@MilesBeyond Are you seriously trying to argue that Khalid is no good? You are insane... As sandmanCCL says statistically he is hands-down the most rounded.
Minsc - incredibly strong, minor buffs to dex and con. Shar-Teel - very strong, good dex, poor con. Kagain - passable strength, poor dex, ridiculously awesome con. Kivan - great strength, good dex, poor con. Ajantis - good strength, poor dex, good con. Khalid - passable strength, good dex, great con.
(And I'm not gonna bother going into the multi-classes or I'll be here all day.)
Basically, all of the fighters are balanced really well. They all have drawbacks. But as you can see Khalid is the most balanced, as there is no particular category where he actually fails. Yes, his strength isn't incredible, but it's good enough to get by wearing all the armor etc. you would want to. Until you pick up the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and then he's fuckin' epic.
I'm not arguing that he's no good, I'm arguing that he's bloody boring. Him and Shar-Teel - and at least Shar-Teel has the option of dualling over to a thief. I'm saying that, for me, a Fighter's gotta have amazing stats in order to be great, to balance out the fact that there really isn't much else they can do. All the classes get cool crap except Fighters, so if I'm going to bring in a Fighter, he's gotta have something that makes him really interesting. Khalid doesn't. He can potentially be a better archer than Kivan? Sure, but he can't use Stealth to sneak in and snipe Mages and crap like Kivan can. Can he get better weapon specs than Minsc? Absolutely, but he can't Rage or cast Armour of Faith like Minsc can. Can Khalid tank damage better than Ajantis? Hell yes, but he doesn't even come close to anything like the cool crap Ajantis gets.
It's like, Fighters are kind of general, but in a way, they're super-specialized. Khalid's stats aren't enough to make him stand out as anything special (he's got good DEX and great CON, as you said, but that's not enough, IMHO), and what else does he have? Infravision? That's about it. Some minute bonus resistances for being a half-elf that weren't even actually implemented AFAIK (Elf and Half-Elf charm and sleep resistance doesn't actually seem to be in the game. Annoying, I know).
@belgarathmth I usually dash though the main quest up to the cloakwood mines and get Yeslick, he was my personal favorite divine caster in BG1. Clerics can only get up to level 4 spells in BG1 so he can cast them and put two pips in his weapons & unlike Jaheira only needs the gauntlets of dex to augment his stats. Draw upon holy might takes care of the rest. EE will make Jaheira more useful since BG1 druid spells were awful but I'd still rather have Yeslick.
Secondary divine/arcane caster is Quayle. The storehouse of magic.
Come EE I'm going to have Faldorn & Quayle (Blackguard PC), without Jaheiras fighter levels holding her back she should rocket up levels. Never thought I'd see someone standing up for BG1 Jaheira.
I've always though Khalid was a fantastic fighter, Minsc can rage once per day & armor of faith in BG1 isn't a battle winning tactic. He's not made to be over balanced in one area, all he really needs to be powerful is the gauntlets of orge power. You can counter that while waiting with the level 2 str spell and potions. Unlike Ajantis/Minsc/Kivan he can have 4 pips in long sword & doesn't need the gauntlet of dex which alot of characters can benifit from.
He's not meant to be a powerhouse or made more interesting with special abilities, he's a well rounded fighter plain and simple. It would be strange if there wasn't one in the game.
I want no part in the archer arguement. He's a great meele fighter & thats how he'll stay for me.
haha well come my Blackguard party in EE I'll have neither but that's a different story. I usually give them to Yeslick when I've had Khalid, haven't had Minsc for a long time but they do make a great difference when used on him.
@Isair I'm pretty happy with Xzar, even though Edwin is better. Safana isn't a great thief but she's sexy. Viconia isn't a great cleric but she's also hot.
So that leaves me with two slots for Minsc and Shar-Teel. Minsc is the only one who needs buffs, probably give him the dex and Viconia or Shar-Teel the ogre, depending on Viconia's role.
Ajantis is also a good meatwall but he needs the dex gauntlets more than Minsc.
@Isair No she can use the ogre gloves. Assuming she's more useful in the front, which is probably not right, she can be a very good fighter. In BG2 I give her the Crom Faeyr and she KICKS ASS.
Even in BG1 with the gloves and a good weapon she can easily crit about 25.
Really? hmm don't know why I thought that then. I never bothered giving clerics in BG2 the Crom Faeyr, DUHM/holy power & righteous magic are enough. I'd rather use it to increase a fighters str.
Clerics can be great in close combat but given a choice between Viconia & Yeslick in BG1 I'd pick Yeslick. Viconias great in BG2 though, high wisdom and she can reach 100% magic resistance.
Viconia will have access to holy power in EE too so she can pump up her str to 18/00 + DUHM for close combat anyway but it'd be even more effective on Yeslick.
