Clerics are the worst class in the game at high levels. Deva and Energy Blades are their only HLAs that aren't well below average, and even they are only okay compared to what other classes get.
Related: the rule that you should never dual-class away from a spellcasting class is dumb. C>M is straight up better than C/M; C>T and C>F are better than C/T, F/C, and F>C because of kit bonuses. The only real strike against dualing away from clerics is you can't get shorty saves.
Turn Undead to pop Lich's though is too entertaining to NOT do.
The Wizard Slayer even without the range modifications was worth using; now it can contend to be a shortbow/Longbow spelldisrupter with little to no consequences.
Feeblemind is the most underrated mage spell. It is capable of completely trivializing huge swaths of the game. . Enchanters are the best specialist mages in the game. The -2 save on Feeblemind and Chaos is huge. The lost spells are easily replaced except for Sequencer/Trigger.
I never thought much of Xan until it worked out he fit in a few runs I did, esp, with the edition of his extended banters mod. Not my usual choice of a specialist mage(if I did arcane anymore) but he has got some serious power with controlling ppl and critters. I especially liked his power with a casting of emotion.
I just do the back door, kill the ogre mage and crew for the drops and quest completion and run one character with my thief straight to do the ancient armor/ghost quest then CTRL-J to the exit.
That was the one that I WAS talking about. Wait, is there another?
You can also enter from Firewine Bridge or from downstairs inside the two-storey building in Gullykin where you find the cleric. The door to the latter is hidden. I think that you get told about it if you ask about in that building. I'm not sure about that. It's a LONG time since I've talked to them, since I know what to do to enter.
The third entrance used to be from downstairs inside a halfling's house (also hidden) which was the easiest way as you could buff up, beat the mage and exit if that was what you wanted to do prior to EE changing things.
I just do the back door, kill the ogre mage and crew for the drops and quest completion and run one character with my thief straight to do the ancient armor/ghost quest then CTRL-J to the exit.
That was the one that I WAS talking about. Wait, is there another?
You can also enter from Firewine Bridge or from downstairs inside the two-storey building in Gullykin where you find the cleric. The door to the latter is hidden. I think that you get told about it if you ask about in that building. I'm not sure about that. It's a LONG time since I've talked to them, since I know what to do to enter.
The third entrance used to be from downstairs inside a halfling's house (also hidden) which was the easiest way as you could buff up, beat the mage and exit if that was what you wanted to do prior to EE changing things.
You can still do that in EE, it's a mod that changes it.
You can still do that in EE, it's a mod that changes it.
Can confirm. I play BGEE on the iPad, which means no mods, and I never do Firewine Ruins because it's so annoying. I always go in through Jenkal's, kill the Ogre Mage, and then leave.
I never thought much of Xan until it worked out he fit in a few runs I did, esp, with the edition of his extended banters mod. Not my usual choice of a specialist mage(if I did arcane anymore) but he has got some serious power with controlling ppl and critters. I especially liked his power with a casting of emotion.
On my to-do list is a duo run with a Charname enchanter and Xan where both characters only memorize Enchantment spells.
I never thought much of Xan until it worked out he fit in a few runs I did, esp, with the edition of his extended banters mod. Not my usual choice of a specialist mage(if I did arcane anymore) but he has got some serious power with controlling ppl and critters. I especially liked his power with a casting of emotion.
On my to-do list is a duo run with a Charname enchanter and Xan where both characters only memorize Enchantment spells.
@somesort I liked the combo of Xan with a Gypsy Bard CHARNAME. 'Talk about charming the pants off ppl' , jeeze. Enemies had a hard time dealing with that combo.
One of the great tragedies of gaming history is that Jade Empire was never given a sequel and KOTOR became an MMO.
To me it's Vampire the masquerade: Bloodlines and Kotor 2 rushed development..Both games didn't deserve to be released like that. It's a painful reminder of what could have been, even if restoration patches cleaned things up considerably^^
And as much as I like it, the last part of Bloodlines is just bad. Most of the reactivity and colorful dialogue you have earlier in the game is replaced with dull action.
If you ever get around to trying it, you'd do yourself a disservice to not check out the Closed Fist "alignment". More than any other Bioware game they made "reasonably evil" and not chaotic stupid a viable option.
