Even if your lost soul is a pressing issue, being strong enough to assault the magical prison fortress is still a concern, whether you're going to rescue Imoen or free both your souls or whatever. Also, the possibility exists that you might find a balm or a cure in your travels, so you may be questing more for a way to simply draw your soul back to you rather than go look for it.
I'd have a hard time justifying wild goose chases given the more direct option of taking a run at Irenicus himself. I mean, which scenario is more believable: pursuing your enemy (after making sure you're ready for a fight) or wandering Amn in search of a possible cure that leaves Irenicus at large? I just don't see any Bhaalspawn - Good, Neutral or Evil - taking the "live and let live" approach with the insane wizard who's prone to kidnapping and torture.
CHARNAME is assured that without his soul he will die eventually. Not being dead is a pretty significant motivator for Evil characters to get their soul back.
All the more reason to keep the length of time between losing your soul and getting it back relatively streamlined. It's the second-act climax, Luke Skywalker losing his hand and getting the I Am Your Father speech, etc. If it happens right out the gate, you'll spend the entire game being told that you're going to die, and there's really nothing more for you to lose when you go up against Irenicus at Spellhold and fail.
So, granted, my suggestions for changing the game's intro would have to run deeper than I had at first thought. I recognize that now, but I'm still not seeing a compelling reason to like the structure of BG2's plot, especially the intro phase that forces you into a canon party. I still say the plot is probably BG2's weakest aspect. I love the game to death, and it has a lot of great characterization, atmosphere, and interesting things to do like BG1 did, but I think with the plot they started poorly and thus the entire main quest suffers for various reasons as a result.
Honestly? I think you may be reading too much into the introductory sequence. There are a few ambiguous lines of dialogue that establish your PC knows Imoen, Jaheira and Minsc - even Evil PCs would've bumped into them during BG1 - but it's not like you have to take these characters with you through Athkatla. Just dump them at the Copper Coronet and find new companions.
That aside, gameplay/story segregation is a necessity of both the genre and the medium: I mean, as you pointed out, certain allowances have to be made for players who don't want to rush the endgame. So Irenicus can chill out in Suldanessellar for weeks while you fight Xvarts or whatever. As a friend once commented on Final Fantasy VI, "if I were Kefka I'd just blow their airship out of the sky before they invade my Tower, but nooo, he just sits up there watching Lifetime movies or whatever until you break down his door..."
Just one more of the many problems with the passage from BG to BG2. And just like most of the others, it could be fixed with additional optional dialogue (or with an additional mini-mission after the end of BG1 or before the start of BG2, to fix the incongruences). And as I repeated 'til exhaustion... adding stuff is not "changing content". Or else, we wouldn't have a new adventure and new characters. Duh! =_='
@shawne I guess I'm not stating how bad an idea I think attacking or sneaking into Spellhold is. The PC knows nothing about it, and there's no way to find out until you actually go there because nobody else on the mainland knows anything about it either. Without a TRULY pressing need to go there, like losing your soul, going there is a fool's gambit that may accomplish nothing except what you were afraid of happening in the first place (Irenicus' escape). And, again, I'm still convinced that all the information the PC possesses points to Irenicus being neutralized except for the dreams, which have already been established as being very important to the franchise.
@Schneidend: I understand what you're saying, I just don't agree that it fits the PC's profile, regardless of alignment/RP. I mean, going into Durlag's Tower is a fool's gambit too: you have no reason to walk through those doors, and you don't know anything about what may be waiting for you inside. And you don't have to follow Sarevok into the Thieves' Maze - you've already brought down the Iron Throne and exposed him to the Dukes, you could just let the Flaming Fist take care of him eventually.
In-game, whether you're Good, Neutral, Evil, Lawful or Chaotic, the Bhaalspawn is someone who prefers finality to ambiguity. Outside the game, it's a necessary trope to compel the player to action.
That's player knowledge, though - in-game, your character has no way of knowing for sure that there's anything in the tower worth looting. Measured against the fact that no one who went into the lower levels ever came out again, it seems like a foolish risk to take for relatively little reward. But you do it because you're an adventurer, and that's how adventurers do.
