Monk Rebalancing Per Handbook - Solutions
bigdogchris
Member Posts: 1,336
Preface: Some of these suggestions may be more appropriate for a 'PnP' mod, but some may be seen as necessity.
There are some rules in Baldur's Gate that are purposely change or are made into "house rules" for video game balance. Monks in BG2 appear to be designed as a "house class", neither specifically following 2nd or 3rd Edition rules. Due to being a house class, solutions are extracted from both 2nd and 3rd Edition.
For this discussion I will stick to rule changes which I feel do not break the game and rules which were possibly misinterpreted by the original developers. Some changes are nerfs and others are bonuses. I believe if everything is implemented that Monks will remain balanced and will more faithfully follow their PnP counterpart.
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Current - Monks AC acts as normal AC
Solution - Monks level base AC bonuses are negated if the Monk is attacked from behind (ranged/backstab/etc.)
This is per 2nd Edition Handbook, Faiths and Avatars.
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Current - Monks are able to wear bracers, gauntlets, and boots in BG2.
Solution - Remove the ability for Monks to wear bracers, gauntlets, and boots.
"Monks may not use magical items that are constructed to resemble armor or pieces of armor, such as braces of defense, but they are allowed to wear cloaks or rings." - per 2nd Edition Handbook, Faiths and Avatars.
It has been pointed out that the ToB expansion and Rasaad's boots are/has Monk only equipment. These items could be an exception to the restrictions, similar to the armor that allows Mage's to cast spells.
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Current - Monks start the game with +2 movement and gain +1 every 5 levels. I am not aware of a 2nd edition rule that provides Monks movement bonus. These movement rates do not match the 1st Edition movement rates either. As I understand, the bonus is probably extracted from 3rd Edition rules. I believe the bonuses are not correct and should be changed.
Solution - Monks start the game with no bonus. Monks receive a +1 movement at 3rd level and gain +1 movement every 3 levels thereafter (+2@lvl6, +3@lvl9, etc) up to +6@lvl18.
This is per 3rd Edition rules.
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Current - Monks do not have the correct minimal stat requirements. Currently min's are Int - 3, Wis - 9, Con - 9
Solution - Set minimal stats to: Int - 14, Wis - 15, Con - 13
This is per 2nd Edition Handbook, Faiths and Avatars. I understand that the way you choose your class in BG would mean that Monks would automatically get decent stats, but the current minimal's are just too weak to qualify as a Monk.
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Current - Monks are supposed to receive 10% experience bonus for having 16 Int & 16 Wis.
Solution - Give monks a 10% experience bonus if they have 16 Int & 16 Wis.
This is per 2nd Edition Handbook, Faiths and Avatars. Normal classes receive a bonus to XP for having 16 in their primary stat, Monks require 16 in 2 stats. The 10% bonus for primary stat is not included in BG. However, I feel this change also helps better respect Monks Wis AC bonus they receive in 3rd Edition. The reason being is as they level up faster for meeting this requirement, the AC bonuses they get come faster. I know it's a stretch ...
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Current - Monks start the game with base 9 AC and receive a -1 AC every 2 levels.
Solution - Monks start the game with base 10 AC and receive -1 AC every even level. (AC9@lvl2, AC8@lvl4, AC7@lvl6) max base AC2@16).
This is per 2nd Edition Handbook, Faiths and Avatars.
Monk's continue to receive AC bonuses in ToB as 'house rules'. To continue this trend, award base AC 1@18, base AC 0 @ 21, base AC -1 @ 24, etc. according to ToB). @ 40 Monks would end up with 1 less ac point than vanilla ToB.
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Current - Monks unarmed combat needs some love:
It does not have good upward scaling/pacing: lvl 6-14 with only 2 damage improvement.
Possibly too powerful at low levels: Priest warrior with 1d8 @3 then 1d10 by 6
Too weak at higher levels: Maxes out at level 15, low min, no +5
Solution - Set Monks unarmed combat to the following, damage extracted from 3rd Edition Rules in IWD 2:
Current - Monks are able to detect traps, but have no other trap related abilities.
Solution - Give monks a 'Trap Evasion' skill at level 2, derived from their 3rd Edition Evasion (EX) ability. Also move them to 15% point to distribute per level, up from 10. Set Trap Evasion skill at level 2 to a default of 5.
This skill would allow you to assign points to it as you currently do with Hide in Shadows, etc. When a Monk walks over a trap, if the Monk's Trap Evasion skill is equal to or greater than the skill required to disarm, the Monk will not trip the trap. Dialogue will be displayed "CHARNAME has evaded a trap".
