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Most Important Issue: AI -- will only buy if much better than vanilla. (Also, what about SCS?)

YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060
in Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear
To me IWDEE was a waste of money...
I like Beamdog. I really do. And I make a point of supporting their products. But IWDEE is unplayable for me after years of playing BG/BG2 with SCS. (e.g. casting an AoE cloud unseen and have the enemy NOT run away is just intolerable by now.)

The cosmetic improvements are largely useless to me without the essential improvement of AI.

I will continue my support of Beamdog and sing praises for its products from mountain tops *IF* the following happens:

- Upgraded AI
(Just charge me for it somehow; I don't expect its development to be free. But SCS shows that good AI in an IE game is possible!)

- Good writing & narrative in the expansion.

- Make an effort for SCS compatibility
(also for compatibility for new Shaman class in BGEE/BG2EE with SCS).

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Comments

  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060
    Thanks, @Ardanis this is good to hear.

    Follow-up question:

    Can the new Shaman class be played in a trilogy run? (i.e. in BG1 & BG2)

    If SoD is a BG1 expansion, I wonder how it's new class can be used in BG2.
  • cmk24cmk24 Member Posts: 605
    Ygramul said:

    Thanks, @Ardanis this is good to hear.

    Follow-up question:

    Can the new Shaman class be played in a trilogy run? (i.e. in BG1 & BG2)

    If SoD is a BG1 expansion, I wonder how it's new class can be used in BG2.

    There will be a patch for BG:EE and BG2:EE that includes the new class into those games. The BG:EE patch will come out with SoD, the patch for BG2:EE will be shortly after.
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,538
    Not certain whether i should point it out but since SoD is not released yet, any version of its AI is actually the vanilla version. Therefore to have a better AI you need to wait for a mod or patch :p

    I agree that an AI better than bg1 and bg2 would be most welcome. I am also very interested in the player party assignable AI scripts. Smart autonomous party members would be awesome.
  • necaradan666necaradan666 Member Posts: 9
    SCS is great, but the idea to include it in an official way is terrible. There are so many different options to choose between for each persons preferred playstyle.. in an official release those options would likely be preselected. Not being able to select which ones I want in my game would be beyond unsuitable. For example the many times I scouted out Cloakwood with an invisible thief only to have a phase spider for no reason teleport entirely across the map directly in front of my mage for a near instant kill before I started to decline installing that component.
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060
    I don't want SCS be officially included with all its options. I just want ...
    ***SCS-grade AI***

    If one person could achieve SCS, surely years of paid Beamdog developer time could do no less.

    And I will gladly pay for the effort.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,758
    It's an awesome news, @Ardanis
    Ardanis said:


    SoD vs SCS

    I just hope that the SCS mod will become compatible with the new version of BGEE and BG2EE, and with SoD of course one day. @DavidW , it would be stunning to get an updated version of the mod as soon as possible.

    So that it could be SoD + SCS ;)
  • InstantCoffeeInstantCoffee Member Posts: 8
    Will the characters both in BG and BG2 use the new improved AI too?
  • MadrictMadrict Member Posts: 141
    Yeah I know that they are planning to patch BGEE and BG2EE with the engine upgrades from SoD....does that include AI improvements?
  • cmk24cmk24 Member Posts: 605
    Madrict said:

    Yeah I know that they are planning to patch BGEE and BG2EE with the engine upgrades from SoD....does that include AI improvements?

    Seeing as the AI is part of the game engine I would think yes.
  • MadrictMadrict Member Posts: 141
    cmk24 said:

    Madrict said:

    Yeah I know that they are planning to patch BGEE and BG2EE with the engine upgrades from SoD....does that include AI improvements?

    Seeing as the AI is part of the game engine I would think yes.
    Well that is awesome if true, I hope so :D
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited August 2015
    They should not change the AI for BG:EE/BGII:EE unless it's an optional feature.
  • MadrictMadrict Member Posts: 141
    Yes they should improve it.....
  • JediMindTrixJediMindTrix Member Posts: 305
    Madrict said:

    Yes they should improve it.....

  • BelegCuthalionBelegCuthalion Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 454
    As i have had SCS/Ascension combined configurations that really killed my playing experience (really way way too hard even for a well experienced but non-powerplay player), i wish there was some official (tested) AI improvement i can try, that somewhat stands in between the harder forms of SCS and the now far too easy standard AI.
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060
    Dee said:


    Just a point of clarification: AI is not part of the game engine. AI is driven by scripts, which are set on a per-creature basis. Some creatures share the same script, but integrating SoD's advanced AI into BG:EE is somewhat more complex than simply merging the code bases together.

    I'd be willing to pay good money for a BGEE/BG2EE expansion the major point of which is an AI overhaul. I don't think I'm the only one either. For marketing purposes, throw in a few kits etc. (not necessarily quests or new content) and it may well be a sales hit.
  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 377
    Ygramul said:

    Dee said:


    Just a point of clarification: AI is not part of the game engine. AI is driven by scripts, which are set on a per-creature basis. Some creatures share the same script, but integrating SoD's advanced AI into BG:EE is somewhat more complex than simply merging the code bases together.

