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Can a 3.5 Faerun D&D Cleric draw its domains from a Pantheon as opposed to a singular deity?

VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,427
As in the title, could a Cleric choose its domains from a pantheon? Such as a Drow Cleric of the Dark Seldarine choosing say the Undeath Domain from Kiaransalee and the Trickery Domain from Vhaeraun?

Comments

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    That kind of depends on your DM. If he/she allows it then fine.

    Personally I would think not for the simple reason that the Deity that you worship give you whatever power/benefit you get. If the domain is not theirs, they don't have the power/perk for you to get. It's also the reason why you have to pick A Deity and stick with the domains that they offer.

    And keep in mind that all of the Faerun Deities are one single pantheon.

    But if you are playing something like NWN2 or whatever, the sky's the limit. Play however you want.

    Vallmyr
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    3.5e allows for clerics following an ideal rather than a specific deity. So you could very well be a cleric who worships the entire pantheon of X civilization, whose ideal is Y and manifests as the Z and W domains.

    Forgotten Realms books do sometimes introduce characters that invoke multiple deities; a character will pray to Tymora for luck, Tempus for glory in battle, and then Helm for justice when someone steals your horse.

    Priests tend to follow the tenets of a specific church (and churches always stick to just one deity), but there's no reason a hedge priest couldn't worship the lot of them, even Mask or Cyric.

    "Every god has their use", such a priest might say. "You don't necessarily agree with what they do on a daily basis, but a man who doesn't throw a silver penny to the Lord of Shadows every so often can expect to have the tithe taken out of their pocket - with interest."

    Vallmyrelminster
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,611
    LOL - this topic is making me think of the current Godsmoot in OotS - where the gods are thinking of "destroying the world".

    http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0997.html

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,415
    Vallmyr said:

    As in the title, could a Cleric choose its domains from a pantheon? Such as a Drow Cleric of the Dark Seldarine choosing say the Undeath Domain from Kiaransalee and the Trickery Domain from Vhaeraun?

    This was permissible in Greyhawk or Eberron, but not in the Forgotten Realms. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting says that all clerics (and druids, rangers, and paladins) must have a patron deity (and only one patron deity).
    Faerunian clerics function as described in the Player's Handbook, except that no clerics serve just a cause, philosophy, or abstract source of divine power. The Torilian deities are very real, and events in recent history have forced these divine beings to pay a great deal of attention to their mortal followers.

    All clerics in Faerun serve a patron deity. (In fact, most people in Faerun choose a deity as their patron.) It is simply impossible for a person to gain divine powers (such as divine spells) without one. You may not have more than one patron deity at a time, although it is possible to change your patron deity if you have a change of heart.
    Of course, if your DM says you can, then you can. :smile:

    VallmyrKamigoroshi
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    From a role playing perspective, think of it this way. Each and every Deity has their own agenda. Normally, deities of like alignment will have similar agendas, but not always. "If" your cleric is worshiping more than one Deity (always assuming that your DM allows that), what happens when the priorities conflict? And to see it another way, a Deity (or it's designated servant) is basically rewarding clerics for their unswerving devotion to their cause. If that devotion is somewhat promiscuous, why would a Deity reward that (lack of) loyalty?

    Remember that just because the rules books say you get 'X-power' for worshiping a given deity or having a given class, it is still at the suffrage of the deity/power that grants that. If they disagree with your actions or your representation of their interests in the mortal realm, they can/should remove or restrict those powers. Granted, not every Deity is going to be that hands on with lower level beings, but even the Demi-god who handles the 'Day to day' will act in accord with his/her lord and master and will roll down edicts 'From on high'.