No Safana for me in EE, Shar-Teel will be my thief. If the new cap is at the higher estimate (300000) she'll be capable of reaching the same level as a single class thief & have 7 fighter levels to boot.
@Isair Kaigain has one weakness, he's really boring. If you can handle that you've got the best tank in the game IMHO. He's good in Durlag's Tower and if you've got a solid team it's easy.
Unfortunately my team is pretty weak aside from Minsc and Shar-Teel, but sacrifices must be made and one of them is a bad cleric, a bad thief and a not as good as Edwin mage named Xzar.
@Ward Well it's interesting. I've played through with Xzar before he's not too bad really. Better dex than Edwin so lower AC and better THAC0 not that Edwin really needs to bother what-with his never ending spells but still.
Well pre EE there was a massive lack of good axes, that's not really a flaw on his part but it was annoying. Hopefully that issue is solved.
No Monty in your party then? Hugging bears naked somewhere?
I'm actually thinking about not having a single class mage when I play through EE. Due to the aformentioned new cap. Quayle should be able to reach level 9/8 compared to Xzar, Edwin etc level 10. Thats assuming it's at that higher end.
@Isair You are right about Xzar, he's got a good ability to dodge and bonus AC compared to Edwin, and I personally don't think con matters for a mage. They're so weak that if they get targeted they'll die anyway. Apparently ogre gauntlets are pro on Monty but Safana is sexier, don't you agree? I might keep Monty around until I get Safana, even though Imoen is better.
haha agreed. Monty is more the grubby little backstabber type. I never really use Imoen anymore unless I'm dualclassing her. I find Coran more useful as a lock pick/trap disarmer thief than her. I'll probably keep Monty until Shar-Teel becomes a thief then set him loose.
I never noticed that Jaheira's DEX went up in the next game. I remember her more from BG2 and she was really useful in that. Basically gave her the scimitar that boosts attacks per round and some dragon armor - the results were awesome.
She's merely "okay." She's bottom of my list for divine spellcasters in BG1.
I'd be interested in seeing a list of your NPC rankings, across all classes. That sounds sarcastic, it's not, I genuinely want to see!
As much as I might complain about a lot of characters, they are all pretty servicable. The only NPCs I feel aren't worth bringing in your party for gameplay reasons is Garrick, Alora and Skie. Garrick just isn't good at anything, Alora and Skie join so late and the game auto-assigns their thieving skills into stealth and pick pocket rather than find/disarm traps.
I'd rather Garrick over Eldoth personally. Both have awful intelligence but Garrick has better Dex. Which as a ranged weapon user & caster is important. I've heard a few people put the gauntlets of dex on Eldoth, which seems like a waste. So he's a better archer/has lower AC than Eldoth but Eldoth has better Con & create poisoned arrows.
Eldoth also has one of the best unique skills in the game, and just having him and Skie in your party simply gives you money every so often for the blackmail occuring. Gauntlets of Dex or Bracers of Archery make Eldoth as capable an archer as Garrick (if not better) plus his poison arrows are really, really, really good.
My point being, at least he has some strengths.
Garrick's sole strength comes from his +2 Dex bonus. Out of the easily obtainable NPCs early in the game, he's already behind Imoen, Khalid, Montaron, Kivan, Minsc, Shar-Teel, Safana and Viconia in terms of ranged prowess. And unlike most of those guys, his melee ability isn't good. His spellcasting is helpful if you ever manage to scribe a scroll. Chances are, Imoen, Edwin, Xan or Xzar can handle all your arcane needs at the time.
Garrick seriously feels like a hold-over til you get a full party. It's kind of frustrating. He's a guy I tend to hack to have "BG2" values (I boost his dex to 17 and INT to 15) just so I don't feel handicapped by bringing him. Then again, I usually have him do his best Brave Brave Sir Garrick singing as he's running away from the Drizzt about to gib him.
His poison arrows are great, regarding the money - I'm not too bothered. After Durlags tower & ankheg hunting I usually have more gold than I can spend, so poison arrows are someting I can just buy.
I'd equip Garrick with the bracers of archery just like I would for Eldoth so I don't really follow "Gauntlets of Dex or Bracers of Archery make Eldoth as capable an archer as Garrick". As I said I'd much rather have the gauntlets of dex on a frontline fighter. Using the gaunlets of dex will have the same effect on Eldoths ranged THAC0 as the bracers of archery whereas the bracers of archery on Garrick (due to his 16 dex) will augment his THAC0 more than using the gauntlets of dex & lower (though only slightly) than Eldoth could be.
I'm not saying he's better than Imoen, Khalid, Montaron, Kivan, Minsc, Shar-Teel, Safana and Viconia. I just said he's not completely useless. His int is the same as Eldoths so that's not really worth talking about. I just hoard scrolls then scribe them once I've got some potions of genius or save/scribe and reload if he fails.
Comments
Minsc - incredibly strong, minor buffs to dex and con.
Shar-Teel - very strong, good dex, poor con.
