Anything is OK if you have fun with it, after all.
  • LoveViconiaLoveViconia Member Posts: 196
    Archers in ng1 were really strong. In bg2 not so strong, but in late game when they get abilities the are fearsome, they could kill a mage or a full armored fighter before they get close, however they are not really a must, funny to play but not a need at all.
  • BubblesBubbles Member Posts: 589
    Well, archer is 1 of my favorite class in BG2/EE ^^.
    Reason? Keeps charname out of harms way in a logically excusable manner (so your party members will not think their leader is cowardly or abusive, in the role-playing sense).
    Oh in case some players forget, Archers Hide in Shadows pretty well too ^^ so you save on invisibility potions to be use in case the fights are really getting messy.
    I generally prefer to walk into a battle without preparing for it in advance, to simulate surprises etc unless the place has been scouted with wizard eye etc, so I need a role-playing excuse to keep charname safe from harm in middle of the party o_o !!

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    So you look for RP reasons to justify charname's cowardliness to the party, to the ones that risk they own lives to help you.
    SHAME ON YOU! :blush:

    Don't worry, I am only joking :smiley:
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