    I've often felt that this is a problem with 2E/3E Paladins, particularly when the abominations of '1 level of Paladin and 19 levels of Sorcerer' or Paladin/Blackguard combinations came to be (primarily in video games). "In my personal and subjective view", being a Paladin (or a cleric or druid or monk or to a lesser degree Rangers is a vocation, not a job. It's a calling. You don't simply 'dip into paladinhood'. If you do, then your faith (that which gives you the bonus to saving throws among other things) isn't very strong and therefore shouldn't provide anywhere near as much bonus. And if you forswear your vows, then your faith totally falters and you should not continue to get any bonus (and definitely not Divine spells) from your 'former' profession. But that's a failing of the video game mechanics, and is merely my way of seeing things.

    Stepping off of the soap box now.... Carry on.

    BelgarathMTH
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    edited August 2015
    I think the trend in 3e+ (including Pathfinder, 4e, and 5e) is to view classes as manifestations of training, rather than outlook.

    So you might have one level in Paladin and five levels in Sorcerer, not because you lack the faith of most paladins but because you spent five levels learning magic with which to combat the enemies of your order. The Paladin's Code of Conduct is the thing that represents their outlook; if you break your code of conduct, you lose the benefits of your paladin training.

    It's somewhat different from 2e, where a character who took the class "Paladin" was declaring to the world, "I am a paladin, a paladin is what I am." Later editions make an effort to expand the concept of your character beyond just your class (which is ultimately a good thing, even if mechanically it dismantles something that previous editions very clearly did on purpose).

    I had forgotten about the Forgotten Realms rules about patron deities. But one thing you could do, in that case, is have your character worship Mystra, devoting yourself to the Weave. Mystra is one of those gods who doesn't mind the odd invocation of other deities; her primary tenet is "Do magic, and spread the glory of magic to the world." You can do that without limiting your activities to Mystra's benefit.

    You could do something similar with the Shadow Weave and Shar, if your character's tending more toward darker things. This doesn't let you mix and match domains, though, unless your DM is willing to allow it as an exception.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Dee said:

    So you might have one level in Paladin and five levels in Sorcerer, not because you lack the faith of most paladins but because you spent five levels learning magic with which to combat the enemies of your order. The Paladin's Code of Conduct is the thing that represents their outlook; if you break your code of conduct, you lose the benefits of your paladin training.

    I see (and agree with) this philosophy and point of view. And whole heartedly agree that this should be a valid way to go about it. It is absolutely in keeping with my vision of Paladinhood in that they are Paladins 1st, but simply approach how they execute their duties as differently than martial. So long as they hold their Paladin's Code of Conduct as primary and it is a calling, not a job/skill set, I'm fine with all manner and varieties of Paladinhood.

    Sadly, most players that I encounter (admittedly a significant minority of the total number of players) see it as "Take 1 level and you get +5 to all saving throws... Cool." and then they never EVER 'Role play' their devotion to their Deity. Therein lies where I have a problem.

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,415

    I've often felt that this is a problem with 2E/3E Paladins, particularly when the abominations of '1 level of Paladin and 19 levels of Sorcerer' or Paladin/Blackguard combinations came to be (primarily in video games). "In my personal and subjective view", being a Paladin (or a cleric or druid or monk or to a lesser degree Rangers is a vocation, not a job. It's a calling. You don't simply 'dip into paladinhood'. If you do, then your faith (that which gives you the bonus to saving throws among other things) isn't very strong and therefore shouldn't provide anywhere near as much bonus. And if you forswear your vows, then your faith totally falters and you should not continue to get any bonus (and definitely not Divine spells) from your 'former' profession. But that's a failing of the video game mechanics, and is merely my way of seeing things.

    I agree on the "one level dip", but multi-classed paladins can certainly work for role-playing reasons. It just depends on the deity.

    A Paladin of Mystara/Sorcerer (or Wizard) would actually be really appropriate. Why wouldn't a holy warrior of the goddess of the Weave learn to cast arcane spells?

    Why not a Paladin of Helm/Fighter? Would Helm deny a devoted but battle-experienced warrior entry to the ranks of his paladins, or not let one of his paladins hone her warrior skills?

