Sandman's BG Saga Myth-Busting thread
sandmanCCL
Member Posts: 1,389
There's a lot of little things I've seen people (including myself!) get confused on the last couple of days. I would like to take the time to dispel some myths a lot of players buy into out of a misunderstanding of how Baldur's Gate works.
1) Imoen is not good enough to open chests and disarm traps in Baldur's Gate 2!
-False. There are maybe a total of 3 boxes in the entire, entire, entire saga (even through Thone of Bhaal!) that she can't lockpick through if you utilize Potions of Master Thievery. Same goes for disarming traps.
The chests and doors she can't lockpick? Knock is only a level 2 arcane spell. The traps she cannot disarm are a bigger problem, but for there are not any traps you can't simply walk over and ignore if you're beefed up with the right protection spells.
It still means you have to bring Yoshimo, Imoen or Jan Jansen with you throughout BG2, but the idea that Imoen is not a capable enough thief to bypass locks/traps is simply not true.
2) X character sucks because his X stat is so low.
-False. There is no low stat on any character that you can't work around in order to make said character high-functioning. Even as much as I loathe Garrick and Alora, they are still capable NPCs if you want to make them so.
As a clarification, I hold your Bhaalspawn to another standard. When he/she dies, it's complete game over so milking every iota of every stat really helps him or her. Your NPCs don't really have to do the same in order to be useful. What I'm saying about stats here applies to them and not necessarily CHARNAME.
(Note: The following isn't actually a spoiler. I just want to save space on this thread as it'll turn into a giant wall of text at some point.)
3) Tiax sucks. He can't even backstab because he can't use bladed weapons.
-False. You can backstab with any weapon thieves can put proficiency points in, meaning you can still score them with clubs and quarterstaves. Also, saying Tiax sucks is pretty silly because Tiax rules all.
Besides that, Tiax is one of the more durable NPCs (he actually gains a bonus from constitution, plus Gnome saving throws, and he's got passable dexterity.) His wisdom still manages to grant an extra 1st level spell. Wisdom is an overrated stat to begin with as it just gives a few minor bonus spells per level. Compared to Viconia, he'll only be short 1/1/1/1 spells per level at experience cap. He also makes a great target for Mithril Chain +4 because unlike the other scrawny priest you'd probably put it on (Viconia), Tiax can still stealth while wearing it.
He's one of the better targets for Gauntlets of Ogre Power, oddly. The only other evil NPC who gains a significant benefit out of it is Montaron. Xzar and Edwin can't equip them, Shar-Teel is already significantly strong, Kagain and Eldoth are better off with Gauntlets of Dexterity, and Viconia is perfectly capable in your back row hucking rocks with a sling due to her massive +Thac0 on ranged weaponry. 18/00, 16, 16 on the 3 primary physical stats sounds pretty good to me. That's better than Minsc, in fact.
Plus, he has an incredible unique ability. He can summon a ghast one per day. Ghasts have a rather significant chance to paralyze targets on hit and it never hurts to have another body in battle to absorb some punishment, especially when it doesn't take up a spell slot to do so.
As one final thing, Tiax can exploit an oversight in the Infinity Engine by way of the 1st level spell "Sanctuary." Essentially the spell makes you invisible but unlike the actual invisibility spells, you remain in it even upon opening chests and disarming traps. As long as you make no combat action, you'll remain invisible. This allows you to scout around and disarm traps without aggro on mobs, and allows you to open and loot chests without drawing ire from anyone watching.
4) I'll just land a backstab against Drizzt to start the battle with him. It will really weaken him and should make him a lot easier to take down.
-You can hope you'll land a backstab against him all you want. You've only got a 1 in 20 chance to do so, though, without heavy, heavy meta-gaming and planning. Drizzt is programmed with a default -10 base AC (as opposed to 10, the default value for everyone.) This is in addition to his absurd dexterity value (20) and the gear he's rolling with.
Is it possible to hit without a nat20? If you read the thread, you'll discover it is but you'll need to milk every single solitary possible last Thac0 out of every possible potion type you can muster, and your thief is probably going to need to be multi-classed with fighter.
My point with all this is simply Drizzt is by far the most difficult encounter in BG1 because he's programmed to be technically better than possible. Engage him at your own risk, and make sure you're plenty prepared.
5) Slings suck.
-What? Every time I hear someone say something like this, I just blink a hundred times and stare. Slings are awesome and you should be hoarding bullets to utilize them.
I think this myth mostly comes from people not understanding Clerics are not particularly great melee fighters. They can be for certain, but only by utilizing a bunch of buffs. Slings are the most universal ranged weapon as they are the only ones Clerics can really utilize, and Mages also tend to want them because Darts take up a lot of inventory space. It's still probably better to go with crossbow or some type of regular bow on any other type of character or cross-class, but you can get an awful lot of usefulness out of your sling. Every divine spellcaster in Baldur's Gate 1 should avoid melee except Yeslick and Tiax due to abysmal constitution scores. Just because you can send Viconia in to hurty smash some ogre doesn't mean you should because if she dies, you're out of heals til you hoof it to a temple.