Ok, I think I figured it out. Who is the most important NPC in Spellhold? Tiax of course. He warned us in BG1 that 'the day would come when Tiax will point and click'. What if that time is BG2? Why couldn't he (through us the human player) force CHARNAME to go to Spellhold in order to help Tiax take it over. Think it's a bad idea? Don't have any idea what to expect inside? Who are you to question the will of Tiax, fool!
It is kind of mean to take over the player like that, but since Tiax rules all I suppose it's ok. All hail mighty TIAX!
That's player knowledge, though - in-game, your character has no way of knowing for sure that there's anything in the tower worth looting. Measured against the fact that no one who went into the lower levels ever came out again, it seems like a foolish risk to take for relatively little reward. But you do it because you're an adventurer, and that's how adventurers do.
No, it's not just player knowledge. Every legend agrees that Durlag hoarded his wealth there.
I think the dreams as a motivator are being underrated here. They seem wholly sufficient as a motive in and of themselves to me. You can then throw in different theories about saving Imoen or getting certainty that Irenicus is neutralized which are all potentially valid reasons, but for me they are just icing on the cake. Regardless of alignment, the PC is being shadowed by dreams (prophecies?) pushing him towards Irenicus throughout BG2.
No, it's not just player knowledge. Every legend agrees that Durlag hoarded his wealth there.
Exactly so: legends. All you have are the stories people tell in Ulgoth's Beard. There's no real proof to substantiate any of those stories, or to suggest that if Durlag's treasure was in the tower, that it hasn't already been plundered by some other adventurer.
I believe there is also a line about Irenicus in the journal from when you go through his dungeon. It's not on the quest journal page so many people may have missed it, but there is another page for general stuff. The entry was titled 'Does my captor know a way for me to gain power?' or something like that.
Irregardless of Imoen, or bad dreams, or wanting revenge, what ambitious/evil adventurer could pass up something like that? Isn't one of the first lines in the game 'Interesting... you have much untapped power'?
No, it's not just player knowledge. Every legend agrees that Durlag hoarded his wealth there.
Exactly so: legends. All you have are the stories people tell in Ulgoth's Beard. There's no real proof to substantiate any of those stories, or to suggest that if Durlag's treasure was in the tower, that it hasn't already been plundered by some other adventurer.
@Schneidend How do you know that the people of Ulgoth's Beard don't like to send adventurers to their deaths in the tower? Then have a secret way in to clean up the loot from the dead adventures.
I have never been in a P&P game where the entire group would dismiss rumors of a treasure. Even when they went to the place and found nothing, they'd always go after the nex rumor.
It's a little weird, I'll admit, but the issue here is that the beginning of BG2 poorly designed. The dungeon itself was cool, but the game's early narrative, including giving you a very polarizing initial goal, is utter shit. It apparently never occurred to Bioware that rescuing Imoen or killing Irenicus might not be very compelling reasons to go to an extremely dangerous magical prison you know nothing about.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with every part of this statement.
The early narrative did not give you a "very polarizing initial goal." Your initial goal was to escape. The subsequent goal, and driving force of the plot, was to "find Irenicus." You could choose your own motivation for doing so--to save the life of a companion, or to revenge yourself on the man who abducted you and imprisoned you for God-knows-how-long.
You could not possibly have any other reasons for chasing after Irenicus because those where the only two reasons available! If you wanted a different goal, if you wanted to, I don't know, walk back to Baldur's Gate and leave Athkatla and Irenicus behind forever, well, that's your own damned fault and a direct result of you failing to understand the fact that you were playing a game with a storyline. If you want a game where you can access all or most of the content without exploring a narrative, RPGs are the wrong genre for you.
And, and let's not forget that third possible motivation: to discover more knowledge about what it means to be Bhaalspawn. You know, that little 'inherited genetic trait' that serves as the catalyst of the entire Baldur's Gate saga and the sole definingh characteristic of Charname.
It's not shit and it wasn't polarizing. The fact that you would even utter such nonsense is beyond me.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with every part of this statement.
The early narrative did not give you a "very polarizing initial goal." Your initial goal was to escape. The subsequent goal, and driving force of the plot, was to "find Irenicus." You could choose your own motivation for doing so--to save the life of a companion, or to revenge yourself on the man who abducted you and imprisoned you for God-knows-how-long.
