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[Classes\Kits Request] Make Wizard Specialisations Special

AntonAnton Member, Moderator, Mobile Tester Posts: 513
(Reddit request by HeroicSpur)

I know this one is quite a substantial change/improvement to request, but I think it would substantially improve the game.

The mage kits/specialisations have nothing special about them except that they are prevented from casting spells from opposition schools. (+1 spell for each new level isn't special because all specialisations have it).

I submit that the specialisations could be made much more special, much more interesting and much more balanced by granting unique bonsues to each specialisation as they level (like other kits).

As things stand certain specialisations, despite conferring no bonus beyond other specialisations, are worse. For example an invoker is a terrible specialisation, a conjuror is an excellent one (the only spell they really lose is identify, which can easily be compensated for).

There is also a problem that there is nothing to make a conjuror any better a summoner than a plain mage, or a necromancer any better at dealing with necromancy than a diviner.

The final problem to hurl into the mix, is that spells are currently imbalanced, we know spells like chill touch and ghoul touch are rubbish, but equally spells like monster summoning 1 become entirely useless as the game goes on.

My suggestion is to give each specialisation certain improvements as it levels, for example:

Necromancer: -At level 7 the necromancer can channel more energy into his touch spells, when casting vampiric touch, he will also simultaneoulsy cast chill touch, provided it is memorised (both spells then get used up). etc etc
This kills 2 birds with one stone, not only does a rubbish spell now have a reason to be memorised, the necromancer now is more unique when casting certain necromantic spells.

Another example,

Conjuror: -Every 6 levels the conjurors summoning limit increases by 1 -At level 8, creatures summoned by monster summoning 1 do not count to the summoning limit -At level 11, creatures summoned by monster summoing II do not count to the summoning limit etc etc

Again this serves to make the conjuror, a conjuror, setting him apart from other wizards when summoning. This is also gives utility to some crap spells like MS1.

I would urge that this be implemented in some form. It would add substantially to gameplay balance, roleplay value and fun factor, having truly unique spellcasters. Instead of necromancers loaded with evocation spells, and diviners loaded with fingers of death.

The worse specalisations might be granted better bonuses to make them more viable (like the invoker mentioned earlier).
Post edited by Anton on
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Comments

  • AntonAnton Member, Moderator, Mobile Tester Posts: 513
    Comments from Reddit:

    [–]ZelGW 2 points 1 month ago
    Cool suggestion, but then again what pros would be to play a pure, normal mage?

    [–]Cadros 4 points 1 month ago
    Would making their additional spell slots confined to their school be enough do you think?

    [–]riklaunim 1 point 1 month ago
    You could dualclass into a normal mage. So either play specialised mage with no extra class to improve it, or play normal mage in a dual/multiclass combination.

    [–]ZelGW 2 points 1 month ago
    It's not alright with me. I don't want to "go specialist or dual it/gtfo".
    In short, having normal mage should have some pros as well.

    [–]Noldofinwe 2 points 1 month ago
    Mmm I'm in 2 minds about this, one part says the more the better, but another part says they should (and probably will) stick with the AD&D 2E rules, so i don't expect any chance here. I like how they did it with the Pathfinder rules, giving each specialization extra powers (not spells) and universalist/generalist is a specialization as well with its own special powers.

    [–]HeroicSpur[S] 1 point 1 month ago
    Would giving the odd bonus count as a rule change? They are creating new classes and kits and have said the rules aren't going to be changed, so I thought tinkering with kits might be a bit of an exception.
    As for the normal mage, they could be balanced by removing the extra spell from specialists, or giving the wizard specialisations disadvantages as well as advantages, or granting the pure mage the odd generalist bonus as they level. That is contingent however, on the extent of the bonus applied to specialisms.
    In any case I think limiting the extra spell per level to the specialisation as Cadros says, might be a good compromise.

    [–]kmark232323 1 point 1 month ago
    I would give 2 suggestions for handling Specialist...
    1) Specialist should be better at casting spells from their specialty. +1 per damage die, force negative ST bonuses on their victims when casting spells from their specialty school, etc..
    2) Only allow bonus spell choices to come from their specialty school. Ex. 1st level Invoker gets 3 spells, 2 from his spellbook and 1 from only the spells of his specialty school.
    DukeOfSuffolk
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    Better idea: Specialist is an extra option.
    Mages can get REAL kits (and Wild Mage) and a choice of specialization.


    Let's come up with one now!

    Archmage - An Archmage is a savant with magic. To him, incantations are east, and scrolls flow into his or her mind with little thought. Tomes are drank in, and knowledge and Arcana are infinite, they are practically shutins, and require strong adventurers to guide them.

