Petition to buff BGEE NPCs to make them comparable to SoD NPCs

billbisco

Siege of Dragonspear is introducing Glint Gardnersonson, a male Gnome Cleric/Thief. We already have a male Gnome Cleric/Thief, Tiax.
SoD is introducing Voghiln the Vast, a male human bard. We already have 2 male human bards, Garrick and Eldoth.
SoD is introducing Captain Schael Corwin a female Human Fighter. We already have a female Human Fighter, Shar-Teel.

Please do not fix the problem of weak NPCs by creating stronger NPC clones. Please buff existing NPCs so that SoD NPCs are not mechanically superior to them: This better encourages roleplaying and replayability.

billbisco

Siege of Dragonspear is introducing Glint Gardnersonson, a male Gnome Cleric/Thief. We already have a male Gnome Cleric/Thief, Tiax.
SoD is introducing Voghiln the Vast, a male human bard. We already have 2 male human bards, Garrick and Eldoth.
SoD is introducing Captain Schael Corwin a female Human Fighter. We already have a female Human Fighter, Shar-Teel.

Please do not fix the problem of weak NPCs by creating stronger NPC clones. Please buff existing NPCs so that SoD NPCs are not mechanically superior to them: This better encourages roleplaying and replayability.

deltago

We really don't know enough about the new NPCs or their role in SoD to justify this type of buff.

We also do not know if the likes of Shar-teel, Garrick, Eldoth and Tiax will be playable through out the entire SoD campaign.

Both Tiax and Eldoth have special abilities that already buff them above other BG NPCs

Corwin is actually an Archer (ranger kit), and I am assuming both Kivan and Coran will be better archers than her.

billbisco

deltago said:

We really don't know enough about the new NPCs or their role in SoD to justify this type of buff.

We also do not know if the likes of Shar-teel, Garrick, Eldoth and Tiax will be playable through out the entire SoD

Neither of these counter the issue of new NPCs outclassing old ones. If the new NPCs are equal to the old ones that's fine; however; the natural tendency is for new content to outclass old content which is what we advocate avoiding.

deltago

billbisco said:

deltago said:

We really don't know enough about the new NPCs or their role in SoD to justify this type of buff.

We also do not know if the likes of Shar-teel, Garrick, Eldoth and Tiax will be playable through out the entire SoD

Neither of these counter the issue of new NPCs outclassing old ones. If the new NPCs are equal to the old ones that's fine; however; the natural tendency is for new content to outclass old content which is what we advocate avoiding.

But you are asking for a buff before you know anything about them besides race and class.

Jace

Ummm, do we even know if they are statistically superior?

And even if they are, I don't understand this fixation with stats. No NPC in BG:EE has stats so horrible that they can't function in harder difficulties. Not to mention that combat success is more influenced by use of consumables and spells.

I've substituted many "superior" characters with their "inferior" counterparts (Safana, in place of Imoen for example) and I never felt I crippled my chances of success.

Personality > Stats

billbisco

deltago said:

billbisco said:

deltago said:

We really don't know enough about the new NPCs or their role in SoD to justify this type of buff.

We also do not know if the likes of Shar-teel, Garrick, Eldoth and Tiax will be playable through out the entire SoD

Neither of these counter the issue of new NPCs outclassing old ones. If the new NPCs are equal to the old ones that's fine; however; the natural tendency is for new content to outclass old content which is what we advocate avoiding.

But you are asking for a buff before you know anything about them besides race and class.

The time to ask for equal NPCs is now, before the game ships and too much more development takes place. If the devs have already implemented equal NPCs, kudos on them. From experience, the most likely development is that the new NPCs outclass the old ones. If we wait to ask, it will be too late.

billbisco

gangler said:

Kind of odd how "Female Human Fighter" is apparently its own category. Voghiln, Garrick, and Eldoth are just "Human Bards", but two females of the same race apparently has extra significance.

