Enhance stats of NPCs in BG1

Pecca

So in BG2, NPCs from BG1 get some of their stats adjusted to make them more useful. So my question is, since a lot of NPCs in BG1 have their key stats really low, would you like to see some general adjustment (boost) of their stats? (I mean nothing extreme, just in the manner of BG2 enhancement.)

Pecca

damned I did something wrong, it should have been only two options

Anyone knows how to delete one?

sandmanCCL

I'm all for it considering I often do so for my own playthroughs.

Most everyone you can work around their weaknesses anyway, but it'd be nice if Quayle at least had enough strength to wield the mace he have proficiency points in and Garrick wasn't totally useless.

I'd like to see Eldoth's strength and dexterity scores reversed as well. Eldoth's unique ability is to create arrows and yet he doesn't have the dexterity to be a decent archer? Doesn't make sense.

Permidion_Stark

I like the fact that the characters all have their flaws. It keeps things interesting.

Doom972

Characters need to have flaws, even if it makes some of them crippled. I don't think it breaks the game, so I say leave it as it is.

Metal_Hurlant

Every NPC can be powergamed with min-maxing their stats with items currently in the game. Enhancing their stats now would make them OP imo.

recklessheart

Those NPCs weren't written with that statline because the game developers thought it made them really powerful. It's a point of characterisation. It's the same reason why I've never made a character with a stat line of 18, 18, 18, 10, 3, 18: There's no sincerity or RPability in it.
Those characters should be the way they are. The only thing I would argue is that the BG2 NPCs could justifiably have their BG1 stats moved to correlate with their BG2 stats.
But if you're playing the game just to have the best ever party and so that killing every enemy is as easy as it possibly can be - well.. that's the only reason I can see as to why you would want a general increase in NPC stats. And that's not a very good reason, in my opinion.

shawne

Since stats don't change without items or tomes, I'd rather the Returning Eight (Dorn, Minsc, Neera, Jaheira, Viconia, Imoen, Rasaad and Edwin) had their BG2 numbers rather than a sudden jump in capabilities between games...

Kholdstare

shawne said:

Since stats don't change without items or tomes, I'd rather the Returning Eight (Dorn, Minsc, Neera, Jaheira, Viconia, Imoen, Rasaad and Edwin) had their BG2 numbers rather than a sudden jump in capabilities between games...

Exactly this. It doesn't make much sense to me that the NPCs would improve that much in-between games.

Keles

prefer that the stats remain just as they were in the original. there is no need for any "enhancements" in that regard as the stats just provide another challenge to the overall game itself. plus, kinda fun having characters with some flaws in their stats and helps enforce the idea that not everyone can be uberman. ~

Eyebrows

The only thing I would like to change with NPC stats, is more consistency between BG1 and BG2
It doesnt really matter which set they use, but It would be much better if people didnt get a stat boost/drop just because I "walked" down to Amn

Keles

Eyebrows said:

The only thing I would like to change with NPC stats, is more consistency between BG1 and BG2
It doesnt really matter which set they use, but It would be much better if people didnt get a stat boost/drop just because I "walked" down to Amn

hey now, that walk was hard work! they deserved that boost....extreme work outs...pshaw! just walk to Amn...now that's a work out! ~

Dragonserpent

If I think that a particular NPC should have an improved stat due to personal preference or for continuity reasons, then I'll just use a program like shadow keep to edit them myself. I don't think the developers should bother fixing these sorts of things when we can simply do it ourselves with little hassle if we desire.

Sargiel

That stats should stay as they are. If people really want boosted NPC's they can mod it or create their own custom party.

Pecca

Dragonserpent said:

If I think that a particular NPC should have an improved stat due to personal preference or for continuity reasons, then I'll just use a program like shadow keep to edit them myself. I don't think the developers should bother fixing these sorts of things when we can simply do it ourselves with little hassle if we desire.

Well my point never was to hassle developers with it. I just wanted to see what people generally think about NPCs stats. For me personally , weak characters are more frustration than fun, so I mod them. I just wanted to see how people see it. I'm quite surprised actually:)

Delinom

Some of the NPC's stats and abilities are just plain bullshit.

