[MOD] REPROCK (REdone PROficiency, Class and Kits) WIP

wolpak

This is an overhaul of my old overhaul of proficiencies, but this is a real one, and not just a rework. The plan, assuming I see it to conclusion, is pretty simple, remove weapon proficiencies and make them something much more customizable. The way proficiencies are implemented have a lot to be desired. It requires meta knowledge of what weapons you get and when and what the end game best weapons are. There are plenty of mods who try to change and alter this (as I had done) but they are just really rearranging decks chairs on the Titanic. Why adjust a system that benefits outside the game knowledge when you can remove it and make a more robust system.

Proficiency points are the best way to have the end user customize their character. We all love choices (why feats became popular in 3e and perks in other games). It is counter intuitive anyway that my grand master fighter can slice you like a ginsu knife with a longsword, but doesn't know which way is up on a short sword or katana. While the original BG system definitely made better sense, I have pared it down even more.

The plan is to rework proficiencies and incorporate statistics for a nice synergy.

Statistics:
They no longer give passive bonuses. You can now view them as potential rather than actual ability. We all know that dreaded word potential from middle school. Your kid may have a 150 IQ, but he gets Cs. Same thing here. You may have an 18 INT, but if you only have 1 point in Acumen, then you only reap the rewards of the "effort" you put forth. While this may seem to devalue statistics, it does not since they control all the proficiencies. Each stat governs 2 proficiencies by itself. It also governs 2 proficiencies with the statistic "next" to it. By next, I view statistics as a circle...

.....................Strength...............Dexterity

Constitution..................................................Intelligence

.....................Wisdom.................Charisma

So, each stat governs 2 proficiencies solo, and 2 with a stat on it's left and a stat on it's right.

Proficiencies:
First thing is that you can now put 7 PIPs into a proficiency instead of 5. The rankings are:

1 Novice
2 Proficient
3 Competent
4 Adept
5 Specialized
6 Master
7 Grand Master

As a side note, the UI doesn't visibly show rank 6 and 7 on the selection screen but DOES show it on the character record. Oh well, nothing I can do about that. Here are the requirements needed for proficiencies:

Prof with 1 controlling stat:

1 Pip: 12 min stat / level 1
2 Pip: 14 min stat / level 3
3 Pip: 16 min stat / level 6
4 Pip: 18 min stat / level 9
5 Pip: 20 min stat / level 12
6 Pip: 22 min stat / level 15
7 Pip: 24 min stat / level 18

Example: When you put a 5th proficiency point into "Power" which is controlled by just strength, you will not receive any benefit until you have at least 20 strength and are level 12.

Prof with 2 controlling stats:

1 Pip: 12 min stat1 / 12 min stat2 / level 1
2 Pip: 13 min stat1 / 13 min stat2 / level 3
3 Pip: 14 min stat1 / 14 min stat2 / level 6
4 Pip: 15 min stat1 / 15 min stat2 / level 9
5 Pip: 16 min stat1 / 16 min stat2 / level 12
6 Pip: 17 min stat1 / 17 min stat2 / level 15
7 Pip: 18 min stat1 / 18 min stat2 / level 18

Example: When you put a 4th proficiency point into "Slashing Weaponry" which is controlled by strength and dexterity, you will not receive any benefit until you have at least 15 strength, 15 dexterity and are level 9.

Proficienices have been regrouped as follows:

Strength:
Power:

1: +1 damage, +1 damage (while off-hand is empty)
2: +2 damage, +1 damage, 1% chance to stun for 2 rounds on melee attack (while off-hand is empty)
3: +3 damage, +2 damage, 1% chance to stun for 2 rounds on melee attack (while off-hand is empty)
4: +4 damage, +2 damage, 2% chance to stun for 2 rounds on melee attack (while off-hand is empty)
5: +5 damage, +3 damage, 2% chance to stun for 2 rounds on melee attack (while off-hand is empty)
6: +6 damage, +3 damage, 3% chance to stun for 2 rounds on melee attack (while off-hand is empty)
7: +7 damage, +4 damage, 3% chance to stun for 2 rounds on melee attack (while off-hand is empty)

Blunt Weaponry (Maces, Hammers, Flails...:

1: +.5 APR
2: +1 APR
3: +1.5 APR
4: +2 APR
5: +2.5 APR
6: +3 APR
7: +3.5 APR

Dexterity:
Piercing Weaponry (daggers, shortswords, Ninjatos and spears):

1: +.5 APR
2: +1 APR
3: +1.5 APR
4: +2 APR
5: +2.5 APR
6: +3 APR
7: +3.5 APR

Avoidance:

1: -1 AC, -1 AC if unarmored
2: -2 AC, -1 AC if unarmored
3: -3 AC, -2 AC if unarmored
4: -4 AC, -2 AC if unarmored
5: -5 AC, -3 AC if unarmored
6: -6 AC, -3 AC if unarmored
7: -7 AC, -4 AC if unarmored and Non-Detection

Constitution:
Fortitude:

1: +4 HP
2: +8 HP
3: +12 HP
4: +16 +1HP regen every 60 seconds
5: +20HP 1/50 regen
6: +24HP 1/40 regen
7: +28HP 1/30 regen

Immunization:

1: +1 Save Death, +1 Save Polymorph
2: Immune to Blindness
3: +2 Save Death, +2 Save Polymorph
4: Immune to Poison
5: +3 Save Death, +3 Save Polymorph
6: Immune to Disease
7: Immune to Level Drain