Yeah, okay, slings only get one attack per round. That one attack also confers damage from high strength (rarely a significant value on the people limited to slings but there are common buff spells and equipment that will get you there) and it's not like you can't attack and immediately cast a spell afterwards in the Infinity Engine. That one attack is still an attack and is more useful than wielding a melee weapon on a guy like Edwin who's never going to score a hit with a quarterstaff and puts himself in significant harm's way attempting to do so.
6) Clerics are infinitely better than druids.
-I prefer a cleric to a druid myself, but the belief that druids are not worthwhile is false. Druids do a lot of things well.
For Baldur's Gate 1, a single class druid can get to level 10 while a cleric can only hit level 8. This means the druid can also gain access to level 5 divine spells. It's just animal summoning II and cure critical wounds, but hey those are pretty awesome spells. In any mod that runs BG1 through the BG2 engine (and likely BG:EE), it also includes Cause Critical Wounds, Mass Cure, Insect Plague, Iron Skin, Magic Resistance, Pixie Dust, True Seeing and Chaotic Commands. All of those are pretty awesome spells.
Druids also are not very stat reliant. If you make a Bhaalspawn druid, the only thing you'll ever really need is Wisdom, which makes them good charisma monkeys (especially combined with their high base for the class.) Why? Shapeshifting sets your physical stats to that of the creature you shifted into. Doesn't matter if you dude has 3 str, 3 dex and 3 con naturally; he'll still be just as good as a wolf or a bear.
Druids have two of the most powerful kits in all of BG2. Totemic Druids, the only ones you'll have to worry about getting a good roll on, have a borderline broken ability to summon creatures immune to normal and +1 weapons just as a class feat. Avenger shapeshifting forms are quite deadly early on, and you can actually fling out some deadly damaging spells. The hit to strength and constitution that plagues avengers is not as much of a drawback as you might imagine seeing as druids don't really need strength (especially an avenger who's going to spend most his time in melee as a spider or wyvern) and constitution bonuses cap out for druids at 16 anyway.
Yeah, okay, the huge gap between 14 and 15 is a pain but even at just 14 you shouldn't struggle to be useful considering you'll still have a ton of spells and your epic level spells/shapeshifting feats are all quite devastating. Even at 14, a druid is a better summoner than a cleric because Animal Summoning is actually quite good. Even animal summoning 1 has a chance of dropping in some really beefy, dangerous creatures.
As a final bonus in the druid vs. cleric debate, they have access to better weaponry for a large portion of the game. Spears are better than quarterstaves for when you run out of ammo because the longer reach means you can safely melee from behind your devoted fighters (and the Ixil's Spike or whatever it's called in BG2 is amaaaazing), and there are a large number of good scimitar weapons. In fact, taking proficiency in scimitars lets you utilize the level 2 spell Flame Blade better than a cleric does.
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I'm sure I'll think of more things. If you guys can think of anything silly you hear people saying with consistency, feel free to chime in and I'll edit it into this post.
update 1: Updated info on Drizzt encounter, info on exactly why Tiax is one of the most powerful NPCs in BG1, and added a little more insight into why Wisdom is an overrated stat.
update 2: Added myth 5, clarification on stats discussion, and Tiax' Sanctuary abuse. Also added myth that druids suck.
1) Imoen is not good enough to open chests and disarm traps in Baldur's Gate 2!
-False. There are maybe a total of 3 boxes in the entire, entire, entire saga (even through Thone of Bhaal!) that she can't lockpick through if you utilize Potions of Master Thievery. Same goes for disarming traps.
The chests and doors she can't lockpick? Knock is only a level 2 arcane spell. The traps she cannot disarm are a bigger problem, but for there are not any traps you can't simply walk over and ignore if you're beefed up with the right protection spells.
It still means you have to bring Yoshimo, Imoen or Jan Jansen with you throughout BG2, but the idea that Imoen is not a capable enough thief to bypass locks/traps is simply not true.
2) X character sucks because his X stat is so low.
-False. There is no low stat on any character that you can't work around in order to make said character high-functioning. Even as much as I loathe Garrick and Alora, they are still capable NPCs if you want to make them so.
As a clarification, I hold your Bhaalspawn to another standard. When he/she dies, it's complete game over so milking every iota of every stat really helps him or her. Your NPCs don't really have to do the same in order to be useful. What I'm saying about stats here applies to them and not necessarily CHARNAME.
(Note: The following isn't actually a spoiler. I just want to save space on this thread as it'll turn into a giant wall of text at some point.)
Does said character need strength? The level 2 arcane spell "strength" gives 18/01 strength for a game hour/level. That's 3 hours minimum when cast from a spell book. The buff lasts a really, really long time. True, it is in a really important spell slot for arcane casters from a self-buff standpoint (blur and mirror image, notably) but if you have more than one arcane guy, chances are you can spare a cast or two for the guys who legitimately could use the boost to strength.
