*Spoilers!* Minsc liking you in starter dungeon issue (BG2EE)

heebejeebes

I've always thought of Gorion's Ward as an evil character. I have always wanted to do an evil playthrough of Baldur's Gate but always get perturbed when I import over to BG2 and Minsc is alive and friends with my character. Didn't I kill you and your witch a year ago buddy?

So I ask, do you think the BG2EE will add some slight alterations to Irenicus's Dungeon in order to address the Edwin vs Minsc\Dynaheir Quest in BG1. Most of the other characters you might have killed in BG1 that appear in BG2 have a player dialog choice of "Didn't I kill you?" with a NPC response of something like "Death is such a temporary thing for one of my power Mwhahaha" or something like that. The only conflict problem is that Minsc likes you at the start no matter what. The game should read your save file variables alter the dialog slightly to make Minsc royally pissed to see you if you killed Dynaheir in BG1. Also, remove the meat pile that is supposed to be Dynaheir from the other cell. Should be easy enough. Don't you all think?

Talvrae

They can't change content already in the game

Razor

Reading the saves would be nice but it's one of those things that isnt possible without changing the game too much.
The npcs that you kill... well, kill them again, there is nothing they could say really... Besides:
"I know you killed me, and this is crazy, but I'am canon, so party maybe?"

zarffyn

Razor said:

Besides:
"I know you killed me, and this is crazy, but I'am canon, so party maybe?"

Laughing. So. HARD.

Schneidend

It's a little weird, I'll admit, but the issue here is that the beginning of BG2 poorly designed. The dungeon itself was cool, but the game's early narrative, including giving you a very polarizing initial goal, is utter shit. It apparently never occurred to Bioware that rescuing Imoen or killing Irenicus might not be very compelling reasons to go to an extremely dangerous magical prison you know nothing about.

Jolanthus

Schneidend said:

killing Irenicus might not be very compelling reasons to go to an extremely dangerous magical prison you know nothing about.

Because getting your soul back is not incentive enough?

Talvrae

Jolanthus said:

Schneidend said:

killing Irenicus might not be very compelling reasons to go to an extremely dangerous magical prison you know nothing about.

Because getting your soul back is not incentive enough?

When you go to the prison you don't have loose your soul yet

SharGuidesMyHand

Razor said:

"I know you killed me, and this is crazy, but I'am canon, so party maybe?"

Hilarious! - and so true, LOL.

As much as I loved BG2 (much more than BG1 in fact), one of my biggest pet peeves is with the lack of continuity between the games. I would've NEVER played through with a party consisting of Minsc, Jaheira, and Khalid, who were among the more mediocre NPS in BG1 IMO (yes, even Minsc - there, I said it!). By contrast, Kivan, Coran, and Shar-Teel were staples of my BG1 parties, yet they were all excluded as playable characters in BG2.

For me, BG2 always felt like a separate entity rather than a direct sequel to BG1.

spacejaws

Well in the beginning CHARNAME does have some dialogue choices that allude to being interested in the "untapped potential" of CHARNAME's Bhallspawn heritage. More power from your dark lineage is sufficient drive for evil characters.

heebejeebes

Thanks for the replies guys. I guess since they are still supporting mods I could make the "This is for evil play throughs mod" That you only install if you played evil. The mod would change Minsc's dialog throughout the game. You could talk him down in the dungeon and get him to work with you temporarily for mutual escape, and he grudgingly agrees. Perhaps he'll warm up to you later, or perhaps not.

Schneidend

Jolanthus said:

Because getting your soul back is not incentive enough?

As @Talvrae pointed out, you don't actually lose your soul until you go to Spellhold, COMPLETELY screwing yourself over for basically no reason.

spacejaws said:

Well in the beginning CHARNAME does have some dialogue choices that allude to being interested in the "untapped potential" of CHARNAME's Bhallspawn heritage. More power from your dark lineage is sufficient drive for evil characters.

Nope. Irenicus captured, imprisoned, and tortured me. Why would I trust his word that torturing me was somehow beneficial to me. Even if it were beneficial, why would I trust him after he has given ZERO indication as to why he wants me to be more powerful. If we had brokered a deal where he wanted me to get really strong and help him blow up Suldanesselar for his revenge, sure, but no. That did not occur.