Intelligence:
Acumen:

1: +1 1st, 2nd level Arcane Spells
2: +1 1st, 2nd, 3rd level Arcane Spells
3: +1 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th level Arcane Spells
4: +1 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th level Arcane Spells
5: +1 2nd, 3rd, 7th, 8th level Arcane Spells
6: +1 4th, 5th, 7th, 9th level Arcane Spells
7: +1 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th level Arcane Spells

Precision:

1: +1 THAC0
2: +1 THAC0, +5% Critical Strike
3: +1 THAC0, +10% Critical Strike
4: +2 THAC0, +10% Critical Strike
5: +2 THAC0, +15% Critical Strike
6: +2 THAC0, +20% Critical Strike
7: +3 THAC0, +25% Critical Strike

Wisdom:
Devotion:

1: +1 1st, 2nd
2: +1 1st, 2nd, 3rd
3: +1 1st, 2nd, 4th
4: +1 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th
5: +1 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th
6: +1 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th
7: +1 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th

Willpower:

1: +1 Spell Saves
2: Immune to Sleep
3: +2 Spell Saves
4: Immune to Hold
5: +3 Spell Saves
6: Immune to Stun
7: Immune to Imprisonment/Maze

Charisma:
Obstinacy:

1: +1 Breath and Wand Saves
2: Immune to Fear
3: +2 Breath and Wand Saves
4: Immune to Charm
5: +3 Breath and Wand Saves
6: Immune to Confusion
7: Immune to Feeblemind/Rigid Thinking

Magnetism:

1:-1 SAVE SPELLS (6')
2:-1 SAVE SPELLS (12')
3:-1 SAVE SPELLS (18')
4:-2 SAVE SPELLS (18')
5:-2 SAVE SPELLS (24')
6:-2 SAVE SPELLS (30')
7:-3 SAVE SPELLS (30')

Strength + Dexterity:
Slashing Weaponry (longswords, axes, katanas, twohanded swords...):

1: +.5 APR
2: +1 APR
3: +1.5 APR
4: +2 APR
5: +2.5 APR
6: +3 APR
7: +3.5 APR

Coordination: (ability with your offhand. AC bonus is gained with weapon or shield (parry bonus or block bonus)

1: +1 THAC0, +1 Off Hand TH
2: +2 THAC0, +1 Off Hand TH, -1 AC (while off-hand has weapon or shield)
3: +3 THAC0, +2 Off Hand TH, -1 AC (while off-hand has weapon or shield)
4: +4 THAC0, +2 Off Hand TH, -2 AC (while off-hand has weapon or shield)
5: +5 THAC0, +3 Off Hand TH, -2 AC (while off-hand has weapon or shield)
6: +6 THAC0, +3 Off Hand TH, -3 AC (while off-hand has weapon or shield)
7: +7 THAC0, +4 Off Hand TH, -3 AC (while off-hand has weapon or shield)

Strength + Constitution:
Enrage:

1:50% +1TH&DAM
2:50% +1TH&DAM&AC&MOVE
3:50% +2TH&DAM +1AC&MOVE
4:50% +2TH&DAM&AC&MOVE
5:25% +2TH&DAM&AC&MOVE 50% DR&MR
6:25% +3TH&DAM&AC&MOVE 50% DR&MR
7:25% +4TH&DAM&AC&MOVE 50% DR&MR

Mobility:

1: +1 Movement, +1 AC Missiles
2: +2 Movement
3: Immune to Slow, +2 AC Missiles
4: +3 Movement
5: Immune to Backstab +3 AC Missiles
6: +4 Movement
7: Free-Action, +4 AC Missiles

Dexterity + Intelligence:
Disabiling:

1: 1% chance per attack -2 Move for 3 rounds
2: +1x Backstab Multiplier, 1% chance per attack -2 AC for 3 rounds
3: +2x Backstab Multiplier, 1% chance per attack -2 TH for 3 rounds
4: +3x Backstab Multiplier, 1% chance per attack -2 DAM for 3 rounds
5: +4x Backstab Multiplier, 1% chance per attack poison for 3 rounds
6: +5x Backstab Multiplier, 1% chance per attack blind for 3 rounds
7: +6x Backstab Multiplier, 1% chance per attack silence for 3 rounds

Marksmanship:

1: +1 TH, +1 Dam Ranged
2: +1 TH, +2 Dam Ranged
3: +2 TH, +3 Dam Ranged
4: +2 TH, +4 Dam Ranged
5: +3 TH, +5 Dam Ranged
6: +3 TH, +6 Dam Ranged
7: +4 TH, +7 Dam Ranged

Intelligence + Charisma
Aptitude:

1: +1 Cast Level, +3% Magic Dam Resist
2: +15% Spell Duration, +6% Magic Dam Resist
3: +1 Cast Speed, +9% Magic Dam Resist
4: +2 Cast Level, +12% Magic Dam Resist
5: +30% Spell Duration, +15% Magic Dam Resist
6: +2 Cast Speed, +18% Magic Dam Resist
7: +3 Cast Level, +21% Magic Dam Resist

Tolerance:

1: 7% Fire and Electrical Resistance
2: 14% Fire and Electrical Resistance
3: 21% Fire and Electrical Resistance
4: 28% Fire and Electrical Resistance
5: 35% Fire and Electrical Resistance
6: 42% Fire and Electrical Resistance
7: 49% Fire and Electrical Resistance

Wisdom + Charisma:
Tenacity:

1: +3% MR
2: +6% MR
3: +9% MR
4: +12% MR
5: +15% MR
6: +18% MR
7: +21% MR

Insight:

1: +5% XP, +5 Lore
2: +10% XP, +10 Lore
3: +15% XP, +15 Lore
4: +20% XP, +20 Lore
5: +25% XP, +25 Lore
6: +30% XP, +30 Lore
7: +35% XP, +35 Lore

Wisdon + Constitution:
Resistance:

1: 3% DR
2: 6% DR
3: 9% DR
4: 12% DR
5: 15% DR
6: 18% DR
7: Protection From Normal Weapons

Prevention:

1: 7% Cold and Acid Resistance
2: 14% Cold and Acid Resistance
3: 21% Cold and Acid Resistance
4: 28% Cold and Acid Resistance
5: 35% Cold and Acid Resistance
6: 42% Cold and Acid Resistance
7: 49% Cold and Acid Resistance

See 2 posts down for Item, Spells, Class and Kit Changes

[Deleted User]

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wolpak

Items, Weapons, Armor and Spells:

Armor has been reconceptualized. While I am doing something that many others have (adding damage resistance), I have changed "Armor Class" to be "Avoidance Class". AC helps you avoid attacks, not resist damage from it. While none of this is a great model of how armor and defense work, it is as good of a representation as can be done. Heavier armors RAISE AC while lighter armors raise AC a little. They all provide some sort of damage resistance. To compensate, as characters level up, they receive bonuses to AC as they do to THAC0 right now. Bonuses to armor simply lower your AC as it currently does now (IE- Magical Plate Mail +1 doesn't resist more damage than normal Plate Mail, but it allows you to slightly move better and avoid attacks more. Shields are now a huge part of avoidance (part of blocking) and they will get bonuses accordingly.

There will be some changes for many items in the game. Items that granted any +Stat now give a bonus to something else instead (likely what the stat was giving a bonus to, IE.- THAC0 or AC) except for tomes which will still give benefits. Bracers will no longer give base AC but rather a +AC based on what they were giving prior. All magical items are stackable as well.

Weapons have been reorganized into blunt, piercing and slashing as well as sub-organized into light, medium and heavy. Blunt, Piercing and Slashing will use proficiencies for bonuses while weight will affect dual wielding. Light weapons give a 0/-1, medium weapons 0/-2, and heavy weapons -1/-3. Obviously other adjustments are made to benefit heavier weapons as they hit harder.

Spells will no longer give bonuses to stats. They will be altered to give a similar benefit to what the stat used to control. Since stats are no longer able to be adjusted by spells and items (except tomes), you will be able to increase your stats every 4 levels.

Classes:
Each class will have some adjustments as well. Something extra to add in value and interactivity.

Fighters:
Offensive Stance: +TH and Dam, -AC and DR
Defensive Stance: -TH and Dam, +AC and DR

Paladins:
Will now be able to Smite. They will be able to sacrifice a spell memorized to add TH and DAM to their next (or time based attacks). A first level spell may add +1 while a 5th level spell may add +5.

Rangers:
Will have a pet. The pet will grow with the Ranger (when resummoned). It can be summoned once a day and when it "dies" it disappears to heal itself. I am debating on whether to allow Rangers to sacrifice spells as Paladins do to heal or "boost" their pet"

Clerics/Druids:
Will be implementing Pecca's spontaneous casting (I have gotten his approval).

Mages:
Subtledoctor has given permission for cantrips, which they will use.

Thieves and Bards:
I may leave thieves and bards as is with their traps and songs.

Barbarians:
Will rework their rage to be multifaceted. Still thinking about that.

Kits will inherit the abilities of the main classes, but often altered, IE- Berserkers do not get Defensive Stance and Defenders (no longer Dwarven Defenders) no longer get Offensive Stance.

wolpak

Oh, and hopefully someone can provide some insight on what they think.

I have decided to base this on proficiency points and levels. The points are easy to script, levels, not so much. Mostly because you can have multiclass and dual class character. If I base this off of main class only, then Multiclass suffers and Dual class really gets screwed (not that I personally care since I despise multi and dual classing).

If I base it off of cumulative levels, then MC gets a huge boost compared to single class as it's much easier to get to 5/5/5 than level 15 or whatever.

I wonder if I could base it solely off of experience points. But then that means some classes will get it later than others. Food for thought...

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Grammarsalad

Regarding levels: what if the script only cares about levels of class x(?) I'm not sure what you have in mind, but it seems that fighters should get the most bang for their proficiency buck, while Wizard levels should count not at all, or 1/2 or something. Your spells don't improve when leveling up in another class. Why should wizards levels count toward your fighting prowess

Edit

wolpak

Well, let's just say that this is I early planning stages. Things may/will change, but sometimes your best bet may be a prof that you wouldn't expect, though weapon speed is lame. I may turn that into elemental resistance.

Kits will be altered to work with the system. Barbarians would lose most of their damage resistance, but may be the only class that can 5 star Resistance. This will definitely give more control on where you want to make the kit go. Now you could have a more of a spell casting paladin, or attacking cleric.