Up until you get that first dream with Irenicus trying to seduce you with promises of power, for my part I would be under the impression that Irenicus was handily neutralized by the magical gestapo that is the Cowled Wizards. Anybody you ask assures you that the Cowleds have a lot of power, and that nobody ever seems to come back from Spellhold. So, I nod, satisfied that one of my loyal minions sacrificed themselves to get my ex-captor permanently captured. Feud over, in a hilariously ironic fashion. But then, whoa, shit, dream time. And, being a Bhaalspawn, my dreams are just about always significant. Irenicus may not be so screwed as I thought. So, I've more or less changed my mind on this, because somebody actually pointed out a logical argument ("but what about those dreams, bro?") instead of just telling me I was wrong because they said so.
You could not possibly have any other reasons for chasing after Irenicus because those where the only two reasons available! If you wanted a different goal, if you wanted to, I don't know, walk back to Baldur's Gate and leave Athkatla and Irenicus behind forever, well, that's your own damned fault and a direct result of you failing to understand the fact that you were playing a game with a storyline. If you want a game where you can access all or most of the content without exploring a narrative, RPGs are the wrong genre for you.
My initial point was that a character who doesn't care about Imoen and considers Irenicus beaten has no real reason to go to Spellhold. I didn't say I wanted to go do whatever the hell I wanted or leave the game world. I wanted Bioware to provide an unerringly compelling reason for me to go to Spellhold, as it's perfectly reasonable for a character to just not care about Irenicus or Imoen. Hence, I suggested Irenicus steal your soul immediately, because getting your soul back so you don't die and cease to exist entirely is a pretty strong motivator for ANY character that isn't Xan.
You seem to fall back on the use of the roundaboutly suggesting people who disagree with you are stupid and shouldn't play RPGs strawman a lot. Well, that's twice now I've seen it from you, at least. And, again, my problem IS with what I consider a fault in the narrative, not that I don't want to explore a narrative. I feel the first few chapters of that narrative are poor because it was set on a weak foundation, and I wish they had gone in a different direction. As for exploring all or most of a game's content without exploring a narrative being a viable option in an RPG? Hmmm... what about Skyrim, or pretty much any Elder Scrolls game? The Fallout franchise? Borderlands?
And, and let's not forget that third possible motivation: to discover more knowledge about what it means to be Bhaalspawn. You know, that little 'inherited genetic trait' that serves as the catalyst of the entire Baldur's Gate saga and the sole definingh characteristic of Charname.
It's not shit and it wasn't polarizing. The fact that you would even utter such nonsense is beyond me.
Wouldn't I be learning this new Bhaalspawn info from the guy who "abducted and imprisoned" me "for God-knows-how-long"? Why would I trust that guy? He supposedly wants me to be more powerful for reasons he won't tell me about. Is it because he's a just a good dude? Probably not. Furthermore, even if he can unlock some more power for me, I'm likely better off acquiring it by other methods. Hell, my Glasses of Identification just let me know that my badass brother's badass sword was specially crafted to channel his Bhaalspawn powers into his melee attacks. That sounds WAY cooler than getting my ass-kicked by magic until I get stronger like some kind of Half-Celestial saiyan. So, I think I'll look into the sword thing. Gotta find me a trustworthy (or easily coerced and then assassinated) blacksmith/enchanter!
And, yes, it is shit. Though, granted, others have convinced me that it isn't quite as much shit as I previously believed. I don't like BG2's intro at all aside from the dungeon and the badassitude of the main villain, and I still don't like the initial main quest much. You haven't offered me anything that would make me consider shifting that position.
Exactly so: legends. All you have are the stories people tell in Ulgoth's Beard. There's no real proof to substantiate any of those stories, or to suggest that if Durlag's treasure was in the tower, that it hasn't already been plundered by some other adventurer.
Which holds far more promise than a deathtrap that DOESN'T have any legends about treasure-filled vaults. Spellhold might just be a bunch of bathysphere prison cells with permanent anti-magic fields chilling at the bottom of the ocean. Durlag's Tower, on the other hand, is a tower, on the mainland, which allows me to case the joint, makes it much more accessible, and doesn't put me on a limited time table.