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,415
    edited August 2015
    Vallmyr said:

    As in the title, could a Cleric choose its domains from a pantheon? Such as a Drow Cleric of the Dark Seldarine choosing say the Undeath Domain from Kiaransalee and the Trickery Domain from Vhaeraun?

    One thing you could do is ask to be able to choose domains from different aspects of the same god, like Talos/Gruumsh or Chuantea/Yondalla.

    You could create a half-orc cleric who venerates Gruumsh as his primary aspect but also as Talos. Perhaps his/her human parent worshipped Talos while the orc parent worshiped Gruumsh.

    EDIT: Another idea that could fit into the Realms - a cleric primarily devoted to a demi-god who serves a greater god. Ask your DM to allow choosing one domain from the demi-god's portfolio and one from the greater god their patron serves. Demi-gods are primarily channels for the greater god's divine power, so this makes some sense. Not every DM would go for it, of course. If I were your DM, I might allow this, as long as it wasn't obvious cheese or contrary to role-playing, e.g., a cleric of the Red Knight (who must be lawful) requesting access to Tempus' Chaos domain spells.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018


    I agree on the "one level dip", but multi-classed paladins can certainly work for role-playing reasons. It just depends on the deity.

    I agree that there are role play reasons to do so. 100%. And I don't discount anyone's role play reasons FOR doing it. My problem is those that make up 'Role play EXCUSES' to do it.

    And this is only for my personal game. I do not propose to tell anyone else how to play. "For me", if I play a Paladin/whatever... That character is a Paladin in all things first and foremost. Anything else is a skill. I see a LOT of players who take Paladins (and clerics and other classes) merely for the bonus to saving throws.

  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,427
    Wow! Great discussion guys!
    It looks like I must stick to a singular deity's domains because of official rulings but definitely am enjoying this discussion hardcore.

  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,068
    Iirc, the official 3.5 rules for Paladin multiclassing is that they can be any class before they become Paladins but have to stick to the Paladin class afterwards, unless they are part of an order that allows advancing in another class. Most of Mystra's holy orders does allow the Paladins to multiclass as both Wizards and Sorcerers. Fighter and Cleric advances are allowed by a lot of orders, and some halfling pantheon god's orders even allow Rogues.

    Vallmyr said:

    As in the title, could a Cleric choose its domains from a pantheon? Such as a Drow Cleric of the Dark Seldarine choosing say the Undeath Domain from Kiaransalee and the Trickery Domain from Vhaeraun?

    One thing you could do is ask to be able to choose domains from different aspects of the same god, like Talos/Gruumsh or Chuantea/Yondalla.

    You could create a half-orc cleric who venerates Gruumsh as his primary aspect but also as Talos. Perhaps his/her human parent worshipped Talos while the orc parent worshiped Gruumsh.
    4th Edition Heresy!

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018


    You could create a half-orc cleric who venerates Gruumsh as his primary aspect but also as Talos. Perhaps his/her human parent worshipped Talos while the orc parent worshiped Gruumsh.

    I think that, as in real life, you would end up with someone who worships one faith/religion and merely respects the customs of the other. Serving two masters (and that is what a cleric is, a servant) is tough, particularly among the devout. Or at least that is my experience.

    Again, understand that there's a BIG difference between being a member of a religion and actually being clergy for that religion. One merely requires belief and respect of custom. The other requires (or should do) deep abiding devotion and complete loyalty.

    Again, in my humble opinion and not meant in any way to alter/change or belittle anyone else's beliefs or ways of seeing things.

  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,068
    @the_spyder - I believe he is referring to how in 4th edition Talos and Gruumsh is the same god.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @scriver - thanks. I did not know. I stand corrected.

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Vallmyr said:

    Wow! Great discussion guys!
    It looks like I must stick to a singular deity's domains because of official rulings but definitely am enjoying this discussion hardcore.

    What you really should do is what is most fun in your opinion.

    scriver
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