Eyebrows

Its just like how when you encounter Xzar or Edwin (I always play as close to my alignment of Neutral/Chaotic Good so I usually turn them into meat shields rather quickly)
"Didnt I kill you?"
"Oh, I got better"

The fun with writing plots for universes with resurrection (much like time travel) is that if you kill off a character and if people like him too much (or if you want to have another sub-plot or tie up a loose end) you can always just resurrect them with little complaints from readers.


My reasons why each of the "Canon" party members being there in Amn for Evil CHARNAMEs
Imoen - Taken by Irenicus for obvious reasons
Jaheria/Khalid - Harper duties observing/protecting CHARNAME and got noticed by Irenicus or intervened during the abduction and got captured
Minsc/Dynaheir- They are probably the most unlikely to come on their own free will. The best I can come up with (outside contact with other NPCs namely J/K) is that they were in the area when CHARNAME gets abducted and Minsc being Minsc went to intervene and Irenicus abducts them

As for any Evil NPCs not being there is they probably left CHARNAME before the abduction being together only to repay debts which were paid, or to deal with a greater threat which was dealt with, or to find someone less boring with his/her nemesis being killed is more boring.

aldain

Schneidend said:

Jolanthus said:

Because getting your soul back is not incentive enough?

As @Talvrae pointed out, you don't actually lose your soul until you go to Spellhold, COMPLETELY screwing yourself over for basically no reason.

spacejaws said:

Well in the beginning CHARNAME does have some dialogue choices that allude to being interested in the "untapped potential" of CHARNAME's Bhallspawn heritage. More power from your dark lineage is sufficient drive for evil characters.

Nope. Irenicus captured, imprisoned, and tortured me. Why would I trust his word that torturing me was somehow beneficial to me. Even if it were beneficial, why would I trust him after he has given ZERO indication as to why he wants me to be more powerful. If we had brokered a deal where he wanted me to get really strong and help him blow up Suldanesselar for his revenge, sure, but no. That did not occur.

Wouldn't neutralizing a serious threat to your own well-being be enough for an evil character? Irenicus had you captured without breaking a sweat, tortured you... it's not likely he's going to leave you alone just because you managed to escape once. Logic would seem to dictate that it's better to come after him as soon as possible than have him come after you once he's ready for it. And, as said, if you have him at your mercy you could probably force him to tell you everything you want about tapping your power. It's a double-evil win!

Of course, if you're a lunatic (Chaotic Neutral), you might not buy that reasoning, but I think we can cut Bioware some slack on trying to figure out an appropriate motivation for blithering maniacs.

Schneidend

aldain said:

Wouldn't neutralizing a serious threat to your own well-being be enough for an evil character? Irenicus had you captured without breaking a sweat, tortured you... it's not likely he's going to leave you alone just because you managed to escape once. Logic would seem to dictate that it's better to come after him as soon as possible than have him come after you once he's ready for it. And, as said, if you have him at your mercy you could probably force him to tell you everything you want about tapping your power. It's a double-evil win!

Of course, if you're a lunatic (Chaotic Neutral), you might not buy that reasoning, but I think we can cut Bioware some slack on trying to figure out an appropriate motivation for blithering maniacs.

As far as the PC knows, being in Spellhold already neutralizes Irenicus. There's literally no need to go after him, since you don't actually know he breaks free and takes over.

aldain

Schneidend said:

aldain said:

Wouldn't neutralizing a serious threat to your own well-being be enough for an evil character? Irenicus had you captured without breaking a sweat, tortured you... it's not likely he's going to leave you alone just because you managed to escape once. Logic would seem to dictate that it's better to come after him as soon as possible than have him come after you once he's ready for it. And, as said, if you have him at your mercy you could probably force him to tell you everything you want about tapping your power. It's a double-evil win!

Of course, if you're a lunatic (Chaotic Neutral), you might not buy that reasoning, but I think we can cut Bioware some slack on trying to figure out an appropriate motivation for blithering maniacs.

As far as the PC knows, being in Spellhold already neutralizes Irenicus. There's literally no need to go after him, since you don't actually know he breaks free and takes over.

I'm having trouble depicting an evil Bhaalspawn trusting anyone to hold a very dangerous enemy of his.