Seems like a strained comparison too, since the only descriptor of Schael's class we have is "archer" which certainly doesn't describe Shar-Teel. Like, I guess if you recruit her early on you can train her in bows if you're so inclined.

I edited the op to reflect gender for all. And yes, early Shar-Teel getting bows is my top recommendation.

jankiel

Huh I was under the impression that by archer they mean the archer kit?

Voghiln is a skald, we don't have a skald npc at the moment.

Ardanis

One thing I would like to point out, is that the SoD roster has been balanced to match the environment they will exist in. It's not just a matter of looking at the stats of some BGEE character and saying "hey, this guy is such a loser, let's make something better who can be actually useful" or "holy ****, this is so Mary Sue, BURN IT BURN IT BURN IT".

PS And by environment I don't mean just the amount of HP/damage that enemies will have, but other factors as well. The loser/Mary Sue arguments account for smaller weight on decision making than math.

Gallowglass

The only one we do know more about is Voghiln, because he's already in BG2ee and BP2.

Voghiln has a total stat roll of 92, which is indeed a helluva lot - Bhaalspawn-style stats rather than ordinary-mortal stats. This provides some support to @billbisco's contention that new NPCs are likely to be over-inflated (presumably for cheesy "marketing" reasons).

Nevertheless, I'm voting no. I don't want the game trivialised by scores of over-the-top NPCs, but if we're going to have OP characters forced upon us, then I'd rather minimise the number instead of making all the others OP too. If @billbisco had included a third option, I'd vote for "Tone down any over-powered SoD NPCs to be in line with typical BG1 NPCs".

Edit: aha, I see that such an option has now been added. I'll go vote accordingly.

deltago said:

Corwin is actually an Archer (ranger kit)

Is that confirmed? She's described as a "deadshot archer", but I haven't seen clarification of whether that means the actual Archer kit, or a Fighter specialising in bows. Since she works for the Flaming Fist, whose normal style is to be Fighters in heavy armour, my guess leans towards a Fighter using bows rather than an Archer, although I'll happily be proved wrong on this one. (After all, "deadshot archer" would also be a fair description of Mazzy in BG2, who already has grandmastery in shortbows when we first meet her, even though her class is vanilla Fighter.)

billbisco

Ardanis said:

One thing I would like to point out, is that the SoD roster has been balanced to match the environment they will exist in. It's not just a matter of looking at the stats of some BGEE character and saying "hey, this guy is such a loser, let's make something better who can be actually useful" or "holy ****, this is so Mary Sue, BURN IT BURN IT BURN IT".

PS And by environment I don't mean just the amount of HP/damage that enemies will have, but other factors as well. The loser/Mary Sue arguments account for smaller weight on decision making than math.

That's fine Ardanis, and I hope you sincerely understand that the existing BGEE NPCs should be balanced for that environment as well, either retroactively for BGEE or when transitioning to SoD. We will be very sorely disappointed if Glint Gardnersonson makes us feel stupid to keep Tiax around or if Voghiln the Vast makes us feel stupid to keep Garrick or Eldoth around and so forth.

billbisco

gangler said:

Wait, so you want to turn Shar-Teel into an archer, so that you can say "We already have a human female archer", so that you can then demand that Shar-Teel be upgraded to match the new human female archer?

Did you just pick Shar-Teel out of a hat or something? Why not turn Branwen and Faldorn and Dynaheir into Archers?

We haven't been confirmed that Captain Schael Corwin is actually the Ranger Archer Kit. However, the Ranger Archer kit is basically just a specialized fighter kit. It fits the Fighter archetype as does the Fighter Class itself. We already have a female human of the Fighter Archetype: Shar-Teel who is more flexible in that she can Grand Master in weapons other than bows if desired.

jankiel said:

Huh I was under the impression that by archer they mean the archer kit?

Voghiln is a skald, we don't have a skald npc at the moment.