    Advantages
    +2 Casting level
    +1 Spell slot each level
    +15% Spell learning
    Enemies roll -1 saves vs. their spells


    Disadvantages
    Maximum strength and Con 14
    Rolls 1d3 for health instead of 1d4
    +2 AC penalty



    So you can after choosing this kit, can choose a specialist mage for an extra slot and a locked school if you wish.
    TauronUlfgar_Torunn
  • trinittrinit Member Posts: 705
    i guess that could work, but i think the point in modifying spells and HLAs is for player to have opportunity to look forward to new spells and to feel more accomplished in his level progression. kit bonuses are mostly passive and rarely affect gameplay progressively.
    monk is a shining exception to this, with his abilities developing as he gains experience, so as far as i am concerned, that makes him very compelling to play for extended periods of time.
    HeroicSpurtena
  • HeroicSpurHeroicSpur Member Posts: 907
    I think a request like this would be unfeasible and way too much work to be implemented if this was BG for the first time round. But considering this is an enhanced edition, this is an opportunity really to take those areas that there wasn't time to work before, and make them stand out. Greater depth to kits and specialism I would say is a very important component of that.

    Remember too that character creation is the first thing that a player coming back to BG after 10 or however many years, will see. Character creation is also a fun part of the game in and of itself. If there's not much new and improved there, some players might find it a bit disappointing.
    Scooter
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    I like the idea of some sort of unique power or bonus to differentiate the different specialists.
  • GalactygonGalactygon Member, Developer Posts: 412
    In AD&D, specialist mages were given certain special abilities (like unsummoning for Conjurers), and the extra spell slot was restricted to their school of specialization. They also were able to impose -1 to saving throws for their school of magic, as well as learn certain spells restricted to specialists (like Skull Trap for Necromancers). However, they had not one but two schools (and sometimes three) from which they were restricted casting spells.

    What I'd like to see from the BG:EE team is a couple of extra high level Enchantment, Divination, and Illusion spells to make those specializations worthwhile. Otherwise, I feel the changes should be kept to a minimum and allow the modders to do the rest.

    -Galactygon
    AranneasCener
  • HeroicSpurHeroicSpur Member Posts: 907
    @Galactygon: I would be very happy if the rule compliant changes you mentioned were implemented, that way no-one can complain that this is inappropriate or unjustified.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    @Galactygon: Since we're talking BG:EE I doubt the high level spells you are talking about will make it in what with the level cap and all.
  • GalactygonGalactygon Member, Developer Posts: 412
    Oh sorry, I keep thinking about BGII: EE! Nevertheless, I still think Divination should have more than illusion dispelling spells.

    -Galactygon
  • AlejandroAlejandro Member Posts: 201
    I like this idea. In fact, I think it would help "newbies" or "not a pro" people like me to move from regular Wizards to Specialized ones. Which is actually a great thing, because you would be encouraging roleplay, and that`s the point of the game.

    Also, In the original game the advantages for specializing weren't really "appealing" so I kinda love the example you provide.

    "Conjuror: -Every 6 levels the conjurors summoning limit increases by 1 -At level 8, creatures summoned by monster summoning 1 do not count to the summoning limit -At level 11, creatures summoned by monster summoing II do not count to the summoning limit etc etc"

    So hey, I want to summon minions to fight for me. Oh look, If am I conjurer I can clearly see the advantages for what I want to do. Let`s go with that.

    Forgive in advance for my poor representation of reality. But I actually think that would really help new people to try out more "complex" or "uncommon" stuff while playing. And that will make their experiences more enjoyable and grant even more replay value.
    HeroicSpurAntontena
  • CadrosCadros Member Posts: 253
    I think making the additional spell slot having to be spent on the school of choice would indeed go a long way to differentiating specialists to begin with, that and we should add the cantrips I suggested (shameless bump for my pet idea) (http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/90/request-cantrips#latest)
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    The more restrictions placed on Spec Mages, the less valuable specializing becomes. Before long, Wild Mage will be the only viable mage choice having +1 spells but no barred schools.

    I really think there should be actual mage kits though.
  • CadrosCadros Member Posts: 253
    Well wild mages have draw backs of their own :p
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    edited June 2012
    A 5% chance to surge is a lot less brutal than losing a whole school or 2 of spell options.
    Post edited by Dazzu on
  • technophobetechnophobe Member Posts: 68
    Just require that a specialist must memorize at least one spell from his school. Anything else is a major overhaul outside the scope of "enhancing."
  • AliteriAliteri Member Posts: 308
    A 5% chance to surge is a lot more brutal than losing a whole school or 2 of spell options.
    Is that sarcasm?
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    It's actually me writing that in reverse. I will fix that.
    Dee
  • HeroicSpurHeroicSpur Member Posts: 907
    The problem with just having specialisations limited to their school for their extra spell per level is that it discourages the sh*t specialisations even more/makes them even worse! It also as others have said reduces the incentive to play as a specialist.
  • AliteriAliteri Member Posts: 308
    I know everyone knows this but I thought it was a interesting way of putting things. The way specialization works is not just underwhelming but also counterintuitive - you don't pick, say, your favorite spell school but rather the one you can do with being spell locked, therefore your least favorite one.