Does said character need dexterity? Gauntlets of Dexterity are an obvious fix. They are probably the most sought-after piece of gear in the game from a usefulness standpoint (there are 5 NPCs in BG1 who basically NEED them to be useful and several more who benefit greatly from them), but even without it potions of Dexterity work in a pinch. They are cheap and last 15 turns. I forget exactly how long a turn is in terms of game-play time, but generally speaking it is long enough that it'll be up until you need to rest again. You should easily be able to clear any given zone in BG1 before they wear off. Also, dexterity only truly matters for your melee NPCs because while it's nice to have a thac0 bonus to ranged weaponry while spells are down, the value of casters has and never will be in auto-attacks. Your mages, bards and clerics should never really need to enter the scrum of melee and I assume you're all smart enough to know how to make them work as a bruiser if you want to.
Does character need constitution? Constitution is somewhat overrated. It is only significantly helpful on warrior classes as everyone else caps at simply +2 hp a level even if they go above 16 CON. The only guys where their tiny constitutions are actually a liability is Xan and Xzar, as single-class mages are pretty squishy. Throughout the entire saga, it is for sure overrated on any non-warrior because it equates to a whopping 18 extra HP. Constitution bonuses only apply on levels you gain up to the 161k XP cap in BG1. All the guys with really low constitution should really not be getting hit, anyway. Slings are your friends. Use them on everyone when in doubt. It's the only thing there is not a particularly good "fix" for, but it simply isn't that important.
Low INT on a mage/bard? Potion of Genius + Potion of Mind Focusing. The +INT from both stack. It means you'll need to stock up on a bunch of spells you want to learn before you start attempting scribing them but even Garrick and Eldoth don't struggle writing spells when you're sitting on 20 INT, plus you can keep any spell you write in your book even after your INT drops again. Any spells you write in your books are permanently known even if you no longer have the INT to have that many known spells. Ideal? No. Does it work? Yes.
Low Wisdom on a Cleric? Who cares? Wisdom is highly overrated when it comes to your NPCs. 18 Wisdom only nets you a bonus 2/2/1/1 cleric spells per day. After you're at level 5 or so, I'd be shocked to learn people actually utilize every single solitary last spell slot on every single level before they bother to rest and restock. Yeah it's nice, obviously. It's just not terribly NEEDED. Unlike strength for warriors and dexterity for thieves, you don't need a high wisdom to still be a capable wisdom. Case in point is the cleric capabilities of Quayle. Most people see 10 wisdom and balk because he gets no bonus spells per day, but let's look at this through XP cap glasses. Compared to Branwen, Quayle is only short 2/2/1/1 divine spells per day at level cap comparatively. It hinders a cleric more at low levels, but then again by the time the two lowest WIS clerics join you, you're already halfway or more through the game.
Low Charisma? Who cares. It's such an unimportant stat for your NPCs, no one even bothers to point it out on guys like Kivan or Quayle.
All benefits it brings to the party is simply by way of shop discounts, and for that all you need is Imoen, Garrick, Xan or Eldoth casting the level 2 mage spell "Friends" on themselves. Alternatively, you can get really close to the charisma discount cap by equipping Algernon's Cloak on Ajantis or
Does said character need dexterity? Gauntlets of Dexterity are an obvious fix. They are probably the most sought-after piece of gear in the game from a usefulness standpoint (there are 5 NPCs in BG1 who basically NEED them to be useful and several more who benefit greatly from them), but even without it potions of Dexterity work in a pinch. They are cheap and last 15 turns. I forget exactly how long a turn is in terms of game-play time, but generally speaking it is long enough that it'll be up until you need to rest again. You should easily be able to clear any given zone in BG1 before they wear off. Also, dexterity only truly matters for your melee NPCs because while it's nice to have a thac0 bonus to ranged weaponry while spells are down, the value of casters has and never will be in auto-attacks. Your mages, bards and clerics should never really need to enter the scrum of melee and I assume you're all smart enough to know how to make them work as a bruiser if you want to.
Does character need constitution? Constitution is somewhat overrated. It is only significantly helpful on warrior classes as everyone else caps at simply +2 hp a level even if they go above 16 CON. The only guys where their tiny constitutions are actually a liability is Xan and Xzar, as single-class mages are pretty squishy. Throughout the entire saga, it is for sure overrated on any non-warrior because it equates to a whopping 18 extra HP. Constitution bonuses only apply on levels you gain up to the 161k XP cap in BG1. All the guys with really low constitution should really not be getting hit, anyway. Slings are your friends. Use them on everyone when in doubt. It's the only thing there is not a particularly good "fix" for, but it simply isn't that important.
Low INT on a mage/bard? Potion of Genius + Potion of Mind Focusing. The +INT from both stack. It means you'll need to stock up on a bunch of spells you want to learn before you start attempting scribing them but even Garrick and Eldoth don't struggle writing spells when you're sitting on 20 INT, plus you can keep any spell you write in your book even after your INT drops again. Any spells you write in your books are permanently known even if you no longer have the INT to have that many known spells. Ideal? No. Does it work? Yes.