A Skald is a bard. We already have two human male bards. If Garrick and Eldoth were competent, then we wouldn't need another human male bard.

booinyoureyes

This entire thread is such a mess

elminster

The merge seemed to go over alright (I deleted a bunch of the posts where we were talking about it) but you may want to make another new poll anyways (and let me just close this one). You spelled a few things wrong in your poll options.

billbisco

elminster said:

The merge seemed to go over alright (I deleted a bunch of the posts where we were talking about it) but you may want to make another new poll anyways (and let me just close this one). You spelled a few things wrong in your poll options.

Thank you. No way to merge poll votes?

What did I mispell? I don't visually see anything wrong. (maybe I"m blind though).

elminster

outlcass (I'm assuming you meant outclass)

billbisco

Siege of Dragonspear is introducing Glint Gardnersonson, a male Gnome Cleric/Thief. We already have a male Gnome Cleric/Thief, Tiax.
SoD is introducing Voghiln the Vast, a male human bard. We already have 2 male human bards, Garrick and Eldoth.
SoD is introducing Captain Schael Corwin a female Human Fighter. We already have a female Human Fighter, Shar-Teel.

Please do not fix the problem of weak NPCs by creating stronger NPC clones. Please buff existing NPCs so that SoD NPCs are not mechanically superior to them: This better encourages roleplaying and replayability.

billbisco

elminster said:

outlcass (I'm assuming you meant outclass)

@Elminster Done. http://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/42321/petition-to-buff-bgee-npcs-to-make-them-comparable-to-sod-npcs

Third times the charm I hope!

doggy

That said I am so much more interested in the story. Will this close the gap between the two games in a way that most players can relate to. What happened in that year until we ended up in Athkatla? How will we end up with the specific group of NPC'S? In my very first play through I did end up with the canon party. The next time I didn't and I still want to know what happened.

And no one remembers anything. There's a group amnesia regarding the kidnapping so maybe the expansion is more about a bhaalspawn spending some time adventuring while Irenicus meanwhile prepares for visitors.

Enough non related to subject...I prefer that the new NPC'S are not op. I don't need them to be. Special abilities are welcome though. And like everyone else I see many a playthrough with a variety of party members. For balance and banters.

We are most likely only going to enjoy these new additions for approximately 25 hours of game play so the important things for the devs is to make them fit in with the existing ones. Both old and new.

Fardragon

The new NPCs are there for new stories, not to fix imagined failings with the existing characters (most of whom won't be available for the bulk of SoD anyway, in all probablity).

Also, if Corwin has the archer kit, it would make her a ranger, not a fighter, and hence more comparable to Kivan.

Glint is (presumably) NG, which would make him nothing like CE Tiax in character.

Voghiln the Vast is a Skald, not a bard. He is also NG, which makes his character vastly different from Eldoth (NE) and Garrick (CN).

But the bottom line is comparisons to Tiax, Sha-Teel, Tiax, Eldoth and Garrick are meaningless because those guys won't be coming with you to Dragonspear Castle anyway.

billbisco

Fardragon said:

The new NPCs are there for new stories, not to fix imagined failings with the existing characters (most of whom won't be available for the bulk of SoD anyway, in all probablity)..

If the SoD NPCs end up better than BGEE NPCs, it is not a perceived weakness.

Fardragon said:

Glint is (presumably) NG, which would make him nothing like CE Tiax in character.

Voghiln the Vast is a Skald, not a bard. He is also NG, which makes his character vastly different from Eldoth (NE) and Garrick (CN).

Alginment window dressing does not make up the fact that that Glint and Voghiln are clones of existing characters. If Glint and Voghiln are obviously better than Tiax & Eldoth and Garrick respectively then it makes for a worse gaming experience.

Fardragon said:

But the bottom line is comparisons to Tiax, Sha-Teel, Tiax, Eldoth and Garrick are meaningless because those guys won't be coming with you to Dragonspear Castle anyway

You don't know that, and even then that is far from meaningless.