    I'd be willing to pay good money for a BGEE/BG2EE expansion the major point of which is an AI overhaul. I don't think I'm the only one either. For marketing purposes, throw in a few kits etc. (not necessarily quests or new content) and it may well be a sales hit.
    I seriously doubt that.
    For one, SCS is a free mod that -as far as I understand it- does that already.
    Also.. I'm not sure about the market for that, I could be wrong but I still believe that it would be
    a niche thing -but probably expensive to do.
  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,060
    Arcanis said:

    Also.. I'm not sure about the market for that, I could be wrong but I still believe that it would be
    a niche thing -but probably expensive to do.

    No. Sorry. Good AI is not a niche thing.

    I'm thinking you just don't understand how crucial it was to keep BG alive.

    Many people played BG/BG2 over the past 15 years because SCS and other challenges made it a very rewarding experience for well-thought out gameplay: you won by making excellent tactical decisions. AI consistently killed you, if you haven't.

    There is nothing like this anywhere. NOT A SINGLE RPG.

    I really would want to play IWD, NWN1/2, Witcher, DAO etc. more often, but they are just nothing gameplay-wise, when compared to BG+SCS.

    Pillars of Eternity is just nothing gameplay-wise, when compared to BG+SCS.


    Good AI is the linchpin for suspension of disbelief.

    If a game company wants my money and my support, I expect them to deliver good AI in their RPG *FIRST AND FOREMOST*.
  • MadrictMadrict Member Posts: 141
    I would love BGEE and BG2EE to receive the AI improvements from SoD....would pay!
  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 377
    @Ygramul
    The problem is that in BG good AI made the battles insanely difficulty.
    Also, I think the content mod where just as cruciul, if not more so.

    You can also say, if it isn't a niche market, then why is there rarely a game with that dificulty?
    You would think that the big companies would make games that sell.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    The Baldur's Gate games are a niche market to begin with. Insanely difficult Baldur's Gate is a niche within a niche.

    I play Baldur's Gate for the story, and to recreate the experience of PnP gaming (where players rarely loose a fight unless they act stupidly).
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    edited August 2015
    cmk24 said:

    Madrict said:

    Yeah I know that they are planning to patch BGEE and BG2EE with the engine upgrades from SoD....does that include AI improvements?

    Seeing as the AI is part of the game engine I would think yes.
    The AI is part of game data (not the engine). Like dialogue. So this isn't automatic.
    Before you say, this sucks, consider that this is what made SCS possible in the first place.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,758
    edited August 2015
    I think that @Ygramul tells us about the never-ending Baldur's Gate No-Reload Challenge threads on bioware forums:

    http://forum.bioware.com/topic/124374-baldurs-gate-1-no-reload-challenge/ with 583 pages

    http://forum.bioware.com/topic/124277-baldurs-gate-2-no-reload-challenge/ with 552 pages

    They started a long ago and before that there had been even older threads with lots and lots of pages. Those players who participate in challenges like those generally use the SCS mod and can't imagine their BG games without it.

    There're a lot of players, no doubt about it, who appreciate the good AI.

    So, to me, while the good AI alone should not be the main focus of Beamdog team, it should, at least, be one of their main aims. And from what we hear about SoD, I think they're going to make it.
    Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,538
    Having AI scale with difficulty is a good thing.
  • cmk24cmk24 Member Posts: 605
    Avenger_teambg said:

    cmk24 said:

    Madrict said:

    Yeah I know that they are planning to patch BGEE and BG2EE with the engine upgrades from SoD....does that include AI improvements?

    Seeing as the AI is part of the game engine I would think yes.
    The AI is part of game data (not the engine). Like dialogue. So this isn't automatic.
    Before you say, this sucks, consider that this is what made SCS possible in the first place.
    Thanks for the clarification.
  • InstantCoffeeInstantCoffee Member Posts: 8
    Dee said:

    cmk24 said:

    Madrict said:

    Yeah I know that they are planning to patch BGEE and BG2EE with the engine upgrades from SoD....does that include AI improvements?

    Seeing as the AI is part of the game engine I would think yes.
    Just a point of clarification: AI is not part of the game engine. AI is driven by scripts, which are set on a per-creature basis. Some creatures share the same script, but integrating SoD's advanced AI into BG:EE is somewhat more complex than simply merging the code bases together.
    And are you going to integrate the advanced AI into BGEE, BG2E too?
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    I can't answer that question, I'm afraid. "Integrate" is the wrong word, though; a change of this magnitude would involve rewriting the existing AI, not simply setting a few flags.

    I'm not involved with the AI for the game so I don't know what's being planned there, but I do know that such an undertaking would be enormous.
  • InstantCoffeeInstantCoffee Member Posts: 8
    edited August 2015
    Thanks for the answer anyway.

  • kcwisekcwise Member Posts: 2,287
    If Beamdog was going to tackle something like this I'd think they would start with IWD first since it doesn't have its own version of an SCS mod.
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