Low Wisdom on a Cleric? Who cares? Wisdom is highly overrated when it comes to your NPCs. 18 Wisdom only nets you a bonus 2/2/1/1 cleric spells per day. After you're at level 5 or so, I'd be shocked to learn people actually utilize every single solitary last spell slot on every single level before they bother to rest and restock. Yeah it's nice, obviously. It's just not terribly NEEDED. Unlike strength for warriors and dexterity for thieves, you don't need a high wisdom to still be a capable wisdom. Case in point is the cleric capabilities of Quayle. Most people see 10 wisdom and balk because he gets no bonus spells per day, but let's look at this through XP cap glasses. Compared to Branwen, Quayle is only short 2/2/1/1 divine spells per day at level cap comparatively. It hinders a cleric more at low levels, but then again by the time the two lowest WIS clerics join you, you're already halfway or more through the game.
Low Charisma? Who cares. It's such an unimportant stat for your NPCs, no one even bothers to point it out on guys like Kivan or Quayle.
All benefits it brings to the party is simply by way of shop discounts, and for that all you need is Imoen, Garrick, Xan or Eldoth casting the level 2 mage spell "Friends" on themselves. Alternatively, you can get really close to the charisma discount cap by equipping Algernon's Cloak on Ajantis or 3) Tiax sucks. He can't even backstab because he can't use bladed weapons.
-False. You can backstab with any weapon thieves can put proficiency points in, meaning you can still score them with clubs and quarterstaves. Also, saying Tiax sucks is pretty silly because Tiax rules all.
Besides that, Tiax is one of the more durable NPCs (he actually gains a bonus from constitution, plus Gnome saving throws, and he's got passable dexterity.) His wisdom still manages to grant an extra 1st level spell. Wisdom is an overrated stat to begin with as it just gives a few minor bonus spells per level. Compared to Viconia, he'll only be short 1/1/1/1 spells per level at experience cap. He also makes a great target for Mithril Chain +4 because unlike the other scrawny priest you'd probably put it on (Viconia), Tiax can still stealth while wearing it.
He's one of the better targets for Gauntlets of Ogre Power, oddly. The only other evil NPC who gains a significant benefit out of it is Montaron. Xzar and Edwin can't equip them, Shar-Teel is already significantly strong, Kagain and Eldoth are better off with Gauntlets of Dexterity, and Viconia is perfectly capable in your back row hucking rocks with a sling due to her massive +Thac0 on ranged weaponry. 18/00, 16, 16 on the 3 primary physical stats sounds pretty good to me. That's better than Minsc, in fact.
Plus, he has an incredible unique ability. He can summon a ghast one per day. Ghasts have a rather significant chance to paralyze targets on hit and it never hurts to have another body in battle to absorb some punishment, especially when it doesn't take up a spell slot to do so.
As one final thing, Tiax can exploit an oversight in the Infinity Engine by way of the 1st level spell "Sanctuary." Essentially the spell makes you invisible but unlike the actual invisibility spells, you remain in it even upon opening chests and disarming traps. As long as you make no combat action, you'll remain invisible. This allows you to scout around and disarm traps without aggro on mobs, and allows you to open and loot chests without drawing ire from anyone watching.
4) I'll just land a backstab against Drizzt to start the battle with him. It will really weaken him and should make him a lot easier to take down.
-You can hope you'll land a backstab against him all you want. You've only got a 1 in 20 chance to do so, though, without heavy, heavy meta-gaming and planning. Drizzt is programmed with a default -10 base AC (as opposed to 10, the default value for everyone.) This is in addition to his absurd dexterity value (20) and the gear he's rolling with.
Is it possible to hit without a nat20? If you read the thread, you'll discover it is but you'll need to milk every single solitary possible last Thac0 out of every possible potion type you can muster, and your thief is probably going to need to be multi-classed with fighter.
My point with all this is simply Drizzt is by far the most difficult encounter in BG1 because he's programmed to be technically better than possible. Engage him at your own risk, and make sure you're plenty prepared.
5) Slings suck.
-What? Every time I hear someone say something like this, I just blink a hundred times and stare. Slings are awesome and you should be hoarding bullets to utilize them.
I think this myth mostly comes from people not understanding Clerics are not particularly great melee fighters. They can be for certain, but only by utilizing a bunch of buffs. Slings are the most universal ranged weapon as they are the only ones Clerics can really utilize, and Mages also tend to want them because Darts take up a lot of inventory space. It's still probably better to go with crossbow or some type of regular bow on any other type of character or cross-class, but you can get an awful lot of usefulness out of your sling. Every divine spellcaster in Baldur's Gate 1 should avoid melee except Yeslick and Tiax due to abysmal constitution scores. Just because you can send Viconia in to hurty smash some ogre doesn't mean you should because if she dies, you're out of heals til you hoof it to a temple.
Yeah, okay, slings only get one attack per round. That one attack also confers damage from high strength (rarely a significant value on the people limited to slings but there are common buff spells and equipment that will get you there) and it's not like you can't attack and immediately cast a spell afterwards in the Infinity Engine. That one attack is still an attack and is more useful than wielding a melee weapon on a guy like Edwin who's never going to score a hit with a quarterstaff and puts himself in significant harm's way attempting to do so.
6) Clerics are infinitely better than druids.
-I prefer a cleric to a druid myself, but the belief that druids are not worthwhile is false. Druids do a lot of things well.