Ps: Torment took more creative risks and initiatives than most fantasy games from nowadays (that includes EE's and SoD).
I'm inclined to agree. That may be why I find myself way more drawn to Pillars of Eternity, which I consider a spiritual successor in terms of writing, than BG:EE these days. Not every game needs to be high art, but for an RPG, the writing is essential.
Ps: Torment took more creative risks and initiatives than most fantasy games from nowadays (that includes EE's and SoD).
Wasn't Torment specifically DESIGNED to go against the trends? At least that's what I remember from some interview I read a long time ago. Player death is at worst a mild inconvenience and actually required to finish the game. It's a fantasy setting, but there's like 3 swords total. Instead of killing rats, rats gang up and kill you. And when you enter a zone full of undead, then talk to them and solve their quests instead of fighting.
Armour, reach, damage and shields are all wrong in D&D,
Armour is better described as providing damage resistance.
Shields block WAY more than 10% (if +2 to AC) of the attacks, when sparring, this comes to about 30% more for bucklers than two handed weapons and they give an opportunity to retaliate against the attacker.
Reach comes in smaller increments than 150cm, even a 5cm difference can make or break a fight
Damage might be done best by giving slashing weapons the best damage but worst damage reduction factor, piercing next best damage but more hindered by shields, blunt not that far behind in damage but best damage reduction factor in exchange for shortest reach
Probably not that unpopular around here, given the number of SCS and no-reload players, but I'd wager wildly unpopular among the player base at large:
1. The most powerful ability in the game is not Time Stop or Improved Alacrity or Spike Trap or Greater Whirlwind. It's the ability to use consumables. (The Wizard Slayer's greatest drawback is not his inability to wear gloves or rings, it's the dramatic reduction in the number of consumables he can use.)
2. The most powerful item in the game is not Robe of Vecna or Cloak of Reflection or Carsomyr or Flail of Ages, it's Helm of Vhailor for its ability to convert items with X uses into items with X uses per day. (The damage boost from the clone is nice, too.)
3a. (not unpopular) The vast majority of the difficulty in the game comes from the player's lack of a specialized knowledge base. New players need to learn by trial and error things like "Basilisks will kill you instantly, and also they're located here. Demiliches cast imprisonment, and these are the ways you protect against it. Cloak of Non-Detection doesn't protect against True Sight if you're using Invisibility, but it does if you're using Hide in Shadows."
3b. (unpopular again) Once that specialized knowledge base is acquired, the game's difficulty is inversely proportional to the rate at which you're using consumable items.
Probably not that unpopular around here, given the number of SCS and no-reload players, but I'd wager wildly unpopular among the player base at large:
1. The most powerful ability in the game is not Time Stop or Improved Alacrity or Spike Trap or Greater Whirlwind. It's the ability to use consumables. (The Wizard Slayer's greatest drawback is not his inability to wear gloves or rings, it's the dramatic reduction in the number of consumables he can use.)
I guess, although I don't think most people would call that an ability, as such. It's more like a disability that causes Wizard Slayers to fail even harder at life.
2. The most powerful item in the game is not Robe of Vecna or Cloak of Reflection or Carsomyr or Flail of Ages, it's Helm of Vhailor for its ability to convert items with X uses into items with X uses per day. (The damage boost from the clone is nice, too.)
I wouldn't know, since I kind of refuse to use that item on account of it being too cheesy. Still, I'd make the case for Boots of Speed instead, since it gives you breathing room to do whatever you want, including use other consumables.
3a. (not unpopular) The vast majority of the difficulty in the game comes from the player's lack of a specialized knowledge base. New players need to learn by trial and error things like "Basilisks will kill you instantly, and also they're located here. Demiliches cast imprisonment, and these are the ways you protect against it. Cloak of Non-Detection doesn't protect against True Sight if you're using Invisibility, but it does if you're using Hide in Shadows."
3b. (unpopular again) Once that specialized knowledge base is acquired, the game's difficulty is inversely proportional to the rate at which you're using consumable items.