    ''Spell Prohibition
    Elementalist and School magic specialists may not attempt to learn or use spells from their opposition school.
    Spell Learning Bonus/Penalty
    Specialists gain a bonus when trying to learn spells within their specialty, but must take a penalty when trying to learn spells outside their specialty. School magic specialists receive a +15%/-15% bonus/penalty when trying to learn spells inside/outside their specialty. Elemental specialists receive +25%/+15%/-25% adjustments when trying to learn a spell inside their elemental specialty/any elemental spell/any other spell. Wild magic specialists receive a +10%/-5% bonus/penalty when trying to learn wild/normal spells.
    Spell Bonus
    Specialists receive one extra spell at each spell level, provided they memorized at least one spell from their specialty at that level.
    Saving Throw Adjustment
    School specialists gain a +1 to save against spells of their specialty, and targets of specialized magic cast by a school specialist save at -1. Elementalist specialists receieve +2/-2 bonuses. Wild mages receive no adjustment.''

    - http://underdark.netdemons.com/lists/newmagic_rules.html - not sure if its entirely correct

    But I think that the saving throw adjustment is a interesting thing to look at.
    AntonSixheadeddog
  • technophobetechnophobe Member Posts: 68
    The problem with just having specialisations limited to their school for their extra spell per level is that it discourages the sh*t specialisations even more/makes them even worse! It also as others have said reduces the incentive to play as a specialist.
    Ok, then don't play a specialist? Many others are just fine with them without all power levels being equal.
  • AliteriAliteri Member Posts: 308
    The problem with just having specialisations limited to their school for their extra spell per level is that it discourages the sh*t specialisations even more/makes them even worse! It also as others have said reduces the incentive to play as a specialist.
    Ok, then don't play a specialist? Many others are just fine with them without all power levels being equal.
    As it is, its just badly designed. Why would you play a Illusionist? Because you wouldn't miss Horrid Wilting too much and to memorize more spells of any school level. Nothing there screams 'Illusionism'.

    And the thing is that specialist and generalist mages are the weakest of all arcane spellcasters. As far as dedicated arcane spellcasters go, Wild Mages and Sorcerers just do it better and with more options and that's not even bringing multi and duals into the equation. Giving something more for each specialization wouldn't break the game.
    GrammarsaladAntontena
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    I like the general idea. What would you do for a diviner though? Lore bonus?
  • AliteriAliteri Member Posts: 308
    I had this idea that doesn't sound very overpowered, and then I realized it sort of also helped the generalist mages who, IMO, are in a even worse situation than the specialists - generalists barely have anything over duals and multis and don't get me started on the gnome multi ^^.

    I was thinking something along these lines: Generalists now have as many spell slots as the specialists, who retain the spell lockout.

    However, the specialists may store ONE spell of their own school on a spell level directly below the spell's original spell level.

    Would it be overkill or is it a interesting idea?
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @Aliteri

    Perhaps not overkill, but rather overly convoluted.
  • AliteriAliteri Member Posts: 308
    @Tanthalas

    Umm.. I see, too bad.
  • MilesBeyondMilesBeyond Member Posts: 324
    edited July 2012
    I think it would be cool to give each spec mage class a specific bonus beyond the extra spell. I'm thinking maybe casting each spell of their school at a higher level than they are? I'd like to see there being advantages between the different specialists. So for example, an Invoker's Fireball would do more damage, a Transmuter's Haste would last longer, an Illusionist's Mirror Image would last longer, a Necromancer's Animate Dead will be able to summon a Skeleton Warrior at a lower level, etc.

    Not every spell is effected by level but it would make things interesting, IMHO.

    Also, having the schools correspond as they do in Icewind Dale would make for a better balanced selection, I think. For example, in IWD Conjurers can't cast invocation spells. By comparison, in BG the Conjurer can't cast... Divination. Big sacrifice.

    In IWD it's really difficult to pick a "best" mage kit, as they all give up some good spells in return for their extra spell slot.

    So I propose we bring over that system (I know, no spells or anything from IWD, but banned schools of magic should be okay, right?) and give a bit of an edge to compensate for that.
  • AranneasAranneas Member Posts: 282
    Easier solution would just be to bring in some spells to the underwhelming schools that make them more of a sacrifice to give up.
  • wariisopwariisop Member Posts: 163
    It is better to increase the amount of spells available that way the extra spell each lvl will seem more important. Give the game at least 12 spells per lvl and this game will be fantastic. People love options.
  • MilesBeyondMilesBeyond Member Posts: 324
    wariisop said:

    It is better to increase the amount of spells available that way the extra spell each lvl will seem more important. Give the game at least 12 spells per lvl and this game will be fantastic. People love options.

    Buh? The game's already got tons of spells. I haven't counted but I'm sure many of the lower levels have well over 12, and the higher levels are approaching it. If you count HLAs, even level 9 has more than 12 spells.

    What would really be better is making some of the spells a bit more viable, but then that's hard to do, because their usefulness varies by level. Probably no one in the history of BG2 has used the spell Sleep more than once, but in BG1 it dominates, it is an absolutely amazing spell that is easily more useful than things like Magic Missile and Chromatic Orb.

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