@MilesBeyond: Don't forget Tiax is one of your 3 possible thief choices for evil parties. I don't know why people instantly associate him with his cleric side only. If I'm running with Edwin over Xzar/Montaron and would rather leave Shar-Teel as a fighter, it's between Tiax and Skie. And if you aim for Skie, your party is going to be super full because you'll also have Eldoth.
Tiax actually fits into the party building scheme of things pretty good.
I think the reason why people mostly associate Tiax as a Cleric is because the assumption is that if you've gotten through the Cloakwood and its mines, the Bandit Camp (specifically main tent), heck, even the Nashkel mines, as well as other areas you're likely to have done by chapter 5 such as Ulcaster and Firewine, you've probably already got a fairly competent thief. Sure, it's possible to do all that without one, but that's not going to be all too common. Most evil parties will probably have Montaron, a couple who really don't want Xzar might pick up Safana instead. And I wouldn't take Tiax over Monty, not by a long shot, especially if I've got Viconia along.
Tiax would be a great choice for an evil thief if he were available earlier on. Since he's not...
I do kind of agree with the feeling that if a character is presented as an option or alternative in the latter stages of a game, then there needs to be some kind of incentive to use that character, partly to reward players for experiencing new characters, and partly to make the more loyal players feel honorable for keeping their less-spectacular current party. That's me talking from a design perspective, though, which may or may not bear any relevance on this discussion.
It seems a little strange that Baldur's Gate is this big city, and many of the people that live there are kind of...meh...in the stats department.
For me personally, the stats should not be altered. Having every character with almost perfect or perfect stats for their class makes the game boring and have less diversity and flavour.
Late game characters I have always seen as reserve joinable NPC's in case a player has too many permanent deaths and doesn't enjoy reloading all the time. I personally see them as reserve characters for when I am playing a no resurrecting game.
They also make the game world seem far more real. Why wouldn't someone want to journey with you late in the game? From an RP perspective, you don't actually know how much longer your quest to defeat Sarevok or whatever else waits for you is going to take. This is why you need late joining NPC's. It would be very unrealistic and unbelievable if everyone wants to join your party early when you are level 1 to 3, then at level 4+ suddenly no one is interested anymore...
I guess it's rather a matter of different perceptions. I don't believe that the NPCs in BG1 have bad stats. Quite the opposite, they have in general 2-3 higher than average stats (15+) and the rest are average stats (7 to 14). Some NPCs even have up to 4 above average stats. With such stat distributions NPCs and PCs are hardly at a disadvantage. The game harbours so many human NPCs that are able to dual class which is another proof that stats cannot be that bad. All mages you encounter are specialist mages which means that not only their primary stat (int) is high enough but also a secondary stat which is required for the specialization (with the exception of Quayle ofc). Try rolling the stats manually with some dice. You'll notice a significant difference.
AD&D 2nd ed. doesn't really punish or reward deviations from the average. Pushing the power of NPCs a notch up would result in more NPCs like Coran or Kagain with some 20 stat.
... But if you're playing the game just to have the best ever party and so that killing every enemy is as easy as it possibly can be - well.. that's the only reason I can see as to why you would want a general increase in NPC stats. And that's not a very good reason, in my opinion.
You don't need to have above average stats to butcher everything. Party setup and levels have a bigger impact. And let's not forget meta-gaming and the strategies and tactics used.
I'm for minor changes, even if fans or developers are not. Thankfully modders do this for me and provide me with fun ways to completely redefine everything about an NPC. I normally re-write the NPCs every time I play, because after 1 million playthroughs...I still cannot bring myself to use the canon party.
Some of the NPC's stats and abilities are just plain bullshit.
I mean, Quayle is a Cleric with 10 wisdom. It feels like I'm being trolled by the game.
Quayle doesn't have to cope with any penalties. OK he is missing the bonus spells from a higher wisdom, but he can still use all priest spells. Even if Quayle had, say a 16 wisdom, that would only translate to 2 additional 1st level spells and 2 additional 2nd level spells. But Quayle is a multi-class Illusionist/Cleric. He'll have lots of spell slots anyway. He can get to level 7 cleric and level 7 Illusionist.
But then the 10 wisdom rather fits his personality. He thinks he is the smartest person. Literally a genius. But lacks so much in personal communication and social skills. OK, his charisma isn't that big which reflects that additionally.
Ability scores shouldn't be solely used to powergame. Ability scores also reflect part of the persona and certain traits (physical or mental).
Some of them need minor buffs to make them more attractive. For instance, perhaps give Faldorn +1 to her Wisdom so she lays claim to "yes, she kind of sucks but she has the highest Wisdom."
But I would sooner keep it as is than to make it comparable to how it was in BGII. I mean in BGII everyone has beast stats except for Cernd.
So I'm kind of with sandmanCCL's point. The whole "they all need to be distinguishable from each other" thing.
Some of the NPC's stats and abilities are just plain bullshit.
I mean, Quayle is a Cleric with 10 wisdom. It feels like I'm being trolled by the game.
Quayle doesn't have to cope with any penalties. OK he is missing the bonus spells from a higher wisdom, but he can still use all priest spells. Even if Quayle had, say a 16 wisdom, that would only translate to 2 additional 1st level spells and 2 additional 2nd level spells. But Quayle is a multi-class Illusionist/Cleric. He'll have lots of spell slots anyway. He can get to level 7 cleric and level 7 Illusionist.