@Schneidend How do you know that the people of Ulgoth's Beard don't like to send adventurers to their deaths in the tower? Then have a secret way in to clean up the loot from the dead adventures.
I don't, but if I'm careful, I might discover such a ploy, learn its secrets, and take over their little operation.
@Schneidend: Your error is assuming that the PC would believe that Irenicus has been permanently neutralized; even if the dreams weren't an issue, that kind of passive complacence just isn't consistent with your character, no matter how you RP him. To repeat a previous example, the path of least resistance would have had you abandoning the hunt for Sarevok after exposing him to the other Dukes, secure in the knowledge that the Flaming Fist would eventually storm the Thieves' Maze and eliminate him. Even if you're RPing an evil character who cares nothing for Imoen, your motivation for attacking Spellhold is the same as your motivation for entering the Thieves' Maze: killing your enemy with your own two hands is the only way you'll ever really be sure that the threat is over.
@shawne Sarevok isn't confined in a jail specially designed to restrain Deathbringers. Sarevok is still a threat simply because he has money to hire bounty hunters to hassle me where ever I go, has an inner circle of loyal minions on par with my own henchmen, and is himself an almost perfect killing machine.
Irenicus, on the other hand, is according to all evidence neutralized by a prison designed to hold even powerful mages, has no contact with the outside world, and doesn't have any magical items or money to use against me.
Then, of course, I take a nap on the corpses of Mencar Pebblecrusher's band of jerkasses and have a bad dream. Now, and only now, has Irenicus regained my attention - and ire!
@Schneidend: Your assumptions about Irenicus are based more on inference than evidence - how do you know he lacks the resources to escape Spellhold? How do you know the prison is capable of containing him when he's already exhibited a level of power that challenges (if not eclipses) the Cowled Wizards? At that point in the game, you simply don't know enough about him to comfortably hand him off as someone else's problem.
@shawne I disagree. I wouldn't have expected the Cowleds to send their A-game to any old disturbance, so it's natural that their first few waves got steamrolled. Let the pawns go first, and all that. Again, as far as my Lawful Evil PC is concerned, he's been taken out of the equation...up until the dreams that he knows are significant start up. So, take heart, as I don't think going after Irenicus in Spellhold is quite so stupid any more. It's just that @AHF is the one who convinced me, and not you. ;P
Boo want to know... was this thread not about the mighty ranger Minsc and trusty companion Boo? Why all this talking about CHARNAME motivation this and Irenicus that? Minsc only needs to be pointed in the direction of evil and much sword-swinging and butt-kicking will commence. What need is there for further discussion?
Or they could just... you know... have a second party based on evil alignment. If you are good then it's the canon party. If you are evil then your party consists of some of the unused evil characters that never made it into BG2 (thus we wouldn't be changing existing characters in BG2, just adding more). Off the top of my head there's Edolth and Kagain. It could be funny to have an opposite situation when discovering a body in the mephit portal room: we find Skie's body and Edolth is considerably less sympathetic about her death. If at all possible Minsc and Jaheira could still be located and recruited in the game but they may end up remembering if you killed them. It would be even more funny if Jaheira blamed you for the death of Khalid in the prior game...
I'm actually with Schneidend. On my first playthrough, where I didn't even play an evil party I figured I was in the clear when I escaped the dungeon.
Irenicus was taken and from what I heard no one ever comes back from the prison where even powerful mages are contained. My initial reaction was "well okay, glad that's over with". When I next heard my main task was to gain thousands of gold just for a chance to assault what's basically a maximum security prison, I questioned why. Just from a pragmatic view, Irenicus was seemingly dealth with, and had no way to directly assail me, I was free with most of my friends intact, and why would I want to go after someone who I witnessed first hand was that powerful. Seems very stupid to me.
No, it's not just player knowledge. Every legend agrees that Durlag hoarded his wealth there.
Exactly so: legends. All you have are the stories people tell in Ulgoth's Beard. There's no real proof to substantiate any of those stories, or to suggest that if Durlag's treasure was in the tower, that it hasn't already been plundered by some other adventurer.