I'd agree with all of this, actually. Most encounters I don't bother with consumables because they're not hard enough. When I actually do break them all out, there's very little that can't be curbstomped.
I actually had Vhailor's Helm on a F>C - it's a pretty cool combination if you like abusing Animate Dead
On the other end of the spectrum, Vhailor's Helm + Rod of Resurrection eliminates like 60% of the need for a Cleric, Shield of Harmony takes care of 36%, and Daystar chips in another 2%.
I don't agree with SomeSort's calculations, not least because Chaotic Commands and Remove Paralysis are so damn useful. As for other items that cut into their job, though, there's also the Helm of Brilliance (much faster casting of Sunray than Daystar), plus Ring of Regeneration/Ring of Gaxx.
I don't agree with SomeSort's calculations, not least because Chaotic Commands and Remove Paralysis are so damn useful. As for other items that cut into their job, though, there's also the Helm of Brilliance (much faster casting of Sunray than Daystar), plus Ring of Regeneration/Ring of Gaxx.
Chaotic Commands is amazing, the single biggest perk of the Cleric class, IMO. (Well, that and the super-cheap, super-good Animate Dead. And the turn undead.) But I did mention Shield of Harmony, which is mostly an equippable Chaotic Commands for shield-wielders. Both cover Charm/Confusion/Domination, and while Shield of Harmony lacks Chaotic Commands' handy maze immunity and less-handy sleep immunity, it adds a handy hold immunity (which will help obviate the need for Remove Paralysis, too).
Granted, you only get one Shield of Harmony in the game. (Well, two if you're evil.) But with solid tactics, one is all you need.
(Not really hating on Clerics. They're a fun class, it's just that they're the class that can be most easily replaced by consumable / equippable items.)
*raises hand* Chaotic Commands also confers immunity to Illithid's Mind Blasts, which I think nothing else in the game can do. Maybe Arvoreen's sword or the Greenstone Amulet, for stun immunity and general everything-immunity? Heck, I don't think that the 2h sword in Spellhold that's supposed to protect against all forms of psionics blocks that effect.
Ugh, I have to post another unpopular opinion now, since I'm posting in this thread. Hm. Lessee. Flaws in characters, like Keldorn being less than objective in certain of his judgments, are what make the characters actually believable and interesting, and those flaws should stay there instead of being "fixed."
Ugh, I have to post another unpopular opinion now, since I'm posting in this thread. Hm. Lessee. Flaws in characters, like Keldorn being less than objective in certain of his judgments, are what make the characters actually believable and interesting, and those flaws should stay there instead of being "fixed."
There are an awful lot of "fixes" that IMO don't need fixing and which annoy me when they are "fixed". I think that the "fixers" ought to give the players the options as to which fixes that they want.
Changing the spells that stop the demonknight from teleporting away is a case in point, but there are a lot of them.
Sometimes I wonder if people remember that Clerics have other spells than just party buffs.
Shield of Harmony makes Chaotic Commands obsolete? Great, more slots for Flame Strike, Righteous Magic and Greater Command.
Oh right. I forgot that spell slots don't matter because we are resting between every encounter.
Replaceable doesn't necessarily mean obsolete. It just means it's easier to do a run-through without any Clerics(/Druids) than it is to do a run-through without any mages, without any thieves, or without any fighters.
Let's look at the three spells you mentioned, for instance. Flame Strike? Great spell. Easily replaced by a mage's Flame Arrow, which casts faster (3 vs. 8, 0 with Robe of Vecna), deals comparable damage (FS: 90 without save, 45 with save. FA: 70 without save, 42 with save), takes up a lower level spell slot (3 vs. 5), and has a piercing element to help it out against fire-resistant foes. Or, you know, if you really really want a Flame Strike you can give a Thief with UAI some Wands of the Heavens and have him cast them. (Monks used to be able to use them, too, though I think that's been patched in EE.)
Righteous Magic turns your cleric into a better fighter. You know a great replacement for that? An actual fighter, who is a better fighter than a Cleric with Righteous Magic. (Alternately, replace the Cleric with a mage and have the mage cast Improved Haste on a fighter, doubling his damage output and doing more to boost your team's offensive effectiveness than a Righteous Magic'd Cleric would have.)