I do not plan on giving these to enemies, but it is unnecessary as really, you could just give them more stats rather than code the proficiencies. Why bother when I can just give this monster a 10% crit rate.

I will be only reusing all available proficiencies. No other slots to keep it usable with other mods.

As far as levels go, I think I may go straight max class. Multi class and dual class are more focused on late game as is.

I think I will drop the level requirements to
1 pip: level 1
2 pip: level 3
3 pip: level 6
4 pip: level 10
5 pip: level 15

Then you run off your max class.

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wolpak

subtledoctor, I love your not-so-subtle enthusiasm.

[quote]Are the style profs hard-coded to do style stuff? I suppose you could set every entry in CLSWPBON.2da to zero and then have your scripts do the work. That gets you up to 24 total. What about using the BG1 proficiencies? They're still in the engine. That could be 8 more, for 32 total with up to 5 ranks in each... that's up to 160 feats. Lots of room for variation there.[/quote]

That's the plan. Zero out the 2das. The game will still try to do something when you have a two-handed sword, but it will just add 0, which is how I plan on gaming the system. While I'd love to use more than the 24 proficiencies that they give me, it appears to be an limitation to the ones visible on character creation. Since BG1 profs like blunt and spiked exist, but do not show on the screen, there is no way for a player to add prof points. Similar to the fact that you can actually put up to 7 pips into a prof, only 5 show on that distribution screen (though all 7 do show on the character record). So, it will be 24 feats with 6 ranks in each (since 0 is considered a rank).

[quote]Of course there's no reason each one needs to be rigidly defined in a straight progression. Can I assume that you can basically apply any opcode here? If so, you could get *really* creative. Like, I would combine 'Tenacity' and 'Prevention' and make a single feat that gives +1 saves for the 1st and 2nd rank, +5% MR for the 3rd rank, and maybe +1 saves *and* 5% MR for the 4th rank. Maybe something even more special for the 5th rank, like granting Spell Deflection as an innate ability. For 'Resistance' you could start with 5% DR for the early ranks, and maybe immunity to nonmagical weapons for the 5th rank. Basically I would make the higher rank progressively more beneficial than the lower ranks, and reserve access to them for particular classes/kits.[/quote]

There is absolutely no reason to be rigid. I was eyeballing opcodes on my phone last night in bed, and the Mrs. was a little upset it wasn't lights out. I definitely like the idea of Grand Master giving an interesting final bonus. The entire system reminds me of old skool Might and Magic 6-7 where you have various abilities to rank up in. My old idea was similar to their class progression, though, I have given up on that.

The progressively better than the previous adds in balance concerns depending on how it will work. Like, scaling damage would be like, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 for +15 bonus damage? Maybe 1, 1, 1, 2, 3? Even in it's current situation, +5 damage is significant. I always wondered why D&D and BG downplayed critical strikes so much.

[quote]Max class level sounds fine to me. And 1/3/6/10/15 are the levels I would choose. The level limits thing sounds like the least robust part of this, though, as players might find it hard to keep track of when the points they invest will be effective. I suppose, though, that well-written descriptions can basically take care of that. [/quote]

Sadly, the engine limitation requires some sort of level functionality. I cannot restrict a player from going all in on one proficiency, which, while it makes them not as robust, definitely unbalances the game. So, really, level limits are the only other option.

I think I am going to adjust the 3 weapon proficiencies to what I was planning in my old mod. Not sure why I didn't think of doing it originally.

Light Weaponry
Medium Weaponry
Heavy Weaponry

Classes will focus on 1 or two types (or all 3 for warriors). Like Paladin can perform much better in Medium and Heavy while Rangers Light and Medium.

I did not want to add any "skills" into this process since there is already an process for putting points into skills. It makes it redundant. I also wanted the abilities to be as robust as possible so that pretty much all classes can get some value of at least 1 rank in it. That may involve a lot more creativeness. I do like some of your suggestions and I'll go back to my spreadsheet and take a looksy.

wolpak

@subtledoctor Let me know about the issues you have had with assigning free proficiencies. Back in an older mod that remains unfinished, I was doling out free proficiencies left and right. The problem I had was it wasn't picked up until after the prof selection screen, thus, someone could put one point into a prof that they were going to get for free. So, I had to eliminate all points at level 1. It wasn't the best method.

The only pretty much set in stone ability is the last one...Off Hand. Rangers have 2 free pips and it is hard coded, and I have no problem with that, but I want to keep it as Off Hand and not something else.

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wolpak

On that issue, I think you could probably have gotten around that with some in game scripting.

wolpak

Ok, I have revised the list quite a lot, thanks for your input. I wanted these to pretty much be passive effects. I didn't want to give innates or anything like that. I also added in a line for Skills, mostly because I didn't have too much else to make a proficiency for. Let me know what you think:

(every point shown is cumulative)