"Alright, this incredibly powerful wizard did all kinds of horrible things to me. But he's in some sort of mages' prison, for a period of time and under safety precautions both of which I am completely unaware, so I can be certain he'll never bother me again. And yeah he tortured me, but it's not like I hold a grudge! Live and let live I say, like all evil characters.".

I'm not saying it's ironclad (no ingame motivation could be, since for all Bioware knew your character was a sloth that really just wanted to spend his life getting drunk at the nearest tavern and never left Candlekeep), but I still think it holds water pretty well.

Schneidend

Then you apparently have trouble imagining anybody that is capable of assimilating and remembering information. You're told nobody ever comes back from Spellhold, and that a cadre of powerful wizards polices both the prison and all magic in Athkatla. You even suffer their seemingly omniscient wrath for something as simple as casting Magic Missile. Given these facts, you'd have to be a complete idiot to just assume that Irenicus is a threat to you based on nothing but the possibility that he might escape. Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I mean, a comet might barrel through the planet at ungodly speed thanks to its incredible density, killing everybody nigh instantaneously, so I should probably plan my day around that mathematical certainty, right?

heebejeebes

Thats the thing with CRPGs. There's no DM to alter things slightly in favor of certain character persoanlities. We have to bare with it.

aldain

Schneidend said:

Then you apparently have trouble imagining anybody that is capable of assimilating and remembering information. You're told nobody ever comes back from Spellhold, and that a cadre of powerful wizards polices both the prison and all magic in Athkatla. You even suffer their seemingly omniscient wrath for something as simple as casting Magic Missile. Given these facts, you'd have to be a complete idiot to just assume that Irenicus is a threat to you based on nothing but the possibility that he might escape. Yeah, I guess that makes sense. I mean, a comet might barrel through the planet at ungodly speed thanks to its incredible density, killing everybody nigh instantaneously, so I should probably plan my day around that mathematical certainty, right?

Let's review what the character (hencefort Bhaalspawn) knows. Bhaalspawn was captured, quite easily. Bhaalspawn was tortured for some time. The person responsible for this (henceforth Irenicus) first cut his way through an entire assault force of thieves and their allies, then immediately after single-handedly butchered a full group of these so-called "powerful wizards". In fact, the only reason Irenicus was even apprehended was because the wizards had such numbers, in Athkathla, they could just keep throwing bodies at him until he was spent. Even then, Irenicus was able to essentially threaten the wizards into bringing Imoen with them. Though I can agree she would probably have been apprehended either way.
Bhaalspawn can reasonably assume Irenicus won't leave Bhaalspawn alone. So Bhaalspawn then pins his hopes on these wizards, whom Irenicus brutalized with laughable ease, to keep Irenicus from coming after Bhaalspawn?


As for the comet: Do you know what a straw man argument is? This is a pretty good example of one.
"The odds of Irenicus escaping are, from my viewpoint, very low. Because of this, and the fact that you are arguing in favor of such an eventuality, you must obviously also propagate for planning around all events with infinitesimally small odds of occurring, such as a comet striking Faerun and killing everyone."
It's a cheap rhetorical ploy that works better in live discussions than on a forum, since in the latter case the logical fallacy is easily exposed.

shawne

Schneidend said:

Then you apparently have trouble imagining anybody that is capable of assimilating and remembering information. You're told nobody ever comes back from Spellhold, and that a cadre of powerful wizards polices both the prison and all magic in Athkatla. You even suffer their seemingly omniscient wrath for something as simple as casting Magic Missile. Given these facts, you'd have to be a complete idiot to just assume that Irenicus is a threat to you based on nothing but the possibility that he might escape.

Except that the Cowled Wizards don't overpower Irenicus - he surrenders, and only after making sure he and Imoen are heading to the same place. It's pretty clear that he wants to go to Spellhold, which means you should at least be concerned that the prison isn't quite as secure as everyone thinks.

shawne

@heebejeebes: Minsc also believes in giant space hamsters and has an intelligence of 8. It's not too much of a stretch that someone - perhaps even Irenicus - resurrected him in order to learn more about the Bhaalspawn, and Minsc's gotten more mixed up than usual in the process.