I suspect you haven't played much D&D if you think that rumors of treasure aren't enough motivation to check something out. (\(\(o,,,o)/)/)
I have never been in a P&P game where the entire group would dismiss rumors of a treasure. Even when they went to the place and found nothing, they'd always go after the nex rumor.
I've been playing RPGs for over two decades now... no group I've ever been in has EVER dismissed a rumor or legend... it's truth until proven otherwise.
A rumor says a huge red dragon usually attacks a region? Be sure they'll have protection from fire spells ready. A legend says a curse turned all elves in an ancient fortress into terrible undead? They'll make sure they have enough protection from negative plane, sunbursts, etc...
Most groups are also intelligent enough to know a rumor/legend may be wrong...
Maybe it's a green dragon and not red? Maybe it's demons and not undead? They'll try to be prepared for surprises.
And there are those times they go to great lengths of preparation and exploration to discover some other adventurer has been there and cleaned the place before them... or even that the place does not even exist.
What do they do? Go for the next rumor/legend. Look for people trying to hire adventures. In some cases even sell their services as mercenaries to the crown or some noble.
But something I've never seen is a group that automatically dismisses a rumor or legend before investigating.
Comments
That aside, gameplay/story segregation is a necessity of both the genre and the medium: I mean, as you pointed out, certain allowances have to be made for players who don't want to rush the endgame. So Irenicus can chill out in Suldanessellar for weeks while you fight Xvarts or whatever. As a friend once commented on Final Fantasy VI, "if I were Kefka I'd just blow their airship out of the sky before they invade my Tower, but nooo, he just sits up there watching Lifetime movies or whatever until you break down his door..."
And just like most of the others, it could be fixed with additional optional dialogue (or with an additional mini-mission after the end of BG1 or before the start of BG2, to fix the incongruences).
And as I repeated 'til exhaustion... adding stuff is not "changing content". Or else, we wouldn't have a new adventure and new characters. Duh! =_='
I guess I'm not stating how bad an idea I think attacking or sneaking into Spellhold is. The PC knows nothing about it, and there's no way to find out until you actually go there because nobody else on the mainland knows anything about it either. Without a TRULY pressing need to go there, like losing your soul, going there is a fool's gambit that may accomplish nothing except what you were afraid of happening in the first place (Irenicus' escape). And, again, I'm still convinced that all the information the PC possesses points to Irenicus being neutralized except for the dreams, which have already been established as being very important to the franchise.
In-game, whether you're Good, Neutral, Evil, Lawful or Chaotic, the Bhaalspawn is someone who prefers finality to ambiguity. Outside the game, it's a necessary trope to compel the player to action.
It is kind of mean to take over the player like that, but since Tiax rules all I suppose it's ok. All hail mighty TIAX!
Going into Durlag's tower is very much like a low grade slasher film plot. "I hear there's some pretty cool stuff in the tower!"
"isnt it haunted? No one has returned from there alive!"
"What are you. A man or a mouse? It'll be fun!"
Irregardless of Imoen, or bad dreams, or wanting revenge, what ambitious/evil adventurer could pass up something like that? Isn't one of the first lines in the game 'Interesting... you have much untapped power'?
The early narrative did not give you a "very polarizing initial goal." Your initial goal was to escape. The subsequent goal, and driving force of the plot, was to "find Irenicus." You could choose your own motivation for doing so--to save the life of a companion, or to revenge yourself on the man who abducted you and imprisoned you for God-knows-how-long.
You could not possibly have any other reasons for chasing after Irenicus because those where the only two reasons available! If you wanted a different goal, if you wanted to, I don't know, walk back to Baldur's Gate and leave Athkatla and Irenicus behind forever, well, that's your own damned fault and a direct result of you failing to understand the fact that you were playing a game with a storyline. If you want a game where you can access all or most of the content without exploring a narrative, RPGs are the wrong genre for you.
And, and let's not forget that third possible motivation: to discover more knowledge about what it means to be Bhaalspawn. You know, that little 'inherited genetic trait' that serves as the catalyst of the entire Baldur's Gate saga and the sole definingh characteristic of Charname.
It's not shit and it wasn't polarizing. The fact that you would even utter such nonsense is beyond me.
