Allow Armor Switching for Ease of Use

billbisco

Thank you Devs for your love of the game and making it more fun.

When playing a Bard, Cleric/Mage, Cleric/Thief, or Mage/Thief we generally want 2 armor states.

The first state is with the best armor we can find. The second state is either no armor or a lesser armor.

For example, as a Cleric/Thief, I always walk around with the best armor I have until I need to use a thieving skill at which point I switch to Studded leather

As a Bard, Cleric/Mage, or Mage/Thief I always wear the best armor I have, until I need to cast identify, buffing spells, or summoning spells and then immediately switch back.

Allowing an easy switch back and forth between 1 armor and another, or 1 armor and no armor would save a lot of repetitive clicking for players and make playing the game that much more fun.

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billbisco

I'm sure it is because all that manual moving back and forth is painful!

Nihilus

I don't know. Changing out of an armor would be a tedious thing in real life, unlike, say, switching between weapons. I don't think the game should encourage players to change switch armors to maximize benefits as if it is nothing. For example, you cannot remove your armor or put on another one during battle either, which is inconvenient but very realistic. Think about it.

billbisco

@nihlus Realism and game enjoyment are two different things. At the moment this is just tedious.we shouldn't have to use a macro program to make playing a bard more palpatable.

Nihilus

billbisco said:

@nihlus Realism and game enjoyment are two different things.

I believe in a balance between the two. Baldur's Gate isn't an arcade game where you can ignore realism for the sake of convenience.

dunbar

For me 'realism' (if that isn't an oxymoron in a 'fantasy' game) adds to my enjoyment of the game because it makes the experience more immersive.

billbisco

Nihilus said:

billbisco said:

@nihlus Realism and game enjoyment are two different things.

I believe in a balance between the two. Baldur's Gate isn't an arcade game where you can ignore realism for the sake of convenience.

@nihilus

It's called being a Mage sir

Sertorius

billbisco said:

I'm sure it is because all that manual moving back and forth is painful!

You should view that as a very simplified reflection of the process of putting on and removing armor. Believe me, it is not easy and even harder if you have to do it by yourself.

billbisco

@Sertorius I simply figure that people who want to wield two weapons and use a bow or people who like sword and shield with a bow would similarly appreciate making the tedium a bit easier for bards, Mage/Thieves, Cleric/Thieves, and Fighter/Mages

elminster

Nihilus said:

billbisco said:

@nihlus Realism and game enjoyment are two different things.

I believe in a balance between the two. Baldur's Gate isn't an arcade game where you can ignore realism for the sake of convenience.

I'm not sure how true this statement is given that the inventory is paused during combat

That said I think OP's idea is sound (on a theoretical level I mean - how feasible it is is going to be another issue). You still wouldn't be able to switch armor in combat this is really just asking for an easier means of switching between armor sets outside of combat. I could see this being relevant for a

Fighter/Thief
Fighter/Mage/Thief
Fighter/Mage
Rangers
Cleric/Ranger
Cleric/Mage
Cleric/Thief
Mage/Thief
Bard

So a big chunk of the classes (or multiclasses) in the game.

billbisco

@elminster thanks. I forgot some affected classes. If I were to guess, I would assume that with the weapon switching change, a character would keep the shield or weapon in their offhand slot, but the offhand bonuses would be cancelled upon switching to a 2 handed weapon (melee or ranged). As soon as they returned to their 1 handed weapon, the offhand weapon or shield would re-enable.

Perhaps a hotkey to disable the armor slot and re-enable it if pressed again? It would solve the armor / no armor need at least and leave open the armor/lesser armor one. But that, would still be a big improvement over the current state.

If a person accidentally hit the hotkey, they could remove and reapply their armor manually or reactivation as well.

AstroBryGuy

The same could be said for many inventory items. The Paws of the Cheetah are great for a thief to slip in behind enemies for a backstab in combat, but I prefer the Worn Whispers for scouting/trap checking (moving fast while trap checking = BAD). So, I guess we need a boots hotkey/action bar swap button. What if I have 3 rings that I swap out situationally? Or have a character who swaps from the Gauntlets of Ogre Power to the Bracers of Archery depending on depending on whether they are in a melee/ranged situation?

How many hot swap action buttons can you cram into the action bar?

I don't see why it's such a burden to use the inventory screen to, you know, manage your inventory.

elminster

I think armor is a bit different than switching between specific items, because armor has more broadly affecting restrictions. For instance you can't spellcast while wearing most types of armor (with very few exceptions) and you can't use many of the thieving abilities while (for the most part) wearing anything greater than studded leather. Whereas rings (apart from the fact that you can wear only two of them) don't have consistent restrictions like this. Certainly nothing that applies on that same kind of scope.

Anyways, I think its not the most pressing issue (and its not something that I've seen really requested much). It also has a bunch of implementation/feasibility issues that I'm not going to get into. But either way its certainly an interesting request (and one that I personally support if only on a theoretical level).

