The Point of Charisma

GueulEclator

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the old baldur's gate 1 and 2, charisma had absolutely no utility except a small discount in stores.
It had no combat utility and no spell utility. No ability utility at all.

It was a bit awkward to have that useless stat, and especially a bit disappointing to see charisma not doing anything.

By any hope does Beamdog plan to fix this? By giving charisma more use than shop discount?

What do you guys think?? Did you found out another use for charisma?


My suggestion : - Charisma should affect bard song (makes sense).

-Charisma should affect summoning : the more you have charisma, the better are your invocations.

-Charisma should affect some other priest spells.

Lemernis

Apparently if the party leader's Cha is low enough arguments and even fights to the death will erupt between certain NPCs. In all the years I played the game I hadn't known that until reading it here in the last couple weeks. I knew about the antagonistic relationships and fights, just not what triggered them. My party leaders were always too high in Cha to see them break out.

I'm not sure if there are any reaction checks from NPCs that have them say or do more for you based on high Cha. Such as maybe they provide additional dialogue, more helpful information about the area, etc. That would be a nifty mod, though. (Maybe there is such a mod now for all I know, I've been away from the game for the last four years.)

Permidion_Stark

Lemernis said:

Apparently if the party leader's Cha is low enough arguments and even fights to the death will erupt between certain NPCs. In all the years I played the game I hadn't known that until reading it here in the last couple weeks. I knew about the antagonistic relationships and fights, just not what triggered them. My party leaders were always too high in Cha to see them break out.

I didn't know that either. Damn, I love it when my NPCs resort to fisticuffs and I didn't realise it was me that was stopping them because my paladin leads from the front.

LadyRhian

Apparently, you also need a fairly high charisma to get certain NPCs to join you. I've never experienced this myself, but I have heard it.

Jalily

Lemernis said:

I'm not sure if there are any reaction checks from NPCs that have them say or do more for you based on high Cha. Such as maybe they provide additional dialogue, more helpful information about the area, etc. That would be a nifty mod, though. (Maybe there is such a mod now for all I know, I've been away from the game for the last four years.)

There are, some NPCs react much better to high charisma + reputation and will offer you quests, better rewards, and different dialogue. It affects whether Xan wants to join you and whether Fuller gives you a +1 dagger in Candlekeep. And other things, like a quest giver screaming for help when I talked to him with Xzar. Unfortunately, I can't remember his name.

But since you can initiate conversation with whomever you want, charisma is pretty useless as an individual stat for most of the game.

drawnacrol

I've heard it also factors into rewards at the end of some quests.

I always rob Ribald's ring at the start of BGII so I never had problems with low charisma.

Permidion_Stark

As far as I remember in PnP D&D, a character's charisma has a bearing on the number of followers they could attract. I suppose you could come up with a mod where the CHARNAME's charisma affects the number of NPCs they are able to have in the party. Characters with really low CHA might only be able to have two or three NPCs at a time.

At present I think it is reputation rather than charisma that affects whether NPCs are willing to join you in BG.

Djimmy

drawnacrol said:

I've heard it also factors into rewards at the end of some quests.

I always rob Ribald's ring at the start of BGII so I never had problems with low charisma.

Did you mean "Ring of human influence"? Isn't Ribald's ring a regeneration ring or something?

O_Bruce

Charisma is increasting "reaction" value, which could result in better quest reward in BG1 - not sure if that is present in BG2.

But anyway, for me the point of charisma is to roleplay. I seriously see no sense in a party commanded by someone of lower CHA than ogre.

Lemernis

ZelgadisGW said:

Charisma is increasting "reaction" value, which could result in better quest reward in BG1 - not sure if that is present in BG2.

But anyway, for me the point of charisma is to roleplay. I seriously see no sense in a party commanded by someone of lower CHA than ogre.

Actually, for a mod that tweaks Cha it would be a nice feature if certain NPCs leave the party if a leader with low Charisma is at the helm too long. Or threaten to, and then do, if a change isn't made after a certain period of time. Variably, according to the NPC's personality and his or her already scripted relationship with the leader NPC.