For Baldur's Gate 1, a single class druid can get to level 10 while a cleric can only hit level 8. This means the druid can also gain access to level 5 divine spells. It's just animal summoning II and cure critical wounds, but hey those are pretty awesome spells. In any mod that runs BG1 through the BG2 engine (and likely BG:EE), it also includes Cause Critical Wounds, Mass Cure, Insect Plague, Iron Skin, Magic Resistance, Pixie Dust, True Seeing and Chaotic Commands. All of those are pretty awesome spells.
Druids also are not very stat reliant. If you make a Bhaalspawn druid, the only thing you'll ever really need is Wisdom, which makes them good charisma monkeys (especially combined with their high base for the class.) Why? Shapeshifting sets your physical stats to that of the creature you shifted into. Doesn't matter if you dude has 3 str, 3 dex and 3 con naturally; he'll still be just as good as a wolf or a bear.
Druids have two of the most powerful kits in all of BG2. Totemic Druids, the only ones you'll have to worry about getting a good roll on, have a borderline broken ability to summon creatures immune to normal and +1 weapons just as a class feat. Avenger shapeshifting forms are quite deadly early on, and you can actually fling out some deadly damaging spells. The hit to strength and constitution that plagues avengers is not as much of a drawback as you might imagine seeing as druids don't really need strength (especially an avenger who's going to spend most his time in melee as a spider or wyvern) and constitution bonuses cap out for druids at 16 anyway.
Yeah, okay, the huge gap between 14 and 15 is a pain but even at just 14 you shouldn't struggle to be useful considering you'll still have a ton of spells and your epic level spells/shapeshifting feats are all quite devastating. Even at 14, a druid is a better summoner than a cleric because Animal Summoning is actually quite good. Even animal summoning 1 has a chance of dropping in some really beefy, dangerous creatures.
As a final bonus in the druid vs. cleric debate, they have access to better weaponry for a large portion of the game. Spears are better than quarterstaves for when you run out of ammo because the longer reach means you can safely melee from behind your devoted fighters (and the Ixil's Spike or whatever it's called in BG2 is amaaaazing), and there are a large number of good scimitar weapons. In fact, taking proficiency in scimitars lets you utilize the level 2 spell Flame Blade better than a cleric does.
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I'm sure I'll think of more things. If you guys can think of anything silly you hear people saying with consistency, feel free to chime in and I'll edit it into this post.
update 1: Updated info on Drizzt encounter, info on exactly why Tiax is one of the most powerful NPCs in BG1, and added a little more insight into why Wisdom is an overrated stat.
update 2: Added myth 5, clarification on stats discussion, and Tiax' Sanctuary abuse. Also added myth that druids suck.
Post edited by sandmanCCL on
11
Comments
Charisma is even more of a joke in BG2. Ring of Human Influence (in BG2 and a mod of BG1) basically eliminates makes your stat score irrelevant. Why does 2nd edition commit CHA to be the dump stat?
And why, when ppl roleplay a low CHA, do they always say, "that doesn't mean my character is ugly, just difficult to deal with"
It's possible the armor doesn't lower his AC at all. Even if that's the case, he's at -16. I don't see a way with the level cap of 161k XP on any single possible class with any single possible gear available in BG1 to hit him without a nat20. I don't think the bonus to attack you get from stealth is enough, even.
My whole point, really, was just to highlight Drizzt is intentionally more difficult than is reasonable to defeat without abusing game mechanics.
@Silence: Right. I know about the gloves, but that only affects 1 guy. It's just that there's a way to effectively boost the strength of literally anyone, WITHOUT equipment. Dexterity you are forced into gear/potions, but strength is a really easy thing to "fix" with low level spells. That was my point there.
Chain mail is AC 5 Mithril Chain (aka +4) makes that AC 1. As for him having hard coded AC of -10 that I believe is the lowest possible armor class possible in 1e and 2e rules. So basically he's AC -10 period. Twinkle the sword is great for parrying attacks...if one actually knows the attack is coming. However a backstab is only possible if the thief is undetected. So it should not matter that he also has a Dex bonus of -4....as -10 is the max AC in those rule sets. (unless they cheated for the CRPG) (I admit its been about 3 decades since I played AD&D so the details of THAC0 are fuzze and AC ratings as well but I do believe -10 was the best you could get)
I also know Chain Mail +4 works. I'm saying that as far as the game is concerned, Drizzt's Mithril Chain +4 is actually just an AC1 Chain Mail. You can still equip a ring of protection and gain another -1 AC. Whether it's because it's a bug, an oversight, or working as intended is unknown.
If -10 AC is the max no matter what anyway, you'd need a roll of 26 on a level 10 thief, the highest level you can get with them in BG1. Let's pretend you're a Half-Orc with 20 strength, somehow have 2 ranks in a proficiency which is impossible for a solo rogue, and are rolling around with a +3 weapon (the highest enchantment available on anything in BG1). That would give you +7 thac0. Bless from a priest gives you another +1.
So theoretically, 19/20 strength on a rogue at max level with everything I just mentioned could land a hit on -10 AC with an 18. Odds are still slim you're going to land that hit, and all this is again assuming AC caps in the Infinity Engine. I am pretty sure I've managed to get AC lower than -10 in BG2 but I don't know if it had any effect.