LIGHT WEAPONRY
+1 TH +.5APR
+2 TH +1 APR
+3 TH +1.5APR
+4 TH +2APR
+5 TH +2.5APR

MEDIUM WEAPONRY
+1 TH +.5APR
+2 TH +1 APR
+3 TH +1.5APR
+4 TH +2APR
+5 TH +2.5APR

HEAVY WEAPONRY
+1 TH +.5APR
+2 TH +1 APR
+3 TH +1.5APR
+4 TH +2APR
+5 TH +2.5APR

CRITICALSTRIKE
+5% +1 Attack Speed
+10%
+15% +2 AS
+20
+25% +3 AS

IMMUNIZATION
Blindness
Nausea
Disease
Poison
Petrification

ARMORCLASS
+1
+2
+3
+4
Non-Detection

DR
+5%
+10%
+15%
+20%
Prot-Normal Weapons

MR
+5%
+10%
+15% + Prot Lvl1
+20% + Prot Lvl2
+25% + Prot Lvl 3

SAVES
+1
+2
+3
+4
+5

FIRE RES
+20%
+40%
+60%
+80%
+100%

COLD RES
+20%
+40%
+60%
+80%
+100%

BON DAMAGE
+1
+2
+3
+4
+5

SKILLS
+5%
+10%
+15%
+20%
+25%

MOVEMENT
+1
+2
+3
+4
Free-Action

CAST
+1CL +5 Lore
+1CS +5 Lore
+1CL +5 Lore
+1CS +5 Lore
+1CL +5 Lore

BACKSTAB
+1X
+2X
+3X
+4X
+5X

FORTITUDE
+3 HP
+6HP
1/60 Regen +9HP
1/45 Regen +12HP
1/30 Regen +15HP

WIZARDSPELLS
+1,2,3
+1,2,3,4,5
+1,2,3,4,5,6,7
+1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8
+1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9

PRIESTSPELLS
+1,2,3
+1,2,3,4
+1,2,3,4,5
+1,2,3,4,5,6
+1,2,3,4,5,6,7

RANGED
+1 TH + 1 Dam
+2 TH + 2 Dam
+3 TH + 3 Dam
+4 TH + 4 Dam
+5 TH + 5 Dam

WILLPOWER
Fear/Sleep
Charm/Confusion
Hold/Stun
Level Drain
Maze/Imprison

SHIELD
+1 AC Missile
+2 AC Missile
+3 AC Missile
+4 AC Missile
Prot Normal Missiles

XP
+5%
+10%
+15%
+20%
+25%

OFF-HAND
+1 TH OH
+2 TH OH
+3 TH OH
+4 TH OH
+5 TH OH

[Deleted User]

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wolpak

@subtledoctor You are like totally my BG bff.

1) I did want to give a feat to equate to DD's 100% fire resist, but alas, you are probably right. So, it goes 10/20/30/40/50 and in the manner you suggested, Energy for Fire/Elec and Environmental for Cold/Acid. You are better than Thesaurus.com.

2) I am mixed on the 5step or 3 step for MR. I don't want to mix it with Saves as they are two different things like AC and Dam Resist, and also I don't really have any more proficiencies I can come up with feasibly. I do get you about the spell resistance and consider it Axed (I mean Medium Weaponed).

3) Don't worry about the extra spells, because the spell tables will be altered significantly to make this work properly. I get you about putting them together, and while it does open another spot, it also, opens up another spot. I have a deep hatred for cleric/mages...who do they think they are manipulating all magic like that...

4) I am actually working on an update to the bard that will in effect, be like a lingering song where they can fight and sing at the same time (albeit at a significantly reduced movement rate). The problem with a specific feat for the bard or ranger is that it is specific to the bard and ranger.

Right now, of the 24 "feats" I have designated, roughly 18 of them are available to every class. The other 6 are available to multiple classes (I will allow everyone to be able to backstab x2). Bard or Ranger specific abilities go against the breadth that I am looking at here. I'd much rather just code them into the class.

Given that there are 24 feats with 5 ranks in each, that equates to 120 possible allocations. Clearly, not everyone is going to be able to have 5 in everything. Given 40 levels and maybe 2-4 to start, probably the average class can put points into 60-70, I think it will hopefully be ok. I think I'll put the option in for install with either 1 every level, or one every other level. That way, the end user can play as they see fit.

I do want to add, despite the resistances, saves and possibly the immunities, I'll be paring back a lot of standard stuff to balance it where you won't feel over powered but just specialized. I hope.

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Aquadrizzt

@wolpak, I was wondering how you would implement this kind of proficiency system. I was planning on using something similar for my own overhaul mod that I've been working on. Is it through scripting or hidden items or what?

wolpak

It is completely done through scripting. I utilize Drs awesome technique of the hidden salami trick. Script in Balfour.bcs checks if your profs change and if they do, summon a hidden monster and do whatever you need done.

wolpak

I was debating putting in statistical checks to gain benefits. Basically, for level 1 you wouldn't need any check, for level 2-12, for level 3-14, level 4-16 and level 5-18. Then determining how each ability falls under a stat is raised. This is how I have it penciled in:

Strength:
Medium weapons
Heavy weapons
Bonus damage
Shield

Dexterity:
Light weaponry
Armor class
Ranged weaponry
Off- hand bonus

Constitution:
Immunization
Damage resistance
Fire/elec resistance
Fortitude

Intelligence:
Cast speed/level
Backstab
Skills
Wiz spells

Wisdom:
Critical strike
Magic resistance
Priest spells
Willpower

Charisma:
Saves
Cold resistance (this category may change)
Movement
Experience

Some fit nicely, some are wedged in like movement. Some are strange, but justifiable like critical strike, but may end up never being utilized since nobody would 18 wisdom just to max that.

The other option is to lower the limits to maybe 11, 12, 13 and 14 or even start lower at 8, 10, 12, 14.