Permidion_Stark

Perhaps the game could be modded so that the CHARNAME is considered to be the leader of the party even if they are not standing at the front. After all, if I'm playing a mage I'm going to stick a tank in the leader spot but I figure I'm still in charge.

Lemernis

When selecting the party formation in the GUI, the designated leader always assumes the 'point' position, right? That's how I'm remembering the game... And isn't the order of the portraits from top to bottom also a factor? (It's been years since I played.)

ajwz

The classic : "I wish the party leaders charisma could determine the total number of companions they could have" has always been on top of my wishlist for bg

Permidion_Stark

Lemernis said:

When selecting the party formation in the GUI, the designated leader always assumes the 'point' position, right? That's how I'm remembering the game... And isn't the order of the portraits from top to bottom also a factor? (It's been years since I played.)

Yes, that's right. The way the game works is that the person in the top slot is regarded as the leader, which is fine if you are playing as a fighter or a paladin. But if you are playing anything else the sensible position to adopt is in the centre of the party. What I was suggesting is that the game could be Modded so that the CHARNAME is still the leader even if they are hiding at the back while Minsc takes point.

I don't mind Minsc thinking he's the leader (or thinking Boo is the leader for that matter) but I'm still in charge dammit!

Talvrae

Does it's the primary stat for the Sorceror?

Thief_Of_Navarre

Primary casting stat in baldur's gate for sorceror was intelligence. An oversight on the part of the devopers since it was never intended to be a 2E player class. A good question though..

Mokona

Talvrae said:

Does it's the primary stat for the Sorceror?

In the Baldur's gate series, the sorcerer's primary stat is actually intelligence even though it's technically supposed to be charisma. I believe it was done that way because of an engine limitation on the way the magic system works, or it was just an oversight.

ajwz

Haha actually sorcerors have no primary casting stat at all. The only reason you might want int 11 is to cast from scrolls. Honestly, of the 3 casting stats as a sorceror, you are better off with wisdom, since you can at least use the wish and limited wish spells effectively. Otherwise just use all 3 as dump stats and put the rest in str con and dex for a really buff sorceror.
Yeah sorcs in bg are kinda stupid.

Talvrae

Well hope they fix that

Mokona

So int makes no difference? hah! nice.

Talvrae

If i mght not be forsaken it's actually the kind of thing they can change, and well they should that exactelly the kind of oversight of the original that make the Enhanced Edition is needed

Isair

Prevents morale failure in NPCs as well, +1 dagger isn't all - Boots of the north and other quest rewards as well - little girl and her waterlogged cat, if you have low charisma she'll give you a cursed scroll if not she'll give you (I think) a protection from undead scroll.

@Lemernis regarding the fights to the death - Yes, Viconia & Keldorn for one.

More gold is always good too, I usually sell and steal back items (good way to generate a fortune).

GueulEclator

Updated with my suggestions.

Cuan

Charisma is all about leadership and the ability to have people like you.

In the game this is reflected by cheaper prices in stores, which is also affected by reputation. Both reputation and charisma discounts stack.

Also it affects outcomes in dialogues in some events and affects rewards after completing some quests.

In combat, the leaders charisma, affects morale failure on your party members. Try it out for yourself. Create a character with very low charisma and watch your party flee with morale failure: running at 50% health most the time. They will also flee with 100% health if party members around them start to die.

It also affects inter-party reactions. A leader with low charisma with Xzar/Montaron and Khalid/Jaheira in the party will result in the four mentioned fighting to the death. It is pretty funny. The characters will still be in your party when they fight but uncontrollable. Their circles will change a dark blue.

So I would say charisma has a big affect on combat and the game in general. Having a leader with low charisma makes the game very challenging and at times will make you lose battles long before the battle is actually lost as all your party members are running in morale failure: running and getting gibbed.

Cuan

The thing is most people think charisma does nothing as they automatically put a high charisma character as leader most the time for the shop discounts.

What you dont see is the morale failute chance being reduced or eliminated with high enough charisma as well as the elimination of in party fighting when you have evil and good mixed.