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There are some rules in Baldur's Gate that are purposely change or are made into "house rules" for video game balance. Monks in BG2 appear to be designed as a "house class", neither specifically following 2nd or 3rd Edition rules. Due to being a house class, solutions are extracted from both 2nd and 3rd Edition.
For this discussion I will stick to rule changes which I feel do not break the game and rules which were possibly misinterpreted by the original developers. Some changes are nerfs and others are bonuses. I believe if everything is implemented that Monks will remain balanced and will more faithfully follow their PnP counterpart.
--------------
Current - Monks AC acts as normal AC
Solution - Monks level base AC bonuses are negated if the Monk is attacked from behind (ranged/backstab/etc.)
This is per 2nd Edition Handbook, Faiths and Avatars.
--------------
Current - Monks are able to wear bracers, gauntlets, and boots in BG2.
Solution - Remove the ability for Monks to wear bracers, gauntlets, and boots.
"Monks may not use magical items that are constructed to resemble armor or pieces of armor, such as braces of defense, but they are allowed to wear cloaks or rings." - per 2nd Edition Handbook, Faiths and Avatars.
It has been pointed out that the ToB expansion and Rasaad's boots are/has Monk only equipment. These items could be an exception to the restrictions, similar to the armor that allows Mage's to cast spells.
--------------
Current - Monks start the game with +2 movement and gain +1 every 5 levels. I am not aware of a 2nd edition rule that provides Monks movement bonus. These movement rates do not match the 1st Edition movement rates either. As I understand, the bonus is probably extracted from 3rd Edition rules. I believe the bonuses are not correct and should be changed.
Solution - Monks start the game with no bonus. Monks receive a +1 movement at 3rd level and gain +1 movement every 3 levels thereafter (+2@lvl6, +3@lvl9, etc) up to +6@lvl18.
This is per 3rd Edition rules.
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Current - Monks do not have the correct minimal stat requirements. Currently min's are Int - 3, Wis - 9, Con - 9
Solution - Set minimal stats to: Int - 14, Wis - 15, Con - 13
This is per 2nd Edition Handbook, Faiths and Avatars. I understand that the way you choose your class in BG would mean that Monks would automatically get decent stats, but the current minimal's are just too weak to qualify as a Monk.
--------------
Current - Monks are supposed to receive 10% experience bonus for having 16 Int & 16 Wis.
Solution - Give monks a 10% experience bonus if they have 16 Int & 16 Wis.
This is per 2nd Edition Handbook, Faiths and Avatars. Normal classes receive a bonus to XP for having 16 in their primary stat, Monks require 16 in 2 stats. The 10% bonus for primary stat is not included in BG. However, I feel this change also helps better respect Monks Wis AC bonus they receive in 3rd Edition. The reason being is as they level up faster for meeting this requirement, the AC bonuses they get come faster. I know it's a stretch ...
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Current - Monks start the game with base 9 AC and receive a -1 AC every 2 levels.
Solution - Monks start the game with base 10 AC and receive -1 AC every even level. (AC9@lvl2, AC8@lvl4, AC7@lvl6) max base AC2@16).
This is per 2nd Edition Handbook, Faiths and Avatars.
Monk's continue to receive AC bonuses in ToB as 'house rules'. To continue this trend, award base AC 1@18, base AC 0 @ 21, base AC -1 @ 24, etc. according to ToB). @ 40 Monks would end up with 1 less ac point than vanilla ToB.
--------------
Current - Monks unarmed combat needs some love:
It does not have good upward scaling/pacing: lvl 6-14 with only 2 damage improvement.
Possibly too powerful at low levels: Priest warrior with 1d8 @3 then 1d10 by 6
Too weak at higher levels: Maxes out at level 15, low min, no +5
Solution - Set Monks unarmed combat to the following, damage extracted from 3rd Edition Rules in IWD 2:
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Level -- Damage
Level 1-3: 1-6 (1d6)
Level 4-7: 1-8 (1d8)
Level 8-11: 1-10 (1d10)
Level 12-15: 1-12 (2d6)
Level 16-20: 1-20 (2d10)
Level 35: Fist count as +5
Current - Monks are able to detect traps, but have no other trap related abilities.
Solution - Give monks a 'Trap Evasion' skill at level 2, derived from their 3rd Edition Evasion (EX) ability. Also move them to 15% point to distribute per level, up from 10. Set Trap Evasion skill at level 2 to a default of 5.