Or even to make it like 5 cats fall under str and des, 4 under con and int and 3 under wis and chr.

Illustair

This has got to be one of the most interesting mod ideas. 18 stat requirement is just fine. You wouldn't want to have the 5th tier easily accessible to all. Just focus on offering an equally enticing benefit for each attribute category. Whether or not the player would want to max out a stat to 18 just to attain a certain 5th tier - that's already for them to decide.

My two cents though, is it possible to add a permanent "bard-like" effect of companion bonuses? That your presence inspires your companions, and you do that without having to be a bard - that it comes with you being charismatic. As simple as "Leadership" feat perhaps? Or you give off this imposing aura that negatively affects enemies when they see you? Again, this would be under Charisma. But at a decent rate I guess i.e. without having to usurp the role of Bards; and if you're a Bard, it would just complement your class skills.

Or how about adding "reaction" bonuses at an earlier tier for a certain feat? For example, for roleplaying purposes, this certain feat has a "+2 to reaction" at tier 1 and tier 3, sort of like silver-tongued feat, and I would put a point on it and I now effectively have a fighter that has a relatively low Charisma say 12, 14, 15, who is now as charismatic as 14, 16 and 18 respectively; that it is an acquired skill rather than as inborn or as innate as an attribute. Anyway, just something to think about. Also under Charisma.

As you might have noticed, I'm a bit obsessed with Charisma. That's partly because I'm hoping that you'd consider moving the "Insight" feat to Wisdom. That seems more appropriate. Or maybe have it switch places with "Mobility" and change it to "Dashing" maybe? Although for it to be in the same context as "more to speed", it should be the gerund verb dashing rather than the adjective one (e.g. dashing looks) - and that's not very "Charismatic". Maybe you can justify the moving of "Dashing" to Charisma, by its synonym spirited or lively. Far stretched reasoning I know, but at least in turn Insight would be now on its proper place.

By the way, I'm all for having more under some category and less for others. And to adding a special benefit to 5th tier; that should add flavor to it, and would give the player an incentive for maxing out a feat.

Darkersun

This is my overhaul wet dream! The possibility's are awesome!

Is it possible to change how stats are handled? If you have a requirement rolling higher stats would be come even more important and they are random. I think that would have a bad influence on the balance of the system.

For example make the system give 80 points for the ability stats and than add 1 point ever 3 levels?
Or something like that.

Or change the stats requirement -> just limit the profs depending on class and kit?

Right now ability stats would feel out of place for a system that is so adaptive.


I really like subtledoctor idea of giving level 5 special ability's and only one class/kit can get all 5 points, making them unique.:

Like, you could do a "shadow" feat that goes
- +10% HiS/MS
- +10% HiS/MS, +1 backstab multiplier
- +10% HiS/MS, +1 backstab multiplier
- Innate Shadowstep
- Innate Improved Invisibility


Also you could do class specific profs:

Fighter/Barbarians -> Combat Reflex
Dmg Res, ToHit, Movment,
Paladin -> Divine Power
Protection from Evil, Protection from Evil (Area), Divine Wrath
Ranger -> Hunting
HiS/MS, Charm Animal,
Thiefs -> Shadow
Like
Bards -> Charm
Clerics -> Divine Grace
Druids -> Nature / Animal
Mages/Sorcerers -> Spellpower
Monks -> Diamond Soul

So 8 Class specific profs. and that we would still have like 16 generic for all to take.

Is it possible to have different effects for each prof depending on Kits?
For Example:

Shadow pip 5:
Bounty Hunter gets "special trap"
Assassin gets "special poison"
Swashbuckler gets "Dirty Trick"
Shadowdancer gets "Improved Invisibility"

Just some ideas out of my mind, but I have no idea if there are doable or worthwhile.

Good like with this awesome overhaul
Real class customization would be great!

wolpak

@Illustair @Darkersun
So, I spent the better part of the last hour updating the first post with my most recent decisions on how this will be laid out. I think I cam to a nice balance between focusing all on one stat and a balance between the stats. Also, with the extra stat point per 4 levels AND the modding of items to change them to +1, +2, +3 instead of flat 18 bonus, will help.

If you are interested, please reread the first post, at least the part about the proficiencies. I'll take all suggestions, but it will definitely be easier if you try to keep it in context of the plan, like, move insight from Charisma to Charisma and Intelligence, but replace it with Prevention, because to be able to withstand cold temperatures, you have to be a happy person.

wolpak

Here are some example text updates that I have written up:
-------------
STRENGTH: Strength measures a character's muscle, endurance, and stamina.

It governs the following proficiencies:
Power
Bulwark

It co-governs the following proficiencies:
Medium Weaponry
Heavy Weaponry

Minimum:
Maximum:
-------------
You have been given proficiencies to start your character with. Choose from the above list any of the highlighted proficiencies.

Keep in mind that although you may be able to put a point into a proficiency, you may not reap the benefit until the appropriate requirements have been reached.