So I think it is fine as is. Not all stats need to be actively and visably doing something.

Quartz

Yeah, wrong. In BG2, Charisma made no difference. In BG1, it totally did. There are a ton of quests where you get shit if you have a low Charisma, but they will give you something actually worthwhile if you have a high Charisma.

It's NPC reaction ... It's based on Charisma + Rep.

I've also heard that some quests that are given to you in the city Baldur's Gate will only be given if you have a low Rep/Charisma. I think the quest for Algernon's Cloak is one of them ... of course who in their right mind would actually turn in that quest.

And, to further repeat what previous posters have said, if you have a high charisma character leading the party there is a lesser chance of morale failure and inter-party fighting. I always hear people saying "blah blah I can't have good and evil NPCs cuz they will fight!!!!111" and I have literally had that problem all of two times. This is because I usually have someone with a fairly high charisma at the front.

Schneidend

I like the idea of modding the game's scripts so that CHARNAME's Charisma is always the value the party uses, so you can't just throw Ajantis or Keldorn into the top slot and then post about how "useless" Charisma is.

Basically, anything that screws over min/maxers will warm the cockles of my heart.

Heavyline

Lemernis said:

Apparently if the party leader's Cha is low enough arguments and even fights to the death will erupt between certain NPCs. In all the years I played the game I hadn't known that until reading it here in the last couple weeks. I knew about the antagonistic relationships and fights, just not what triggered them. My party leaders were always too high in Cha to see them break out.

Damnit. No wonder I've never experienced conflicts between NPCs in my playthroughs. Everytime I've played as a character with high charisma because it felt more "logical" to be a protagonist who's a good leader. The only time I ever had a conflict between NPCs was during my first time playing Baldur's gate and I had of course Jaheira/Khalid and Xzar/Montaron in my party. I had something like 6 charisma (didn't know that you can get different amount of stats when rerolling). Now Iam currently playing as swashbuckler in BG2 with 16 charisma, since I was thinking that swashbucklers are charming fellows. I took Minsc and Edwin along in the same party and was hoping for a conflict. They've been together for 30 days and Edwin only has mocked him once when I resurrected Minsc from the dead.

Seems like I should create a character with poor charisma when it's time for BG:EE ... to see those conflicts again.

GueulEclator

Cuan said:

Charisma is all about leadership and the ability to have people like you.

In the game this is reflected by cheaper prices in stores, which is also affected by reputation. Both reputation and charisma discounts stack.

Also it affects outcomes in dialogues in some events and affects rewards after completing some quests.

In combat, the leaders charisma, affects morale failure on your party members. Try it out for yourself. Create a character with very low charisma and watch your party flee with morale failure: running at 50% health most the time. They will also flee with 100% health if party members around them start to die.

It also affects inter-party reactions. A leader with low charisma with Xzar/Montaron and Khalid/Jaheira in the party will result in the four mentioned fighting to the death. It is pretty funny. The characters will still be in your party when they fight but uncontrollable. Their circles will change a dark blue.

So I would say charisma has a big affect on combat and the game in general. Having a leader with low charisma makes the game very challenging and at times will make you lose battles long before the battle is actually lost as all your party members are running in morale failure: running and getting gibbed.

That's only true in the beginning of the game. Once you character have higher level they never have moral failure.

I never had a singly moral failure in BG2 for example.

Grieg

I tried once to play a half-orc dumb without charisma, and sadly he had all the same options to talk.
He lived as long as I didn't kill some people in Friendly Arm Inn and than hunted down by flaming fist suddenly appearing patrols. You know half-orc without brain (stats:19/18/19/1/3/3) and still he could use so many difficult words.

Again it reminds me fallout where you couldn't even properly talk with such stats. Great was when others tried to translate difficult words into character's little brain. Last quest giving was something like: "You kill bad guys... because they are bad... kill them". And of course you couldn't get almost all side-quests because you couldn't communicate properly.

So actually in BG charisma is much less useful.

Isair

That half-orc isn't going to last long against mindflayers haha. He'd be a light snack.