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billbisco

@AstroBryGuy Nothing needs to be in the in the action bar. I suggest that there be the ability to assign a hotkey to turn an armor off or on.

Try playing a Fighter/Thief or Cleric/Thief from level one and try ro pickpocket everyone and switch back to your protective armor. Try not to reload either. It's just tedious. Same goes for playing a bard and constantly donning armor on and off for spells. It's not for a long time that it's better to forgo armor all the time as a bard. Before then you really have to wear the best armor available.

@subtledoctor I gret what you're saying, but we can always self-nerf. I'd like to see a level 1 run for SoD and BG2.

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billbisco

subtledoctor said:

billbisco said:

Try playing a ... Cleric/Thief from level one and try ro pickpocket everyone and switch back to your protective armor.

But why not just wear leather armor? Like, always? That's what I do, it works fine.

After entering the valley of poisoned goblin arrows, the dens of Skeleton warriors shooting their high damage missiles, bandit camp's penchant for arrow slinging, and so forth. It becomes highly imperative to get the best AC possible to avoid getting hit and spells malfunctioning. Unlike Mages or Druids, Clerics don't have the ability to ignore 10 hits to them unimpeded.

I certainly will not go through SoD and fight those army battles with subpar armor. So some way to switch between trapfinding mode to get rid of traps and back to combat mode with heavy armor to defend against missile attacks would be most helpful.

I'd hope that with a new Cleric/Thief NPC that Beamdog would be amenable to allow switching between armor states to make this process more fun.

AstroBryGuy

billbisco said:

@AstroBryGuy Nothing needs to be in the in the action bar. I suggest that there be the ability to assign a hotkey to turn an armor off or on.

Try playing a Fighter/Thief or Cleric/Thief from level one and try ro pickpocket everyone and switch back to your protective armor. Try not to reload either. It's just tedious. Same goes for playing a bard and constantly donning armor on and off for spells. It's not for a long time that it's better to forgo armor all the time as a bard. Before then you really have to wear the best armor available.

My thief characters wear leather armors. It's a trade-off. You get sneak skills, but you wear leather armor. Mages get the power to lay the arcane smack-down, but wear no armor. I never let Jaheira wear metal armor either (Druids don't wear metal armor).

If you want to play the "insta-armor-switch", why not just mod all the armors to remove the disable thief skills and disable arcane casting effects? That way you wouldn't need to worry about it at all...

Here, install this and you won't need to change armor to use thief skills or cast arcane spells again.

https://forums.beamdog.com/uploads/FileUpload/a5/6b215dcce8b028b42861a4c9fe49ce.zip

LadyRhian

See the part about armor is one of the trade-offs of playing a multi-class character. You have to choose what is more important when playing your character. May I suggest bracers, a Ring of Protection and a Cloak of Protection?

billbisco

@LadyRhian it's not about tradeoff. It's about not being able to do everything at once. Please play one od these characters from level 1 and try not to reload. It can be done. It is sinply tedious mocing armor on and off. Why not remove a little tedium so that I can cast Identify or Open a lock and go back to being combat capable.

LadyRhian

@Billbisco You can already do that simply by switching your armor. Perhaps the fact you do it so often is what makes it tedious? Again, this is part of the trade-off when playing such a character. I remember playing the SSI gold Box games, which had Bracers of Armor Class 0. I don't complain because Baldur's Gate doesn't have Bracers that go so low… I adjust. It's part of the game. To me, it adds immersion. Putting on and taking off armor is a task which takes time (and putting on any kind of plate armor is exceedingly tedious- it takes forever (and medieval knights usually had the help of a squire to do so!). Likewise, in the game, if you are constantly switching armor, it should feel somewhat tedious to accomplish, for the sake of immersion, if nothing else.

To be honest, I am not a big fan of the idea of switching armor being reduced to the press of one button. It would be like in real life, carrying 2 (or 3, or 4) suits of clothing everywhere and stopping to change them when you want to do something different- that's essentially what your character is doing, But for him, it's not just clothing, it's like switching from a Tuxedo to a diving suit, to a combat harness. Imagine the time this would take in real life…. Maybe, if you are switching armor, monsters have a greater chance to spawn, or respawn, to represent the time it is taking your character to make the switch?

Dee

I don't know, to me it does seem like a reasonable trade-off. If you're a multiclass fighter/thief, you're making the decision to limit your armor selections, or to limit your thieving abilities. Multiclass characters are already more versatile than single-class characters; having to open your inventory when you want to change armor (normally a 2 to 10 minute endeavor) seems like a reasonable trade, and it's what any other character has to do.

The answer to this question:

Why not remove a little tedium so that I can cast Identify or Open a lock and go back to being combat capable.

Is a simple one: because by design, you shouldn't be able to do this exact thing without consequences.

This isn't like changing your weapon loadout, where a character could reasonably have a shield, sword, and bow all ready to go, ready to be swapped at a moment's notice. Changing your armor is basically like changing your clothes; it's not something you do casually. Adding a macro to change or disable one piece of equipment removes what is ultimately a pretty minor limitation to begin with.