Lemernis

I think it's a very good observation that the OP is making in general, not just about Minsc but any of the NPCs from BG1. There should be a dialog option for PCs who would have chosen not to adventure with Imoen, Jaheira, or Minsc for whatever reason. Perhaps a motivated modder who agrees might add such a tweak to an existing mod. Beamdog is restricted from making changes like this to the existing story and characters.

Djimmy

I guess you are not supposed to kill Minsc in BG1, so he is with you in BG2. There is no problem in killing Imoen in BG1, but does this mean that she should not be with you in BG2? As Drizzt says, I think not.

AndrewRogue

Being worried about Irenicus makes sense. I'm a little rusty, but doesn't he more or less get tired of dealing with the wizards and agree to go with them? When villains do that, it usually isn't because they feel threatened.

That aside, honestly, the two motivations provided are solid enough. There is no way to account for every possible Bhaalspawn motivation out there. I mean, BG1/2 don't provide the ability to retire and become a baker. Even in relatively free choice games, there is some degree of conceit and willingness to follow the "plot."

Hell, this stuff comes up in real tabletop games as well. A truly obstinate player can destroy the game without issue, so there is some expectation that everyone at the table will make characters with a vested interest in the existing scenario.

kilroy_was_here

Did everyone forget that after Irenicus was sent to Spellhold he continually shows up in CHARNAME's dreams every night and tortures them again? Seems like enough time without a night's rest would be a good enough reason to go after anyone...

As far as Minsc goes, his mental status is so questionable (especially since he probably took some more blows to the head when they captured him AND unhinged from the fact that he let Dynaheir be captured) that he probably thinks CHARNAME=not a complete stranger=friend.

Schneidend

Irenicus' surrender could easily be interpreted as bravado and ego on Irenicus' part. He doesn't want to be seen running out of spells to kill an endless swarm of wizards, so he gives up to save face while he still has juice left. Either way, if somebody tries to kill you and the police apprehend them, assaulting the prison they're in is the height of folly. Even assuming you have the tools necessary to breach a magical fortress, breaching it is the perfect opportunity for the guy you were afraid would escape to ESCAPE. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy if I ever heard one.

@kilroy_was_here
Hm, that's actually a good point, kilroy. I forgot about the dreams. I suppose that is a pretty good indicator that Irenicus isn't quite helpless in Spellhold. The PC would know dreams that vivid are important by now.

The BG2 opening still sucks, though. Saddling you with "canon" characters is a direct byproduct of how shoddily made and shoddily maintained it was (blasted, bloody humans). They could have drastically improved it by doing two things, balance Chateau Irenicus for just CHARNAME and Imoen, and then have Irenicus steal your souls in his lair, just before the Shadow Thieves attacked. Boom. Undeniable motivator right there.

shawne

Schneidend said:

Irenicus' surrender could easily be interpreted as bravado and ego on Irenicus' part. He doesn't want to be seen running out of spells to kill an endless swarm of wizards, so he gives up to save face while he still has juice left.

Based solely on what your PC knows at that point in time, this is someone who orchestrated multiple kidnappings along the Sword Coast of relatively successful adventurers, and whose lair gives off a very strong impression of intelligence (the experiments, the libraries, the laboratories). At the very least, you'd assume this is a calculating person who isn't likely to make such a grand mistake.

Schneidend said:

Either way, if somebody tries to kill you and the police apprehend them, assaulting the prison they're in is the height of folly. Even assuming you have the tools necessary to breach a magical fortress, breaching it is the perfect opportunity for the guy you were afraid would escape to ESCAPE. That's a self-fulfilling prophecy if I ever heard one.

But if you do nothing, you're allowing Irenicus to proceed with his plan - and your character knows he has a plan, because his "surrender" is conditional upon the arrest of Imoen. Whatever purpose he needs her for, it can't be anything that bodes well for you.

Schneidend said:

The BG2 opening still sucks, though. Saddling you with "canon" characters is a direct byproduct of how shoddily made and shoddily maintained it was (blasted, bloody humans). They could have drastically improved it by doing two things, balance Chateau Irenicus for just CHARNAME and Imoen, and then have Irenicus steal your souls in his lair, just before the Shadow Thieves attacked. Boom. Undeniable motivator right there.