Prof Points / Level Required (for multi-class and dual-class characters, this is your highest class level).
1 / 1
2 / 3
3 / 6
4 / 9
5 / 12
6 / 15
7 / 18

Proficiencies with 1 controlling stat:
Prof Points / Min Stat Req
1 / 12
2 / 14
3 / 16
4 / 18
5 / 20
6 / 22
7 / 24

Proficiencies with 2 controlling stats:
Prof Points / Min Stat1 Req / Min Stat2 Req
1 / 12 / 12
2 / 13 / 13
3 / 14 / 14
4 / 15 / 15
5 / 16 / 16
6 / 17 / 17
7 / 18 / 18

While you may not gain the benefits of the proficiency right away, you may still increase the total and when you reach the appropriate level, you will gain the benefit.

***PLEASE NOTE: Due to UI limitations, you will not be able to see 6th and 7th proficiency buttons, but you can assign them and will see them on your character record screen***
---------------
Avoidance (Dexterity/Intelligence): Knowledge of your enemy's movements allows the character to be not where the enemy's weapon is.

Novice (1 slot): (requires Level 1, 12 Dex and 12 Int)
The character gains 1 AC. (+1 AC cumulative)

Proficient (2 slots): (requires Level 3, 13 Dex and 13 Int)
The character gains 1 AC. (+2 AC cumulative)

Competent (3 slots): (requires Level 6, 14 Dex and 14 Int)
The character gains 1 AC. (+3 AC cumulative)

Adept (4 slots): (requires Level 9, 15 Dex and 15 Int)
The character gains 1 AC. (+4 AC cumulative)

Specialized (5 slots): (requires Level 12, 16 Dex and 16 Int)
The character gains 1 AC. (+5 AC cumulative)

Master (6 slots): (requires Level 15, 17 Dex and 17 Int)
The character gains 1 AC. (+6 AC cumulative)

Grand Master (7 slots): (requires Level 18, 18 Dex and 18 Int)
The character gains 1 AC and Non-Detection Ability (+7 AC and Non-Detection)
----------------
FIGHTER: The Fighter is a champion, swords, soldier, and brawler who lives or dies by knowledge of weapons and tactics. Fighters can be found at the front of any battle, contesting toe-to-toe with monsters and villains. A good Fighter needs to be strong and healthy if hopes to survive.

CLASS FEATURES:

-May wear helmets.
-May wear any armor.
-Hit Die: d10

PROFICIENCIES:
-May achieve Grand Mastery (seven slots) with Light Weaponry, Medium Weaponry, Heavy Weaponry, Marksmanship, Power, Bulwark and Coordination.
-May achieve Mastery (six slots) in Precision and Fortitude.
-May achieve Specialization (five slots) in Resistance.
-May achieve Adeptness (four slots) in Avoidance.
-May achieve Competency (three slots) in Prevention.
-May achieve Proficient (two slots) in Tenacity, Tolerance, Mobility and Willpower.
-May achieve Novice (one slot) in Obstinacy, Lethality, Immunization and Insight.

Prime Requisites For Dual-Classing: Strength

wolpak

Illustair said:

My two cents though, is it possible to add a permanent "bard-like" effect of companion bonuses? That your presence inspires your companions, and you do that without having to be a bard - that it comes with you being charismatic. As simple as "Leadership" feat perhaps? Or you give off this imposing aura that negatively affects enemies when they see you? Again, this would be under Charisma. But at a decent rate I guess i.e. without having to usurp the role of Bards; and if you're a Bard, it would just complement your class skills.

This is interesting and I like the idea. I am definitely not in love with Insight.

How about something like this:
Inspire (affects party members in a 10ft radius):
1: +1 THAC0 (melee and ranged)
2: +1 Dam (melee and ranged)
3: +1 AC
4: +5% Elemental Resistance
5: +1 Saves
6: +5% Magic Resistance
7: +5% Crit

Sort of a catch all for 1 point in may profs. I will look to see if it is possible to make these effects NOT stack if more than one person has it, and if so, also make it so it does not affect the character.

I'll make this Charisma prof (a) and if I can't do it right, I'll fall back on Insight.

wolpak

Here is my initial layout for the main 10 classes. Since Mage and Sorcerer share a line on the spreadsheet (is it possible to add a row for Sorcerer?)

Fighter
Avoidance 4
Fortitude 6
Resistance 5
Prevention 3
Tenacity 2
Tolerance 2
Obstinacy 1
Expertise 0
Lethality 1
Immunization 1
Mobility 2
Willpower 2
Aptitude 0
Acumen 0
Devoutness 0
Inspire 1
Light Weaponry 7
Medium Weaponry 7
Heavy Weaponry 7
Marksmanship 7
Power 7
Bulwark 7
Precision 6
Coordination 7

Thief
Avoidance 7
Fortitude 2
Resistance 3
Prevention 1
Tenacity 3
Tolerance 2
Obstinacy 4
Expertise 7
Lethality 6
Immunization 1
Mobility 4
Willpower 2
Aptitude 0
Acumen 0
Devoutness 0
Inspire 4
Light Weaponry 5
Medium Weaponry 3
Heavy Weaponry 1
Marksmanship 5
Power 4
Bulwark 3
Precision 6
Coordination 7

Cleric
Avoidance 2
Fortitude 4
Resistance 4
Prevention 4
Tenacity 6
Tolerance 4
Obstinacy 5
Expertise 0
Lethality 1
Immunization 4
Mobility 1
Willpower 7
Aptitude 5
Acumen 0
Devoutness 7
Inspire 3
Light Weaponry 1
Medium Weaponry 3
Heavy Weaponry 5
Marksmanship 2
Power 3
Bulwark 5
Precision 1
Coordination 3