This skill would allow you to assign points to it as you currently do with Hide in Shadows, etc. When a Monk walks over a trap, if the Monk's Trap Evasion skill is equal to or greater than the skill required to disarm, the Monk will not trip the trap. Dialogue will be displayed "CHARNAME has evaded a trap".
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Post edited by bigdogchris on
9
Comments
Totally agreed!
Also HLA should be revised:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/3089/monk-high-level-abilities
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/42/classeskits-request-fix-the-monk-class
@PhillipDaigle please consider
As for your specific suggestions, I already took the Wis/AC relationship into account and mentioned it in the XP bonus portion, if you missed that. Again, Monks in BG are a "House Class" so not every 3rd Edition rule applies. The WIS bonus would be harder to implement in 2nd Edition because you would just be guessing at what is balanced, where in 3rd Edition you just add the Wis modifier to their AC and be done, but that's been balanced by the pro's.
And for the fist, I see Monk as a class that initially starts out very weak, but eventually with much training becomes very powerful. With BG being a group based game you can have classes like that as you have support. Monks are also a more spiritual class and not based on brute strength, so until they receive more training their combat may be weaker than a fighter. This change would be the equivalent as at level 4 moving from short sword to a long sword, which is appropriate for the scope of BG 1. Also, due to no weapon specialization available for unarmed fighting, this would give them a bonus at higher levels.
The only bracers that aren't restricted from Monks anyway in BG2 (I could find BG1 only if I weren't so very lazy) are:
Bracers of Defense - The AC booster in question.
Bracers of Archery - Hurts early game monks to lose, but eh.
Bracers of Binding - Manacles.
Bracers of Blinding Strike - Monks I had believed to be immune to haste anyway?
Tzu Zan's Bracers - Largely irrelevant sidequest gear. Also they're the Monk-flavoured ones mentioned above.
Meanwhile, hand wear not specifically barred them anyway includes:
Gauntlets of Crushing - Monk specific.
Gauntlets of Dexterity
Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization
Gauntlets of Ogre Power
Gauntlets of Weapons Skill
Gloves of Healing
Gloves of Missile Snaring
An argument could seriously be made for most of these that they're not particularly crafted as "armour" so much as "clothing" (no Gauntlet gives an AC modifier, the "Gauntlets" of Dexterity in particular leave most of the hand completely uncovered, though Extraordinary Specialisation and Weapons Skill are sort of chunky looking from their icons, two of them are explicitly "gloves" and so on), and as it's categorised differently, making the Tzu Zan Bracers a lone exception whilst blocking all Bracer types makes sense.
A for the gauntlets, I think you could say that they should be bared because a Monk fights with his fist. If you cover their fist maybe their Ki energy is eliminated?
I will do some more reading to see if I can find a better definition of "armor" in D&D because you are right, what's the difference between armor and clothing?
Thank you for providing the corrections.
Again, I wouldn't classify as a bug (in fact, that goes for pretty much all of these, so I'll just stop saying that). I like them as they are now, however: it gives you a benefit right away for being a monk instead of having to wait for it gradually to come.
Stylistic differences, I suppose. I agree with your minimums, for what it's worth.
My thoughts have always been that high stats should be their own reward; it's not really necesary to stack an xp boost on top of that. However, it does give an interesting boost for putting points into intelligence... Early game monks are quite weak to begin with, and late game is when they get amazing. If anything, for the sake of balance, I would increase their starting AC benefit, but slow down the progression. Again, I feel that low level monks already have it bad enough without lowering their damage (in addition to their AC and movement). I do think 2d10 is preferable to 1d20, though, which is just all over the place.
Currently the Monk fills the role of a hit-and-run character who is able to slip into and out of melee combat freely, incapacitating or taking down key opponents quickly.
Bug - Monks AC acts as normal AC
-as it is, Monks already have very poor AC. In a game where you could die in 1 hit from most sources up until very late in the game (and even then, if you play in a higher difficulty setting) I don't think it's fair to further cripple the survivability of what is essentially a melee class. Should remain as is.
Bug - Monks are able to wear bracers, gauntlets, and boots in BG2.
-there's nothing armor-like about a pair of boots. Still, I think its reasonable. Monk-specific items can simply be added after to compensate. There should even be some at Candlekeep.