Greater Command is a level 5 spell with a very small radius that causes enemies that fail a save vs. spell to fall asleep. Emotion: Hopelessness is a level 4 spell with a very large radius that causes enemies that fail a save vs. spell to fall asleep, and also has the secondary effect of making the caster immune to fear and panic. (It also lasts a couple rounds longer.)
Clerics are fun classes that do a lot of useful things. Chaotic Commands can be cast on characters that can't use shields, for instance, or on an entire party at once. Having healing that's not tied to your gold supply can save you a lot of money in the long run. They make solid secondary tanks to keep heat off your squishier mages and thieves. If you have a party of five and you add a cleric, that party is better as a result.
It's just that they don't do very many useful things that you couldn't just as easily do with other classes, instead, if it came down to it. When forced to make tough choices, they're the easiest class to do without.
Korgan is better and more interesting than Kagain.
People who think Korgan is a one-note caricature don't realize that he's only acting the way he thinks he's supposed to act, something that becomes obvious if you bring along Mazzy or if your female charname is receptive to his advances.
Like Anomen, he's mostly bluster, exaggerating his personality and assuming no one will call him on it. Unlike Anomen, he's deep enough that when he *does* get called on it, he doesn't throw a tantrum or slip into needy-emo mode. Instead, that's just when things start getting interesting. (Also unlike Anomen: he doesn't need to lie about his exploits because he's a genuine badass.)
Meanwhile, if you want to talk about one-note caricatures, try to describe Kagain without the words "greedy dwarf".
I wonder if most of the Kagain nostalgia is just pining for his 20 constitution and innate regen. But that mattered a lot more in BG1 when healing pots were smaller, cleric spells were scarcer, and adventure mostly consisted of very small crawls with lots of traveling in between, (as opposed to BG2 which is longer crawls with less travel between).
(Interestingly, despite the strong trend towards BG2 NPCs being much better statistically than their BG1 peers, including giving substantial stat boosts to Jahiera, Minsc, Viconia, and Edwin, Kagain's roll of 82 is higher than Korgan's roll of 80, though it breaks down as a 4-point disadvantage in the "fighting stats" and a 6-point advantage in the "talking stats".)
Comments
The Wizard Slayer even without the range modifications was worth using; now it can contend to be a shortbow/Longbow spelldisrupter with little to no consequences.
The third entrance used to be from downstairs inside a halfling's house (also hidden) which was the easiest way as you could buff up, beat the mage and exit if that was what you wanted to do prior to EE changing things.
And as much as I like it, the last part of Bloodlines is just bad. Most of the reactivity and colorful dialogue you have earlier in the game is replaced with dull action.
Never did try Jade Empire.
Armour is better described as providing damage resistance.
Shields block WAY more than 10% (if +2 to AC) of the attacks, when sparring, this comes to about 30% more for bucklers than two handed weapons and they give an opportunity to retaliate against the attacker.
Reach comes in smaller increments than 150cm, even a 5cm difference can make or break a fight
Damage might be done best by giving slashing weapons the best damage but worst damage reduction factor, piercing next best damage but more hindered by shields, blunt not that far behind in damage but best damage reduction factor in exchange for shortest reach
1. The most powerful ability in the game is not Time Stop or Improved Alacrity or Spike Trap or Greater Whirlwind. It's the ability to use consumables. (The Wizard Slayer's greatest drawback is not his inability to wear gloves or rings, it's the dramatic reduction in the number of consumables he can use.)
2. The most powerful item in the game is not Robe of Vecna or Cloak of Reflection or Carsomyr or Flail of Ages, it's Helm of Vhailor for its ability to convert items with X uses into items with X uses per day. (The damage boost from the clone is nice, too.)
3a. (not unpopular) The vast majority of the difficulty in the game comes from the player's lack of a specialized knowledge base. New players need to learn by trial and error things like "Basilisks will kill you instantly, and also they're located here. Demiliches cast imprisonment, and these are the ways you protect against it. Cloak of Non-Detection doesn't protect against True Sight if you're using Invisibility, but it does if you're using Hide in Shadows."
3b. (unpopular again) Once that specialized knowledge base is acquired, the game's difficulty is inversely proportional to the rate at which you're using consumable items.