Mage/Sorc
Avoidance 4
Fortitude 2
Resistance 2
Prevention 4
Tenacity 6
Tolerance 6
Obstinacy 6
Expertise 0
Lethality 2
Immunization 4
Mobility 3
Willpower 5
Aptitude 7
Acumen 7
Devoutness 0
Inspire 5
Light Weaponry 3
Medium Weaponry 2
Heavy Weaponry 1
Marksmanship 3
Power 1
Bulwark 0
Precision 3
Coordination 4

Paladin
Avoidance 3
Fortitude 5
Resistance 5
Prevention 2
Tenacity 5
Tolerance 4
Obstinacy 6
Expertise 0
Lethality 1
Immunization 5
Mobility 1
Willpower 5
Aptitude 4
Acumen 0
Devoutness 5
Inspire 5
Light Weaponry 3
Medium Weaponry 6
Heavy Weaponry 6
Marksmanship 3
Power 6
Bulwark 7
Precision 3
Coordination 4

Ranger
Avoidance 5
Fortitude 5
Resistance 2
Prevention 6
Tenacity 1
Tolerance 5
Obstinacy 3
Expertise 4
Lethality 3
Immunization 4
Mobility 5
Willpower 3
Aptitude 3
Acumen 0
Devoutness 4
Inspire 2
Light Weaponry 6
Medium Weaponry 6
Heavy Weaponry 3
Marksmanship 6
Power 4
Bulwark 3
Precision 5
Coordination 7

Druid
Avoidance 4
Fortitude 3
Resistance 4
Prevention 7
Tenacity 3
Tolerance 6
Obstinacy 4
Expertise 0
Lethality 1
Immunization 5
Mobility 3
Willpower 2
Aptitude 5
Acumen 0
Devoutness 7
Inspire 4
Light Weaponry 3
Medium Weaponry 3
Heavy Weaponry 3
Marksmanship 3
Power 2
Bulwark 3
Precision 2
Coordination 3

Bard
Avoidance 5
Fortitude 3
Resistance 1
Prevention 3
Tenacity 6
Tolerance 3
Obstinacy 7
Expertise 4
Lethality 2
Immunization 3
Mobility 2
Willpower 3
Aptitude 5
Acumen 4
Devoutness 0
Inspire 7
Light Weaponry 4
Medium Weaponry 4
Heavy Weaponry 4
Marksmanship 4
Power 3
Bulwark 3
Precision 3
Coordination 4

Monk
Avoidance 7
Fortitude 7
Resistance 5
Prevention 3
Tenacity 5
Tolerance 3
Obstinacy 5
Expertise 5
Lethality 3
Immunization 7
Mobility 7
Willpower 7
Aptitude 0
Acumen 0
Devoutness 0
Inspire 5
Light Weaponry 3
Medium Weaponry 3
Heavy Weaponry 0
Marksmanship 3
Power 5
Bulwark 0
Precision 7
Coordination 0

Barbarian
Avoidance 5
Fortitude 7
Resistance 7
Prevention 5
Tenacity 1
Tolerance 5
Obstinacy 1
Expertise 0
Lethality 2
Immunization 5
Mobility 6
Willpower 1
Aptitude 0
Acumen 0
Devoutness 0
Inspire 1
Light Weaponry 5
Medium Weaponry 6
Heavy Weaponry 6
Marksmanship 6
Power 7
Bulwark 4
Precision 3
Coordination 7

wolpak

Lastly, for now, I tried to balance them as much as I could against each other.

Thief, Cleric, Mage/Sorc and Druid have 80 available prof points.
Fighter, Bard and Monk have 85.
Barbarian has 90.
Paladin and Ranger have 95.

Fighters and Barbarians are very top and bottom heavy.
Thieves and Mages/Sorcs are spread out.
Bards, Druids and Clerics are middle heavy.
Paladins and Rangers are middle top heavy.
Monks only have abilities that they can put 7, 5, 3 or 0 points into.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

wolpak

@subtledoctor For sake of simplicity I may just script it. If player1 has ability, apply spell to player3, player3...

Aquadrizzt

IMO I would steer away from exceeding 5 proficiency points per proficiency track. The UI does not support more than 5 (as you noted), but I don't think you should have any features that fall under a "you won't see it update until later, but it does update..." I also think that 7 proficiency points is going to make hte tracks feel way too spread out.

Illustair

Awesome update. But no more Insight?:c that was one of the more interesting feats that would get the player thinking, whether he should invest for exp bonus and reap the benefits for later at the expense of getting stronger now.

How will multiclass be handled with regards to feat cap?

Edit: you have the same rate of APR for light and heavy weapons? Also, under Leathality, isn't +7 a bit too overpowered? How about placing fillers at tier 2, 4, and 6, so at the max is +4x backstab multiplier? Can you do like a "wound/bleeding" effect? The 5th tier for Inspire IMO deserves a bit more than a mere +5% crit.

wolpak

@Aquadrizzt I gotcha and I definitely wrestled with that. The problem is functionality. You end up with 120 total proficiency points and, on average, a class would need 60-70 of them. That leaves it as just a maximizing tool and not really a decide on choice tool. If the UI managed it perfectly, it wouldn't be an issue at all. It is still manageable and now there are 168 total proficiancies with a class maxing out around 95. When they get around 45 for the game, it makes the decisions matter that much more.