@LadyRhian:
Khalid never ran off due to morale failure on my gnome cleric/thief playthrough, when my dude only had 6 charisma either. I fail to see how Charisma matters a single solitary iota. I have not read anywhere how Charisma has influence over Morale. If you have a link to something explaining the mechanics, I'd love to read it.
Some other threads to this effect:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/1967
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/503/request-bonuses-for-high-charisma-score#latest
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/53076/#Comment_53076
It would be even easier with a fighter/cleric/mage. All on XP cap of course
Just checked - Drizzt's BASE Armor Class is -10, it is not lowered by either the Defender Scimitar nor his armor. It is lowered by dexterity, that is for 4 total. -14 then. His Base THAC0 is 0 though.
Also, I am pretty sure that a backstab has a +4 to hit bonus, no?
I now know that, in the past, I have missed half the game as far as roleplaying. With the low charisma, I was getting maybe one line from every peasant or householder I clicked. Now, all of a sudden, they open up, they recognize that I'm a bard and ask me to sing some tunes for them, and they all have, like, a dozen menu choices with branches to other big menus in their dialogue choices. I'm having an awesome time rediscovering the game with my new high charisma.
THAC0 with 18/00 STR, two stars in quarterstaff with a normal quarterstaff equipped:
10
add Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise (+1), Potion of Storm Giant Strength (net +3), Potion of Power (+1), Bless (+1), Chant (+1), the TotSC quarterstaff+3 and the +2 to hit bonus for attacking a character wearing chainmail and you've got a character with an effective THAC0 of -2.
Additionally invisibility/being hidden confers a +4 bonus to hit for the first attack making that THAC0 -6.
If the special ability Draw upon Holy Might stacks with the Potion of Storm Giant Strength you can add another +1 to hit.
End result: effective THAC0 of -7
Obviously you could use a Kensai 8 -> Thief 10 to get an even better number, but I dislike long periods of having only half of a character available.
10th
That's actually something I like about IWD and IWD2. Not your charisma, but having certain classes along with you helps a lot. Bards especially get a lot of extra options in both games if I remember. Druids also get a significant amount.
Heck in IWD2, one of the quests requires you to either have high Int OR be a dwarf/elf in order to fully translate something. And I think you have to be a dwarf or elf to get the max experience there. It's really cool.
... Damn. That's... Yeah I need to try that.
You could only do Kensai 7 if you wanted to dual-class and regain your fighter levels, though, and you'd also only hit thief 8. Dual-classing still takes into account the 161k XP cap between both classes.
With Half-orcs coming into play, it'd be even easier to kill Drizzt on BGEE. Then again, 5 traps are enough to slay him.
Nalia is one of the best mages available. Discuss.
Ooooh such fun!
Her biggest flaw is being identical to Imoen without being as important to the plot. Also Imoen eventually gets Bhaalspawn powers in Throne of Bhaal which are seriously crazy.
All the NPCs in Baldur's Gate 2 are pretty good, honestly. Even Cernd. The only stat that matters for a druid is maxed on him (18 Wisdom). If you enter combat with him, you'll surely turn into a werewolf first and that fixes his low strength, dexterity and constitution anyway.
Her ring is decent early on and coupled with her 18 dexterity she isn't going to be taken off guard. Her ring does definitely become a bit more of a burden towards ToB, but I'd rather have a free amulet slot than a ring slot, unlike Edwin. I also like her strength, although no bonuses are given she can carry far more than Imoen or Edwin can which means she can utilise more magical weapons etc. Her personal quest is also the best in my opinion, her personality is grinding for some but her change from SoA to ToB is noticeable, which I like especially her 'naturally!' voice clip
p.s. I have the hots for Drew Barrymore. There, I said it!
FYI, Tiax does rule. His biggest fault is he's late in the game. I couldn't believe the summoning ability. Kickass. @sandmanCCL: Think it's a ghast he summons though, not a ghoul.
I've found that all the most popular NPCs in BG1 - evil and good - are accessible early and right out in the open.
I am baffled by how so many people insist that characters need at least 3 maxed out stats (exaggeration) to be useful! It's crazy!
I don't agree with EVERYTHING you've said! Mainly, I think Alora's funny, and I've never played with Tiax. But that's where my estrangement from your ideas end. I think the rest of it makes perfect sense, @sandmanCCL. The stat discussion you've included is my main point of interest as it's the one that I agree with most fervently, although I think Imoen (and, indeed, Nalia to a lesser degree) are significantly undersold for their capabilities as thieves.
Here's some minor clarifications (correct me if I'M wrong on any of them). Everything here applies to vanilla BG+TOSC, with the official fixpack and the Baldurdash fixpack installed. A lot of this stuff is known, and is more about game rules than game strategies like in the OP, so I've put it in spoiler tags:
2. Composite Long Bows don't require 18 strength to use
3. 4 pips in a weapon proficiency provides bonuses of 3 THAC0 and 5 damage, not 3 THAC0 and 4 damage, as listed in the manual.