But then the 10 wisdom rather fits his personality. He thinks he is the smartest person. Literally a genius. But lacks so much in personal communication and social skills. OK, his charisma isn't that big which reflects that additionally.
Ability scores shouldn't be solely used to powergame. Ability scores also reflect part of the persona and certain traits (physical or mental).
And this is another great point that I agree with. People complain about some stats but it reflects personality traits perfectly ... like Quayle's 10 Wisdom and 6 Charisma. =P Or Minsc's rather sad (and illegal) Wisdom score.
Sometimes BioWare did a great job matching scores with personality, other times they failed completely. I wish Beamdog would clean that up, but I know they can't.
For instance; Ajantis with a 17 Charisma. I'll agree to maybe a 14, because he's a heroic, great guy but honestly he is just a kid and that's an obvious part of his personality, and I dunno about you but the naive way he speaks doesn't exactly encourage me to drop everything in my life and follow him. I understand however that he needed that minimum 17 to be a Paladin.
Or how about Garrick, with his 14 Wisdom. You're kidding me, right? He is a very foolish sort, it's obvious from his employment and his biography.
Xan with his 16 Charisma. Yeah, they just gave him that because he's an Enchanter. There is no way that guy is actually 16 Charisma.
... Or how about Garrick, with his 14 Wisdom. You're kidding me, right? He is a very foolish sort, it's obvious from his employment and his biography. ...
Foolish but very likable. But he's probably learned a bit from past mistakes. But still he has to go a long way to get much wiser. Especially if you meet Garrick in BG2 (i.e. the "Cyrano de Bergerac" scene). Garrick is one of my favourite NPCs in BG1.
... Xan with his 16 Charisma. Yeah, they just gave him that because he's an Enchanter. There is no way that guy is actually 16 Charisma. ...
This one does really suffer from a severe depression. Dunno. Maybe that is just a side effect from captivity. Or the high charisma is attributed to physical looks.
Garrick needs better stats purely because he's literally the worst NPC in the game from a bonuses perspective right now. Lower his wisdom and bump up his intelligence, maybe. I just want the option to reliably scribe spells! Garrick is gullible which suggests low wisdom, but he's not a complete idiot so he could still have high int.
Also, Quayle needs 10 strength for the BG2 engine. Maces = 10 strength = he can't even wield his default starting equipment. Other than that, he's fine.
Honestly everyone else is fine. Even Alora, whom I dislike greatly.
Comments
Tiax would be a great choice for an evil thief if he were available earlier on. Since he's not...
Oh... and 50 000 gp in the inventory.
TIA Beamdog !!
It seems a little strange that Baldur's Gate is this big city, and many of the people that live there are kind of...meh...in the stats department.
Late game characters I have always seen as reserve joinable NPC's in case a player has too many permanent deaths and doesn't enjoy reloading all the time. I personally see them as reserve characters for when I am playing a no resurrecting game.
They also make the game world seem far more real. Why wouldn't someone want to journey with you late in the game? From an RP perspective, you don't actually know how much longer your quest to defeat Sarevok or whatever else waits for you is going to take. This is why you need late joining NPC's. It would be very unrealistic and unbelievable if everyone wants to join your party early when you are level 1 to 3, then at level 4+ suddenly no one is interested anymore...
AD&D 2nd ed. doesn't really punish or reward deviations from the average. Pushing the power of NPCs a notch up would result in more NPCs like Coran or Kagain with some 20 stat.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/3587
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/64049/#Comment_64049
I'm for minor changes, even if fans or developers are not. Thankfully modders do this for me and provide me with fun ways to completely redefine everything about an NPC. I normally re-write the NPCs every time I play, because after 1 million playthroughs...I still cannot bring myself to use the canon party.
But then the 10 wisdom rather fits his personality. He thinks he is the smartest person. Literally a genius. But lacks so much in personal communication and social skills. OK, his charisma isn't that big which reflects that additionally.
Ability scores shouldn't be solely used to powergame. Ability scores also reflect part of the persona and certain traits (physical or mental).
But I would sooner keep it as is than to make it comparable to how it was in BGII. I mean in BGII everyone has beast stats except for Cernd.
So I'm kind of with sandmanCCL's point. The whole "they all need to be distinguishable from each other" thing. And this is another great point that I agree with. People complain about some stats but it reflects personality traits perfectly ... like Quayle's 10 Wisdom and 6 Charisma. =P Or Minsc's rather sad (and illegal) Wisdom score.
Sometimes BioWare did a great job matching scores with personality, other times they failed completely. I wish Beamdog would clean that up, but I know they can't.
For instance; Ajantis with a 17 Charisma. I'll agree to maybe a 14, because he's a heroic, great guy but honestly he is just a kid and that's an obvious part of his personality, and I dunno about you but the naive way he speaks doesn't exactly encourage me to drop everything in my life and follow him. I understand however that he needed that minimum 17 to be a Paladin.
Or how about Garrick, with his 14 Wisdom. You're kidding me, right? He is a very foolish sort, it's obvious from his employment and his biography.
Xan with his 16 Charisma. Yeah, they just gave him that because he's an Enchanter. There is no way that guy is actually 16 Charisma.
Also, Quayle needs 10 strength for the BG2 engine. Maces = 10 strength = he can't even wield his default starting equipment. Other than that, he's fine.
Honestly everyone else is fine. Even Alora, whom I dislike greatly.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/65754/#Comment_65754
Makes me wonder if they'll add a club that helps casters out specifically or if I'll have to eventually spec him into quarterstaves...