Kagain - passable strength, poor dex, ridiculously awesome con.
Kivan - great strength, good dex, poor con.
Ajantis - good strength, poor dex, good con.
Khalid - passable strength, good dex, great con.
Minsc - 18/93 - 15 - 15
Shar-Teel - 18/58 - 17 - 9
Kagain - 16 - 12 - 20
Kivan - 18/12 - 17 - 14
Ajantis - 17 - 13 - 16
Khalid - 15 - 16 - 17
(And I'm not gonna bother going into the multi-classes or I'll be here all day.)
Basically, all of the fighters are balanced really well. They all have drawbacks. But as you can see Khalid is the most balanced, as there is no particular category where he actually fails. Yes, his strength isn't incredible, but it's good enough to get by wearing all the armor etc. you would want to. Until you pick up the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and then he's fuckin' epic.
It's like, Fighters are kind of general, but in a way, they're super-specialized. Khalid's stats aren't enough to make him stand out as anything special (he's got good DEX and great CON, as you said, but that's not enough, IMHO), and what else does he have? Infravision? That's about it. Some minute bonus resistances for being a half-elf that weren't even actually implemented AFAIK (Elf and Half-Elf charm and sleep resistance doesn't actually seem to be in the game. Annoying, I know).
He's a pretty good fighter, but I need more!
Secondary divine/arcane caster is Quayle. The storehouse of magic.
Come EE I'm going to have Faldorn & Quayle (Blackguard PC), without Jaheiras fighter levels holding her back she should rocket up levels. Never thought I'd see someone standing up for BG1 Jaheira.
He's not meant to be a powerhouse or made more interesting with special abilities, he's a well rounded fighter plain and simple. It would be strange if there wasn't one in the game.
I want no part in the archer arguement. He's a great meele fighter & thats how he'll stay for me.
So that leaves me with two slots for Minsc and Shar-Teel. Minsc is the only one who needs buffs, probably give him the dex and Viconia or Shar-Teel the ogre, depending on Viconia's role.
Ajantis is also a good meatwall but he needs the dex gauntlets more than Minsc.
Even in BG1 with the gloves and a good weapon she can easily crit about 25.
Clerics can be great in close combat but given a choice between Viconia & Yeslick in BG1 I'd pick Yeslick. Viconias great in BG2 though, high wisdom and she can reach 100% magic resistance.
No Safana for me in EE, Shar-Teel will be my thief. If the new cap is at the higher estimate (300000) she'll be capable of reaching the same level as a single class thief & have 7 fighter levels to boot.
Unfortunately my team is pretty weak aside from Minsc and Shar-Teel, but sacrifices must be made and one of them is a bad cleric, a bad thief and a not as good as Edwin mage named Xzar.
Well pre EE there was a massive lack of good axes, that's not really a flaw on his part but it was annoying. Hopefully that issue is solved.
No Monty in your party then? Hugging bears naked somewhere?
I'm actually thinking about not having a single class mage when I play through EE. Due to the aformentioned new cap. Quayle should be able to reach level 9/8 compared to Xzar, Edwin etc level 10. Thats assuming it's at that higher end.
That sounds sarcastic, it's not, I genuinely want to see!
I just don't think he's completely useless.
My point being, at least he has some strengths.
Garrick's sole strength comes from his +2 Dex bonus. Out of the easily obtainable NPCs early in the game, he's already behind Imoen, Khalid, Montaron, Kivan, Minsc, Shar-Teel, Safana and Viconia in terms of ranged prowess. And unlike most of those guys, his melee ability isn't good. His spellcasting is helpful if you ever manage to scribe a scroll. Chances are, Imoen, Edwin, Xan or Xzar can handle all your arcane needs at the time.
Garrick seriously feels like a hold-over til you get a full party. It's kind of frustrating. He's a guy I tend to hack to have "BG2" values (I boost his dex to 17 and INT to 15) just so I don't feel handicapped by bringing him. Then again, I usually have him do his best Brave Brave Sir Garrick singing as he's running away from the Drizzt about to gib him.
I'd equip Garrick with the bracers of archery just like I would for Eldoth so I don't really follow "Gauntlets of Dex or Bracers of Archery make Eldoth as capable an archer as Garrick". As I said I'd much rather have the gauntlets of dex on a frontline fighter. Using the gaunlets of dex will have the same effect on Eldoths ranged THAC0 as the bracers of archery whereas the bracers of archery on Garrick (due to his 16 dex) will augment his THAC0 more than using the gauntlets of dex & lower (though only slightly) than Eldoth could be.
I'm not saying he's better than Imoen, Khalid, Montaron, Kivan, Minsc, Shar-Teel, Safana and Viconia. I just said he's not completely useless. His int is the same as Eldoths so that's not really worth talking about. I just hoard scrolls then scribe them once I've got some potions of genius or save/scribe and reload if he fails.