4. Dual-class weapon proficiencies DON'T stack. For example, if you dual your level 6 fighter, who has **** in Large Swords proficiency, into a Thief, your * in Large Swords as a Thief won't be added onto your **** when you regain your Fighter class. Furthermore, at Thief level 8, you won't be allowed to add any more points to Large Swords to get it to *****.
5. Pure Druids can wear Ankheg Armor, as well as regular leather armors.
6. Constitution HP bonuses are calculated separately from base HP. This means that when you get the Constitution tome, it'll add 1 hp for all previous levels, and not just new levels from that point. That's obviously assuming you're eligable for HP gains from +1 Constitution in the first place.
7. Wisdom doesn't add saving throw bonuses. Paladins don't get class saving throw bonuses.
8. Elves don't get Charm and Sleep resistances as mentioned by the game. They gain +1 THAC0 to all Large Swords (meaning 2-Handed Swords, Bastard Swords, and Scimitars, as well as Long Swords). They gain +1 THAC0 to Composite Long Bows, Long Bows, and Short Bows. They have maxiumum 19 Dexterity and maximum 17 Constitution, as advertised. Half-elves are the same as Elves, in that they also don't get any resistances to Charm and Sleep.
9. Gnomes are listed as having "natural resistance to magic", but don't have magic resistance. They do however have bonuses to Saves vs Spells and Saves vs Wands, the extent of which determined by Constitution. Gnomes have maximum 19 Intelligence and maximum 17 Wisdom.
10. Halflings are listed as "somewhat resistant to poisons and magic". Like the Gnomes, they don't have magic or poison resistance, but have saving throw bonuses. They have the same saving throw bonuses as the Gnomes, plus Saves vs Death. They have the advertised maximum 17 Strength and 19 Dexterity, plus the unadvertised maximum of 17 Wisdom.
11. Dwarves have "a natural resistance to magic and poison", again referring to saving throws. Their saves work the same way as Halflings'. And as advertised, they have maximum 19 Constitution, 17 Dexterity, and only 16 Charisma.
@sandmanCCL I'm not convinced you've effectively argued that WIS is overrated, to be honest. As I pointed out in another thread, 18 WIS gives you +2 bonus spells for levels 1 and 2, and +1 bonus spell for levels 3 and 4, for a total of 6. That's nothing to sneeze at.
Now, I get that the argument is more relative, and no NPC has 18 WIS (the highest is 16), so they miss out on the really nice bonuses of extra level 3 and 4 spells. But they still get +2 level 1 and 2 spells, and that's pretty nice (for Clerics, anyway. Druids, not as much...). Specifically, 2 extra level 1 spells are 2 more Protection from Evil spells you can cast (since evil parties probably aren't going to have a Paladin tagging along), along with other key stuff like Remove Fear and, in the EE, Armor of Faith. Level 2 will give you more opportunities for the all-powerful Draw Upon Holy Might and Hold Person.
In BG2? 10 WIS wouldn't be as big of a drawback compared to 16 WIS because key level 1 and 2 spells are suddenly much less useful (Remove Fear, Hold Person, etc). But in BG1 they're great, and the more slots you have, the better.
Put into perspective, at level 1 Tiax would only have one spell slot!
To me, Tiax's REAL advantage is being able to cast Sanctuary then go about doing thief things. Having enemies ignore you while you search for traps is an immense blessing.
@recklessheart: Yeah, exactly. My whole point with the stats thing is simply that people who are focused purely on stats miss out on what actually makes a character good. Stats are great; no one is going to argue that Minsc's 18/93 strength is not a huge asset and a reason to take him in your party. However, it doesn't make him necessarily "better" than Khalid who can actually end up a significantly better warrior due to fighter proficiencies, better dex/con and will often up with better strength because of the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. A guy with 18 int is better at writing spells and has more he can keep in his spellbook over a guy with 13, but you can still get spells and at the end of the day, people who know their way around D&D can make due with anything.
You don't have to have ever used Tiax to at least see my point that he's actually a pretty good NPC, and I hope you agree with me there. Hell, maybe even use him some playthrough.
@giosanti: Again you're right. My bad. I get that confused a lot simply because Bards have a minimum of 15 charisma no matter what. That one pip for a mage you plan on doing that with matters, though, so I will rectify that. Also, I totally forgot about that when it came to the Ogre gloves because I have never actually tried to use them on a single-class mage or thief. When my mages need strength, I just make them buff their own damn selves and honestly thieves only need enough strength to wield a sword in order for them to be good. Usually give the gauntlets to Montaron, Tiax or Khalid.
You sure pure druids can use the Ankheg armor? I don't have any BG games installed anymore to test this out for myself. Can someone else confirm? I know Jaheira can use it but she's multi-classed with fighter. If so, that's a pretty big deal and is worth mentioning. I take your word for it but would just like some confirmation.
When it comes to the Wisdom thing, remember that the only clerics with crappy Wisdom don't join til the last half of the game, Tiax and Quayle. By the time they join, they are both capable divine casters purely from levels. If you're making your own cleric, obviously you'll want to boost wisdom as high as possible. I guess I should clarify my spiel on stats was when it relates to NPCs. Wisdom is highly overrated on your NPCs. Thinking Quayle and Tiax suck because their wisdom is low is silly. I think you agree there at least, yes?