I mean, Quayle is a Cleric with 10 wisdom. It feels like I'm being trolled by the game.

Dragonspear

I'm not in favor of every NPC having a stat increase. But I am in favor of the stats that Jaheria, Minsc errrrrr Boo, Edwin and Viconia all have in BG2.

sandmanCCL

@Delinom: Wisdom is vastly overrated. You hardly lose out on any spells. I'd argue strength, dexterity and constitution still matter more to a Cleric than Wisdom does.

Dee

To be honest, some of the stats seem more like the characters were generated without fully understanding the character's role. And this has less to do with ability scores and more to do with starting equipment.

Khalid starts with a strength score that's too low to give him a melee bonus. He does, however, have a high Dexterity. And yet he starts out with a sword and shield.

Xan has a moonblade, which would be great if he were a warrior who could use it effectively. Instead he's a 7 Constitution mage with a Strength of 12.

The number of mages with proficiency in Daggers instead of Slings is downright appalling. Not that all mages should favor ranged weapons, but there should be enough of them around to be noteworthy. (In 3e, all wizards are proficient with crossbows, which makes sense, because as a wizard, you're going to want to stay as far away from the action as humanly possible.)

Quayle's Wisdom, Garrick's Intelligence... There are a lot of characters that seem to have been assigned ability scores based on their personality (a good thing!), and classes based on what the game required for party balance (also a good thing!); but the two don't always match (a very, very bad thing).

Quayle would make more sense as a Thief/Illusionist. Garrick actually makes a bit of sense as a Bard, although personally I would drop his Wisdom to 9 and raise his Intelligence to 16 or 17. Alora is a fine thief, but her skill points don't match the needs of the end-game, where you're more concerned about finding traps than about picking pockets.

Dragonspear

@Aosaw Some of the NPCs, like Khalid were actually characters that some of the original creators had used in previous PnP games. Or at least that's the explanation I heard about why some of their stats are so terrible.

Xan you can get around by buffing him with strength and using things like armor, blur and mirror image.

As far as Quayle and Garrick. I have nothing there.

Tanthalas

I think people focus too much on character stats.

shawne

Tanthalas said:

I think people focus too much on character stats.

If this were the sort of RPG where stats could be extensively manipulated, I'd agree. But there aren't many items that can manipulate those figures, which are directly tied to how they perform in battle conditions.

MilesBeyond

Two issues, in my book:

1) BG1 NPC stats should match BG2. Or at the very least, they should throw in some sort of sidequest or something that boosts the NPCs stats. I don't know. Something to make the jump seem less weird. "Hey, Jaheira! Your armour class has improved a lot! What happened?" "Well, I guess being in that cage really limbered me up!"

2) NPCs that aren't available in the early chapters need a power boost. People say 10 WIS fits with Quayle, and you know what, if he were available in chapter 1, I'd be fine with it. But the fact that you have to wait until chapter 5 to grab him, or Tiax, or Alora, or Skie... Like, to get these NPCs, odds are very high that you'll have to kick out a proven, decked out party member for a pretty crappy replacement. In other words, no one's going to use these NPCs unless they're doing a playthrough that specifically revolves around them.

There are two solutions, the way I see it:

1) Give stat improvement. Quayle needs WIS, Alora needs CON, Tiax needs, well, Tiax needs a bit of everything. Skie is actually fine stat-wise, but we need the option to distribute her thief points. If she started at level one and gained the same amount of XP as what the PC has upon joining, she'd probably be the second-best thief in the game (after Imoen). As it is now, she's kinda useless.

2) Make all late-game NPCs available in Chapters 1-2. BG NPC Project does this and its great. You'd have to alter their stories a bit (i.e. Yeslick appearing in the Friendly Arm Inn looking for help because he narrowly escaped his mine being overtaken by bandits), but not by much. Heck, NPCs like Tiax and Quayle wouldn't need any change at all. Just have them appear somewhere else. Other NPCs like Alora and Coran have negligible quests that could even be triggered by walking into the area where they're currently found ("Hey, I've heard of a big Wyvern cave here in the Cloakwood, we should go take them down"). I guess Eldoth and Skie might be the trickiest one.