Granted, you only get one Shield of Harmony in the game. (Well, two if you're evil.) But with solid tactics, one is all you need.
(Not really hating on Clerics. They're a fun class, it's just that they're the class that can be most easily replaced by consumable / equippable items.)
Ugh, I have to post another unpopular opinion now, since I'm posting in this thread. Hm. Lessee.
Flaws in characters, like Keldorn being less than objective in certain of his judgments, are what make the characters actually believable and interesting, and those flaws should stay there instead of being "fixed."
Shield of Harmony makes Chaotic Commands obsolete? Great, more slots for Flame Strike, Righteous Magic and Greater Command.
Oh right. I forgot that spell slots don't matter because we are resting between every encounter.
I think that the "fixers" ought to give the players the options as to which fixes that they want.
Changing the spells that stop the demonknight from teleporting away is a case in point, but there are a lot of them.
Let's look at the three spells you mentioned, for instance. Flame Strike? Great spell. Easily replaced by a mage's Flame Arrow, which casts faster (3 vs. 8, 0 with Robe of Vecna), deals comparable damage (FS: 90 without save, 45 with save. FA: 70 without save, 42 with save), takes up a lower level spell slot (3 vs. 5), and has a piercing element to help it out against fire-resistant foes. Or, you know, if you really really want a Flame Strike you can give a Thief with UAI some Wands of the Heavens and have him cast them. (Monks used to be able to use them, too, though I think that's been patched in EE.)
Righteous Magic turns your cleric into a better fighter. You know a great replacement for that? An actual fighter, who is a better fighter than a Cleric with Righteous Magic. (Alternately, replace the Cleric with a mage and have the mage cast Improved Haste on a fighter, doubling his damage output and doing more to boost your team's offensive effectiveness than a Righteous Magic'd Cleric would have.)
Greater Command is a level 5 spell with a very small radius that causes enemies that fail a save vs. spell to fall asleep. Emotion: Hopelessness is a level 4 spell with a very large radius that causes enemies that fail a save vs. spell to fall asleep, and also has the secondary effect of making the caster immune to fear and panic. (It also lasts a couple rounds longer.)
Clerics are fun classes that do a lot of useful things. Chaotic Commands can be cast on characters that can't use shields, for instance, or on an entire party at once. Having healing that's not tied to your gold supply can save you a lot of money in the long run. They make solid secondary tanks to keep heat off your squishier mages and thieves. If you have a party of five and you add a cleric, that party is better as a result.
It's just that they don't do very many useful things that you couldn't just as easily do with other classes, instead, if it came down to it. When forced to make tough choices, they're the easiest class to do without.
People who think Korgan is a one-note caricature don't realize that he's only acting the way he thinks he's supposed to act, something that becomes obvious if you bring along Mazzy or if your female charname is receptive to his advances.
Like Anomen, he's mostly bluster, exaggerating his personality and assuming no one will call him on it. Unlike Anomen, he's deep enough that when he *does* get called on it, he doesn't throw a tantrum or slip into needy-emo mode. Instead, that's just when things start getting interesting. (Also unlike Anomen: he doesn't need to lie about his exploits because he's a genuine badass.)
Meanwhile, if you want to talk about one-note caricatures, try to describe Kagain without the words "greedy dwarf".
I wonder if most of the Kagain nostalgia is just pining for his 20 constitution and innate regen. But that mattered a lot more in BG1 when healing pots were smaller, cleric spells were scarcer, and adventure mostly consisted of very small crawls with lots of traveling in between, (as opposed to BG2 which is longer crawls with less travel between).
(Interestingly, despite the strong trend towards BG2 NPCs being much better statistically than their BG1 peers, including giving substantial stat boosts to Jahiera, Minsc, Viconia, and Edwin, Kagain's roll of 82 is higher than Korgan's roll of 80, though it breaks down as a 4-point disadvantage in the "fighting stats" and a 6-point advantage in the "talking stats".)
"Korgan is better and more interesting than Kagain."
That's unpopular opinion, surely not?
Korgan is awesome, I usually take him at least for some time whereas Kagain I forget exists.
Surprised.