@MilesBeyond: I totally forgot about that! Time to edit that in there as one more reason Tiax rules all.
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tl;dr more stuff updated.
(Please note this is exclusive to a player character Cleric or Druid, especially the latter since we'll be gaining the SoA/ToB spell list)
If you start BG1 with 18 wisdom, you gain the following bonus spells (level 1 to 5):
2/2/1/1
By the end of BG1 and ToTSC you can gain 3 additional points of Wisdom (for a total of 21):
3/3/2/3/1
By the end of Watchers Keep (assuming you use the machine of lub the mad for +1 to all stats for a total of 22):
3/3/2/4/2
And finally if you choose the "good" route in hell when fighting Sarevok (we're up to 23, that's right 23 Wisdom):
3/3/2/4/4
Now lets sum up some of the good spells from 1-5 that we might find useful even at end game ToB
Level 1:
Armor of Faith (25% damage reduction at level 20, not bad)
Sanctuary
Doom
Maybe Remove Fear
Cure Light Wounds (Unlikely it'll be useful but nice in a pinch)
Bless (Useful early game, not so much later, especially by SoA but worth a mention
Level 2:
Barkskin (Good early, especially early to mid BG1 and early SoA before the mage robes start dropping. Or if you're a shapeshifter.)
Chant (Even better when combined with bless)
Draw Upon Holy Might (Hi I'm an end game Cleric. This pretty much sums up my level 2 spell slots)
Flame Blade (Trolls, note does not work on the internet *sigh)
Hold Person (Great for most of BG1 and SoA)
Resist Fire/Cold (Not bad, honestly I think this is fairly undervalued. Especially funny when you hear your tank make sounds of taking damage and watching Firkragg heal them cause they're over 100 fire resist)
Spiritual Hammer (Useful for em, I dunno between levels 3 and 4 for your cleric.....)
Level 3:
Animate Cheese........errrrrrrrr Animate Dead (It's like a finally aged sharp cheddar)
Cure Medium Wounds (getting better)
Dispel Magic (Useful in BG1, Useful in BG2 if you don't have a pet Keldorn or other Holy Avenger Wielder)
Glyph of Warding (If you get used to the narrow radius you can sorta use it as a nuke)
Holy Smite (So lets have a talk about all those evil mobs again....)
Miscast Magic (Another grossly underestimated spell, especially if you doom them first)
Level 4:
Summon Fodder 1 (its like animate dead but sucks more!)
Cure Serious Wounds (good healer *headpat*)
Death Ward (REALLY useful by the end of SoA)
Defensive Harmony (Really quick cast time but doesn't last long. I really like this spell)
Free Action (One of my personal favorite level 4 slots. I cast web a lot and finding enough stuff with free action, well there really ain't enough).
Holy Power (Tensers for clerics. If you can cast this and still cast afterwards then follow up with Draw Upon Holy Win)
Lesser Restoration/Negative Plane Protection (easiest to memorize the latter and buff up your front line before sending them axe/sword first into vampires)
Protection from Evil '10 Radius (Cause they just casted Gate and you wanna watch the demon kill its caster. Doesn't last as long as level 1 PoE)
Level 5:
Summon Fodder 2 (Again Animate Dead still does it better)
Chaotic Commands (Because not everyone can be as awesome as Korgan or Keldorn)
Cure Critical Wounds (Mutter mutter heal mutter mutter)
FLAMESTRIKE (There is nothing wrong with filling up level 5 with flamestrike in my opinion. It's honestly prolly the reason I wrote this. I love flame strike and a bunch of the level 4 spells so much I constantly cast them)
Iron Skins (Hey Druids needed something)
Mass Cure (Just remember everytime you cast this tell yourself "I could have been flame striking)
Raise Dead (worth mentioning, also worth reminding us of quickload)
Righteous Magic (So remember that one time when you're high level cleric became a better tank than your fighters......)
True Seeing (Cause Keldorn is off napping again)
Now I'll admit, 6th and 7th level spells are amazing. But the level 3 through 5 range are also really good. And you're getting more casts of them. Many of them remain useful at least through the end of SoA if not through the end of ToB itself.
Heck, druids might find it even more important than clerics since they can actually cast level 5 spells with the ToTSC cap.
That said, I really feel that wisdom is only useful for a spell casting PC cleric, or at least one that wants to empty most of their spellbook before activating all their melee buffs and snickering at the warrior classes in late game.
But as you mentioned in the conclusion to your post, this logic is only applicable with a PC priest. @SandmanCCL is arguing in favour of the inclusion of less-favoured NPCs in BG1, to which this logic obviously does not apply.
Ya I understand there. I only posted it here due to everyone saying wisdom was bad. I thought the same thing until I realized just how high you could boost your wisdom compared to the other stats. It's kind of scary. Do you want to imagine a mage with that much int?
The only things that come close is that if you're a half-orc or dwarf you could possibly get 22 Con and if you're a half-orc you could possibly have 22 Strength.