You seem to fall back on the use of the roundaboutly suggesting people who disagree with you are stupid and shouldn't play RPGs strawman a lot. Well, that's twice now I've seen it from you, at least. And, again, my problem IS with what I consider a fault in the narrative, not that I don't want to explore a narrative. I feel the first few chapters of that narrative are poor because it was set on a weak foundation, and I wish they had gone in a different direction. As for exploring all or most of a game's content without exploring a narrative being a viable option in an RPG? Hmmm... what about Skyrim, or pretty much any Elder Scrolls game? The Fallout franchise? Borderlands? Wouldn't I be learning this new Bhaalspawn info from the guy who "abducted and imprisoned" me "for God-knows-how-long"? Why would I trust that guy? He supposedly wants me to be more powerful for reasons he won't tell me about. Is it because he's a just a good dude? Probably not. Furthermore, even if he can unlock some more power for me, I'm likely better off acquiring it by other methods. Hell, my Glasses of Identification just let me know that my badass brother's badass sword was specially crafted to channel his Bhaalspawn powers into his melee attacks. That sounds WAY cooler than getting my ass-kicked by magic until I get stronger like some kind of Half-Celestial saiyan. So, I think I'll look into the sword thing. Gotta find me a trustworthy (or easily coerced and then assassinated) blacksmith/enchanter!
And, yes, it is shit. Though, granted, others have convinced me that it isn't quite as much shit as I previously believed. I don't like BG2's intro at all aside from the dungeon and the badassitude of the main villain, and I still don't like the initial main quest much. You haven't offered me anything that would make me consider shifting that position.
Sarevok isn't confined in a jail specially designed to restrain Deathbringers. Sarevok is still a threat simply because he has money to hire bounty hunters to hassle me where ever I go, has an inner circle of loyal minions on par with my own henchmen, and is himself an almost perfect killing machine.
Irenicus, on the other hand, is according to all evidence neutralized by a prison designed to hold even powerful mages, has no contact with the outside world, and doesn't have any magical items or money to use against me.
Then, of course, I take a nap on the corpses of Mencar Pebblecrusher's band of jerkasses and have a bad dream. Now, and only now, has Irenicus regained my attention - and ire!
I disagree. I wouldn't have expected the Cowleds to send their A-game to any old disturbance, so it's natural that their first few waves got steamrolled. Let the pawns go first, and all that. Again, as far as my Lawful Evil PC is concerned, he's been taken out of the equation...up until the dreams that he knows are significant start up. So, take heart, as I don't think going after Irenicus in Spellhold is quite so stupid any more. It's just that @AHF is the one who convinced me, and not you. ;P
What Boo?
*squeak... squeak?*
Boo want to know... was this thread not about the mighty ranger Minsc and trusty companion Boo? Why all this talking about CHARNAME motivation this and Irenicus that? Minsc only needs to be pointed in the direction of evil and much sword-swinging and butt-kicking will commence. What need is there for further discussion?
:P
Irenicus was taken and from what I heard no one ever comes back from the prison where even powerful mages are contained. My initial reaction was "well okay, glad that's over with". When I next heard my main task was to gain thousands of gold just for a chance to assault what's basically a maximum security prison, I questioned why. Just from a pragmatic view, Irenicus was seemingly dealth with, and had no way to directly assail me, I was free with most of my friends intact, and why would I want to go after someone who I witnessed first hand was that powerful. Seems very stupid to me.
A rumor says a huge red dragon usually attacks a region? Be sure they'll have protection from fire spells ready. A legend says a curse turned all elves in an ancient fortress into terrible undead? They'll make sure they have enough protection from negative plane, sunbursts, etc...
Most groups are also intelligent enough to know a rumor/legend may be wrong...
Maybe it's a green dragon and not red? Maybe it's demons and not undead? They'll try to be prepared for surprises.
And there are those times they go to great lengths of preparation and exploration to discover some other adventurer has been there and cleaned the place before them... or even that the place does not even exist.
What do they do? Go for the next rumor/legend. Look for people trying to hire adventures. In some cases even sell their services as mercenaries to the crown or some noble.
But something I've never seen is a group that automatically dismisses a rumor or legend before investigating.