Bug - Monks start the game with +2 movement and gain +1 every 5 levels. Since there is no 2nd edition rule that provides Monks movement bonus, from what I know, the bonus is probably extracted from 3rd Edition rules. I believe the bonuses are not correct.
-the monk's fast movement speed is one of the defining features of the class. Increased speed makes perfect sense for a class that relies heavily on martial arts combat.
In-game, without this the monk is essentially just a cleric with stealth but with no spells/turn undead/access to heavy armor. There is no need for a player to have to spend 2 whole levels as such a character, before getting their first speed bonus. Should remain as is, or modified so first level speed bonus is retained.
Bug - Monks do not have the correct minimal stat requirements. Currently min's are Int - 3, Wis - 9, Con - 9
-Priority. Should be implemented.
Bug - Monks are supposed to receive 10% experience bonus for having 16 Int & 16 Wis.
-I think it's reasonable, but not implemented for all classes.
Bug - Monks start the game with base 9 AC and receive a -1 AC every 2 levels.
-Only difference is that monks get that extra 1 bonus to AC earlier. Considering how badly the class needs survivability at low levels, should remain as is.
Bug - Monks unarmed combat is too powerful at low levels and too weak at higher levels (list available in Kit Description)
-I was under the impression that the reverse was true, and based on the other posts here I believe I am correct. The part that high level monks need better combat support is reasonable though, but I believe this should come in the form of an HLA. High level monk fists already do excellent damage in the latter part of SoA (the last time I played a high level monk in SoA just about everything I killed died in explosion of gore).
One thing though, if better support for monks is added to the game (in the form of a variety of monk-specific items) I'd probably take back most of what I said earlier and agree that most of your suggestions are reasonable. Just not the movement speed one (whenever I think of monks in BG, the first thing that always comes to mind is "fast").
I have changed the wording to better reflect what I'm suggesting. I appreciate your feedback. However, keep in mind that rebalancing does not simply mean "give more power". The changes I suggest are both nerfs and bonuses, which is the intention as I described. I know, it's a video game and effort cannot be put into a class that is worthless. Relative to other classes and all of the magical weapons in the game, that may be true, but it's not a Monk issue it's an overpowering of other classes and weapons issue.
In BG2 Monks move to 1d8 and stay on it longer than my suggestion, as well as move up a little faster. My suggestion is to move them to 3rd Edition first damage, which will help the upper levels a little more at the cost of lower levels not progressing as fast.
Also, as Monks do not receive the proficiencies that other classes get, they can fall behind. This new layout would allow someone to mod the game if they feel Monks should get increased fist damage in ToB, ie, 3d8 @ lvl 24, etc.
@AndreaColombo
Perhaps my suggestions may be more appropriate for a "PnP" mod. Thanks!
I don't think that there will ever be a great way to balance Monks in this game though. No armor and no weapons is tough to balance vs characters who are allowed to wear high end armor and weapons, which there is an abundance of in these games.
Other class can gain the benefit too. Mages (except currently they dont have access to any weapon style) who use touch spells and clerics who use harm spells can benefit from this.
Even adding Monk fist to 'Single-Weapon Style' I think is a stretch as a fist is used as a weapon, but it's not a weapon (a handheld device).
I dislike the XP bonus, if only because it creates a PnP mechanic for one class that no other class receives.
I also think that monks need an early AC bonus to make them viable. Allowing them to benefit from Single Weapon Style when fighting unarmed would be a good way to do that--but it also leaves them with an unnecessary +2 bonus to AC at higher levels, which they might not need.
How does a monk's AC look (with SWS and 18 Dexterity) at level 20? If it's worse than -10, I'd say that's probably fine.
That said, you're probably right.
If this is not created, maybe there is a new glove available to monks that allows them to cast the mage armor spell. This grants 6 AC in the early levels and become irrelevant in the later levels.
At level 8 with +0 to attack, everything looked good. I did though do 17 damage on non-critical attacks. Monks are 1-12 at this level.
At level 9 with +1 to attack (from fist), I was mostly getting +1 to rolls but occasionally +5 to atk.
I then pushed him to level 15 and was getting +3 atk (from fist), but was doing 24 damage (Monks are 1-20). On occasion I was also getting +6 to atk rolls.
Where are these hidden bonuses coming from?
But that might explain why people think monks are so overpowered at the late game; they're getting mysterious bonuses to attack and damage for no reason!
Even though my character profile showed no bonuses to attack, my adjusted THAC0 was lower and I was getting the + in the attack rolls for 1,2, and 3.
Should Monks be moved to +5 in ToB?