But, this is all hypothetical, since both of those options are far beyond the scope of what Beamdog is allowed to change.

Dragonspear

@Tanthalas

I understand you're point and agree with you for the most part. As I said the only thing I'd like seeing changed would be the stats that Edwin, Viconia, Minsc and Jaheria all have in BG2 compared to BG1. With the rest of em well, I can find ways to make em work. It's just those 4 who's stats are different (I don't believe Imoen's changed any)

shawne

@MilesBeyond: I think the logic with Quayle, Tiax and the others is that by the time you reach Baldur's Gate, you probably already have a full party - but if your cleric gets gibbed and you really need one, there's a backup. If Quayle were on par with Viconia or Branwen (who are both available much earlier in the game), players might rush to get to chapter 5 and miss a lot of content in the process.

MilesBeyond

shawne said:

@MilesBeyond: I think the logic with Quayle, Tiax and the others is that by the time you reach Baldur's Gate, you probably already have a full party - but if your cleric gets gibbed and you really need one, there's a backup. If Quayle were on par with Viconia or Branwen (who are both available much earlier in the game), players might rush to get to chapter 5 and miss a lot of content in the process.

Well, because of the more open-ended nature of BG1, they wouldn't miss it so much as they'd be putting it off for later. But I see your point (plus what's the fun in doing the Gnoll Fortress at level 5?)

They kinda make sense as a replacement for gibbed characters, but to me, making them available at level 1, from early game would allow them to fill that role and more. I guess you'd also have to delay their special abilities a bit (somehow Tiax's Ghast summoning seems a little extreme for a level 1 party).

Again, I don't mind NPCs with crappy stats. I think @Tanthalas is right, and that stats can become too big a deal. I do take objection, however, to the fact that most NPCs with crappy stats are also late-game and kind of out of the way, meaning that they're hardly ever going to make it into a party.

Think about it: What delayed NPCs are picked up on a regular basis? Coran, and maybe Yeslick - and they're both Ch 4, too! And even then, a lot of players are going to think, "Well, I've already got Kivan, and Branwen/Jaheira/Viconia, do I really need these guys?"

(I'd take Yeslick over Jaheira, BTW, but if I take Jaheira, it usually means I'm doing a canon party play-through)

shawne

MilesBeyond said:

Well, because of the more open-ended nature of BG1, they wouldn't miss it so much as they'd be putting it off for later. But I see your point (plus what's the fun in doing the Gnoll Fortress at level 5?)

Indeed. You'd just walk right over them.

MilesBeyond said:

They kinda make sense as a replacement for gibbed characters, but to me, making them available at level 1, from early game would allow them to fill that role and more. I guess you'd also have to delay their special abilities a bit (somehow Tiax's Ghast summoning seems a little extreme for a level 1 party).

More importantly, IMO, you'd have to find a way to distinguish them from the early-game NPCs, otherwise you'd be throwing too many characters at the player in the first act.

MilesBeyond said:

Think about it: What delayed NPCs are picked up on a regular basis? Coran, and maybe Yeslick - and they're both Ch 4, too! And even then, a lot of players are going to think, "Well, I've already got Kivan, and Branwen/Jaheira/Viconia, do I really need these guys?"

(I'd take Yeslick over Jaheira, BTW, but if I take Jaheira, it usually means I'm doing a canon party play-through)

I suppose it depends on how much the player wants to actively manipulate the makeup of his party - after spending four chapters with the same group, I can see how swapping Kivan for Coran might seem interesting, regardless of their functional differences...

sandmanCCL

@Shawne: I agree there, but at least Tiax and Quayle are worthwhile NPCs in their own right. Quayle is inherently good just from his class, plus has a fun free invisibility once per day, and Tiax has both good stats AND an extremely powerful personal ability in Summon Ghast.