Fardragon

Eh, the key word here is "character". I am a male human science teacher. That does not make me a clone of every male human science teacher on the planet. The main characteristic of Tiax is that he is a raving lunatic, not that he is a cleric/thief.

A dead parrot is obviously better than Garrick. It has no effect on anyone's "gaming experience". Being rubbish is Garrick's defining characteristic. If you made him not-suck he wouldn't be Garrick any more.

Paladin

I'm okay with Beamdog's choice here. But, it would have been nice to have some previously unused race/class combinations.

Erstarrung

billbisco said:

Please do not fix the problem of weak NPCs by creating stronger NPC clones. Please buff existing NPCs so that SoD NPCs are not mechanically superior to them: This better encourages roleplaying and replayability.

Actually, the stats have nothing to do with roleplaying. Roleplaying is about personality and character, not about combat mechanics. Defining NPCs by their mechanical functionality is about minmaxing, which isn't roleplaying (the characters in the game world don't know how the combat mechanics function, but they do know about character and personality).

I would fullheartedly second the request to make the new NPCs interesting characters with unique personalities, but defining characters by their mechanical functionality? No way.

SmilingSword

Fardragon said:

A dead parrot is obviously better than Garrick. It has no effect on anyone's "gaming experience". Being rubbish is Garrick's defining characteristic. If you made him not-suck he wouldn't be Garrick any more.

This made me lol so hard, it's so much funnier because it's true.

uberduberdad

billbisco said:

Ardanis said:

One thing I would like to point out, is that the SoD roster has been balanced to match the environment they will exist in. It's not just a matter of looking at the stats of some BGEE character and saying "hey, this guy is such a loser, let's make something better who can be actually useful" or "holy ****, this is so Mary Sue, BURN IT BURN IT BURN IT".

PS And by environment I don't mean just the amount of HP/damage that enemies will have, but other factors as well. The loser/Mary Sue arguments account for smaller weight on decision making than math.

That's fine Ardanis, and I hope you sincerely understand that the existing BGEE NPCs should be balanced for that environment as well, either retroactively for BGEE or when transitioning to SoD. We will be very sorely disappointed if Glint Gardnersonson makes us feel stupid to keep Tiax around or if Voghiln the Vast makes us feel stupid to keep Garrick or Eldoth around and so forth.

@billbisco Please stop using "we" and "us" as though you speak for everyone here, and perhaps add an IMHO occasionally, that way it wouldn't rub others in the community up the wrong way (IMHO).

Also, how much time have you spent thinking about this? Maybe get some sleep.

Cheers

Zanian

I have faith that the developers know what they're doing. Besides, changing a couple of stats yourself is about as easy as loading up the game. 'Hardly a huge issue that needs to be petitioned for/against.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Erstarrung

Zanian said:

Besides, changing a couple of stats yourself is about as easy as loading up the game. 'Hardly a huge issue that needs to be petitioned for/against.

But if something is bad game design (I don't agree with the OP on this topic; I'm generally speaking), it's still bad game design even if it could be overcome by cheating, and it still should be redesigned by the developers. Take this as an example:

Right now the fight against Karoug on the Isle of Balduran is very bad game design. If you don't use meta-game knowledge from previous playthroughs, you have no idea you a) should bring a character who knows how to wield bastard swords and b) you ought to bring that +3 vs. shapeshifters bastard sword from Aldeth with you. So you could be stuck on the isle forever (because that one dagger you get on the island just won't do enough damage to actually kill him) without you doing anything wrong or having missed appropriate hints (as there are none).

Stating that you could simply activate the console and kill Karoug with CTRL+Y (I believe) or could spawn a truckload of these +3 bastard swords with EEKeeper (and give every fighter 5 stars with bastard swords) doesn't make this bad game design any better and certainly isn't a solution to this bad game design.

lroumen

I guess some people are upset that vanilla npcs have no kit and most ee/sod npcs do? Is it truely a problem that some npcs are worse than others? Wouldn't you always be stuck with the same party if you only go for power? ........ .............