Just my perspective.

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elminster

Fair enough Dee. I'd only be interested in seeing it anyways if it was just in the inventory screen (so not like switching currently between say a bow and two-handed sword). Once you are in the inventory screen the game is paused and you aren't actually affecting anything in the game. I view it as I would something like arrows. Its probably not realistic to expect someone to carry 240 arrows on their person, much less have 80 arrows take up as much inventory space as a gem would, but from the standpoint of inventory management it makes sense that you can stack that many (same with having up to 72 potions in quick slots). Being able to press one button rather than having to click, drag, and press to change armor is a matter of player convenience.

Its also a request that I would hardly describe as being "crass" (this is directed at subtledoctor's later post).

Dee

Yeah, I hesitate to make judgments about things like that, primarily because it's a video game and you have to make allowances for stuff like that. The things that I do pay attention to, though, are the elements that directly affect the gameplay and mechanics. Specifically, I look at the impact on incentives and player decision making.

The thing that stops me from playing a Fighter/Thief is knowing that it would compromise my armor choices. This makes me think twice before playing one, and it also means that when I do play one, I'm committed to wearing Studded Leather at most; if I have a button that would let me change my armor instantly, that makes the Fighter/Thief a more attractive option--and it means that I'm always going to wear Plate Mail, because the restriction of what armor I can wear is no longer a restriction.

The same is true of Rangers and Stealth; you can wear heavy armor, but you're doing so with the understanding that you're compromising your ability to sneak around. If you don't mind that cost, you can walk around in Full Plate (like Minsc does). If you want to sneak around, you plan your character to wear leathers.

Your decision about what armor to wear is a fundamental part of your character. A button that reduces or nullifies the importance of that decision is a compromise that I would say diminishes the value of your choices as a player. As @subtledoctor said earlier, if you want to open a lock and then cast Fireball, plan to equip your character with a mage robe instead of leather armor. If you want to disable a trap and then wade into combat, invest in rings or cloaks of protection and other gear that improves your AC and hit points. Character builds like this are one of the reasons those items exist.

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thelovebat

Nihilus said:

billbisco said:

@nihlus Realism and game enjoyment are two different things.

I believe in a balance between the two. Baldur's Gate isn't an arcade game where you can ignore realism for the sake of convenience.

I think it should be treated like 5th Edition in a sense. Maybe there could be a mod or an option to allow armor switching in combat but it takes at least several rounds to switch depending on the armor.

More than that though, I'd enjoy the option of having equipment sets so it makes changing sets of equipment (out of combat) that much faster and more convenient, as long as I have the specific equipment in my inventory. It makes switching from dual wielding to ranged weapons much faster, or switching from heavier armor into lighter armor and vice versa. In-combat it would take you a round or two to switch out weapons that aren't in a quick weapon slot but having the option to do it without having to go to the inventory screen would be nice if switching to or from dual wielding.

For the Enhanced Edition there is the saving grace of that Elven Chainmail from Dorn's quest so Bards can wear something while casting spells. If you use that one mod as part of the Big World Project mega mod that changes Xan to a Bladesinger/Mage then that gives him an armor he can use too at one point.

billbisco

@Dee I think a point to add to what I've already stated is that there is a difference between combat and out of combat capability.

This suggestion is in mind with the notion that changing armor midcombat is not allowed. With heavy armor, you still can't cast Mage spells in combat. You still can't stealth or backstab in combat. This change is literally about saving time making clicks outside of combat.

Even with this implementation, there's always going to be an incentive to avoid changing armors to be able to use all abilities all the time, especially Mage spells in combat.

Can I also note that weapon switching is a convenience too? Realistically, it takes time to sheathe a sword and shield for another weapon and vice versa. Historically many shields are strapped to the arm as well and take longer to remove. The game supports weapon slots and apparently is about to make using bows and sword and shield together easier. If that is made easier, why not this? The difference in both cases is literally just clicks. The game does not disallow any of this.

This is just a game convenience that would make several classes more fun and playable. Pure and simple.

LadyRhian

@billbisco You don't necessarily *have* to be sheathing the sword- you could just be dropping it and picking it up later. In the 1e stuff I used to read, fighters in the front line would carry bows, fire off shots until their foes got into combat (or nearly close combat) distance, drop the bow and draw a sword (there wasn't as much publication of combat scenarios in 2e, not as written out, anyway, so I didn't see it as much in 2e).

billbisco

@LadyRhian Yes, there's the possibility of dropping weapons on the ground to hasten switching weapons. But, the infinity engine doesn't make you drop items to the ground in order to switch. They literally just go back to your backpack. In fact, weapon slots themselves, are purely just ease of use. Because one would have to switch them in and out of your backpack/sheathes.

Realistically it takes time to sheathe weapons, and put away strapped shields which should take up combat time. But that's cumbersome and adds little value to gameplay.