Alora and Skie are my two worst NPCs in BG1 purely from the fact that they don't distinguish themselves besides having poor all-around stats. Alora's unique power is her lucky charm but as the game currently is, it doesn't actually do anything. She's just a weak, squishy plain thief with slightly better saving throws than the others. Skie just sucks because Imoen is better in every possible way except carry capacity, and even then only by 20lbs. She also has points auto-allotted into pick pocket which makes no practical sense because you'll be forced into bringing Eldoth too, who can do it better.

MilesBeyond

shawne said:

More importantly, IMO, you'd have to find a way to distinguish them from the early-game NPCs, otherwise you'd be throwing too many characters at the player in the first act.

I suppose it depends on how much the player wants to actively manipulate the makeup of his party - after spending four chapters with the same group, I can see how swapping Kivan for Coran might seem interesting, regardless of their functional differences...

Most of them are already distinct - Tiax and Quayle are the only NPCs to have their respective MCs in the game, Faldorn's the only pure Druid, Eldoth's an evil Bard (okay, maybe a bit of a stretch...), Yeslick is the only good-aligned divine caster... The only ones that would be tough to distinguish are Skie and Alora - especially since Skie would effectively replace Safana. If they brought in kits, that wouldn't be a problem - but now we're getting really far afield lol.

And the active manipulation is kind of my point. The late-game NPCs are really only viable to people actively plotting out their party ahead of time. I can see how someone might want to replace Kivan with Coran, but I can't imagine someone wanting to replace Imoen with Alora or Viconia with Tiax.

The thing is, even if Alora or Tiax (et al) were BETTER than their respective counterparts, it still wouldn't convince a lot of players, I don't think. When you've invested five chapters into a character, you generally want to stick with them - especially considering how short chapters 6 and 7 are. Add to that fact that they're not always easy to get - Tiax requires you clicking some random Gnome in Baldur's Gate, which not everyone will do, Alora requires you to be wandering around the Hall of Wonders at night, which very few people do, and Skie requires you pick up Eldoth, which almost no one will do. Now consider the fact that the late game NPCs also tend to be chronically annoying (to many, anyway. I personally love Tiax and find Alora pretty funny... her saying "With a smile!" as she goes to backstab someone always makes me laugh) and the deck is really stacked against them.

shawne

@sandmanCCL: All good points, but it's all comparative - neither Skie nor Alora nor Safana can outperform Imoen, but if Imoen doesn't fit your RP or if she's killed, the others can still be integrated into your party, and you'll be forced to use Gauntlets of Dexterity and Potions of Master Thievery to offset their weaknesses.

As for pairings, just do what I'd do and overload Eldoth to immobilize him, then drop him from the party. If he can't reach you to talk to you, he can't take Skie with him.

sandmanCCL

@Shawne: Why would I dump Eldoth out of my party over Skie? At least Eldoth can cast spells (if he ever manages to copy a spell into his damn book), and his poison arrows are pretty slick. Having a walking license to print money is pretty cool.

The whole point is we're talking a way to distinguish each NPC from each other. Skie does this in no ways at all. She is worse than another NPC of the same class in every single way except one really minor one. (Tied for dexterity, Imoen has more HP per level and also has better Charisma, and has the obvious advantage of being able to dual-class.) At least Safana has Charm Animal (and can potentially dual-class if you throw a tome her way) and Alora has halfling saving throws + better ranged thac0 from the 19 dex.

Skie needs some sort of unique ability. Considering she's a noble's daughter, it should be pretty easy to come up with some sort of jewelry or belt only she can use that confers some sort of bonus and make it not scream "nerf me" while still making sense from an RP perspective.

@MilesBeyond: Don't forget Tiax is one of your 3 possible thief choices for evil parties. I don't know why people instantly associate him with his cleric side only. If I'm running with Edwin over Xzar/Montaron and would rather leave Shar-Teel as a fighter, it's between Tiax and Skie. And if you aim for Skie, your party is going to be super full because you'll also have Eldoth.

Tiax actually fits into the party building scheme of things pretty good.