That would land you right in the middle of the old Sandbox Time problem: stealing your soul can't be seen as an urgent motivator if it happens at the start of the game, because that's the point where Amn is pretty much opened up to you and you can go through a lot of content before even getting close to Spellhold. Whereas after Spellhold, you're pretty much on a rail straight to Irenicus without the ability to turn back (at least not until you leave the Underdark, but by then how much content can you still have left?).

Also, being able to steal your souls in his lair would mean that Irenicus' plan is already complete - what's to stop him from proceeding directly to Suldanellessar while you're still trying to figure out where the taverns are in Athkatla?

Schneidend

BG2 already suffers from that problem due to you leaving Imoen to rot while you amass a fortune far exceeding what you need to pay off Bodhi/Shadow Thieves. So, not only are the proposed motivations a little weak, but the situation isn't urgent regardless. Even when you get out of the Underdark, you can do whatever you want and Irenicus' tree sucking ritual will never occur until you storm Suldanessalar.

shawne

Schneidend said:

BG2 already suffers from that problem due to you leaving Imoen to rot while you amass a fortune far exceeding what you need to pay off Bodhi/Shadow Thieves. So, not only are the proposed motivations a little weak, but the situation isn't urgent regardless. Even when you get out of the Underdark, you can do whatever you want and Irenicus' tree sucking ritual will never occur until you storm Suldanessalar.

We've disagreed on that point before. Here's what I'm wondering, though: wouldn't placing the critical event even earlier in the game only exacerbate that problem? You can justify delaying Spellhold as your PC recognizing the need to build strength and get decent equipment before charging off to face a powerful enemy, but I'm not sure that rationale would work if you lose your soul at the start of the game and wait three whole chapters before doing anything about that.

kilroy_was_here

Plus, isn't losing your soul the trigger that unlocks the Slayer? How gamebreaking would that be in the early game? If you're evil already the rep hit doesn't matter. Heck, if you're evil why would you even WANT your soul back? For all you know at that point it might seal the Slayer away if you do... what evil CHARNAME wouldn't have to take their time debating that one?

shawne

@kilroy_was_here: I always rationalized that in an evil RP by saying that whatever power Irenicus has gained is rightfully mine, and I'll be damned if I'll let him keep it.

Schneidend

shawne said:

We've disagreed on that point before. Here's what I'm wondering, though: wouldn't placing the critical event even earlier in the game only exacerbate that problem? You can justify delaying Spellhold as your PC recognizing the need to build strength and get decent equipment before charging off to face a powerful enemy, but I'm not sure that rationale would work if you lose your soul at the start of the game and wait three whole chapters before doing anything about that.

Even if your lost soul is a pressing issue, being strong enough to assault the magical prison fortress is still a concern, whether you're going to rescue Imoen or free both your souls or whatever. Also, the possibility exists that you might find a balm or a cure in your travels, so you may be questing more for a way to simply draw your soul back to you rather than go look for it.

kilroy_was_here said:

Plus, isn't losing your soul the trigger that unlocks the Slayer? How gamebreaking would that be in the early game? If you're evil already the rep hit doesn't matter. Heck, if you're evil why would you even WANT your soul back? For all you know at that point it might seal the Slayer away if you do... what evil CHARNAME wouldn't have to take their time debating that one?

The rep hit definitely matters. Unless you're soloing an Inquisitor, mage or some ghastly fighter/mage multiclass, earning the persistent ire of the Cowleds when your best items are a couple wands and the Mail of the Dead +3 (or whatever that armor is that Ilyich drops is called) is practically suicide.

CHARNAME is assured that without his soul he will die eventually. Not being dead is a pretty significant motivator for Evil characters to get their soul back. Now that you know of the Slayer, you can worry about harnessing its power when you're not about to shrivel up and die. And, personally? I think the Slayer should have been a much bigger part of the game, anyway.

So, granted, my suggestions for changing the game's intro would have to run deeper than I had at first thought. I recognize that now, but I'm still not seeing a compelling reason to like the structure of BG2's plot, especially the intro phase that forces you into a canon party. I still say the plot is probably BG2's weakest aspect. I love the game to death, and it has a lot of great characterization, atmosphere, and interesting things to do like BG1 did, but I think with the plot they started poorly and thus the entire main quest suffers for various reasons as a result.