[Classes\Kits Request] Make Wizard Specialisations Special
Anton
Member, Moderator, Mobile Tester Posts: 513
(Reddit request by HeroicSpur)
I know this one is quite a substantial change/improvement to request, but I think it would substantially improve the game.
The mage kits/specialisations have nothing special about them except that they are prevented from casting spells from opposition schools. (+1 spell for each new level isn't special because all specialisations have it).
I submit that the specialisations could be made much more special, much more interesting and much more balanced by granting unique bonsues to each specialisation as they level (like other kits).
As things stand certain specialisations, despite conferring no bonus beyond other specialisations, are worse. For example an invoker is a terrible specialisation, a conjuror is an excellent one (the only spell they really lose is identify, which can easily be compensated for).
There is also a problem that there is nothing to make a conjuror any better a summoner than a plain mage, or a necromancer any better at dealing with necromancy than a diviner.
The final problem to hurl into the mix, is that spells are currently imbalanced, we know spells like chill touch and ghoul touch are rubbish, but equally spells like monster summoning 1 become entirely useless as the game goes on.
My suggestion is to give each specialisation certain improvements as it levels, for example:
Necromancer: -At level 7 the necromancer can channel more energy into his touch spells, when casting vampiric touch, he will also simultaneoulsy cast chill touch, provided it is memorised (both spells then get used up). etc etc
This kills 2 birds with one stone, not only does a rubbish spell now have a reason to be memorised, the necromancer now is more unique when casting certain necromantic spells.
Another example,
Conjuror: -Every 6 levels the conjurors summoning limit increases by 1 -At level 8, creatures summoned by monster summoning 1 do not count to the summoning limit -At level 11, creatures summoned by monster summoing II do not count to the summoning limit etc etc
Again this serves to make the conjuror, a conjuror, setting him apart from other wizards when summoning. This is also gives utility to some crap spells like MS1.
I would urge that this be implemented in some form. It would add substantially to gameplay balance, roleplay value and fun factor, having truly unique spellcasters. Instead of necromancers loaded with evocation spells, and diviners loaded with fingers of death.
The worse specalisations might be granted better bonuses to make them more viable (like the invoker mentioned earlier).
I know this one is quite a substantial change/improvement to request, but I think it would substantially improve the game.
The mage kits/specialisations have nothing special about them except that they are prevented from casting spells from opposition schools. (+1 spell for each new level isn't special because all specialisations have it).
I submit that the specialisations could be made much more special, much more interesting and much more balanced by granting unique bonsues to each specialisation as they level (like other kits).
As things stand certain specialisations, despite conferring no bonus beyond other specialisations, are worse. For example an invoker is a terrible specialisation, a conjuror is an excellent one (the only spell they really lose is identify, which can easily be compensated for).
There is also a problem that there is nothing to make a conjuror any better a summoner than a plain mage, or a necromancer any better at dealing with necromancy than a diviner.
The final problem to hurl into the mix, is that spells are currently imbalanced, we know spells like chill touch and ghoul touch are rubbish, but equally spells like monster summoning 1 become entirely useless as the game goes on.
My suggestion is to give each specialisation certain improvements as it levels, for example:
Necromancer: -At level 7 the necromancer can channel more energy into his touch spells, when casting vampiric touch, he will also simultaneoulsy cast chill touch, provided it is memorised (both spells then get used up). etc etc
This kills 2 birds with one stone, not only does a rubbish spell now have a reason to be memorised, the necromancer now is more unique when casting certain necromantic spells.
Another example,
Conjuror: -Every 6 levels the conjurors summoning limit increases by 1 -At level 8, creatures summoned by monster summoning 1 do not count to the summoning limit -At level 11, creatures summoned by monster summoing II do not count to the summoning limit etc etc
Again this serves to make the conjuror, a conjuror, setting him apart from other wizards when summoning. This is also gives utility to some crap spells like MS1.
I would urge that this be implemented in some form. It would add substantially to gameplay balance, roleplay value and fun factor, having truly unique spellcasters. Instead of necromancers loaded with evocation spells, and diviners loaded with fingers of death.
The worse specalisations might be granted better bonuses to make them more viable (like the invoker mentioned earlier).
Post edited by Anton on
11
Comments
[–]ZelGW 2 points 1 month ago
Cool suggestion, but then again what pros would be to play a pure, normal mage?
[–]Cadros 4 points 1 month ago
Would making their additional spell slots confined to their school be enough do you think?
[–]riklaunim 1 point 1 month ago
You could dualclass into a normal mage. So either play specialised mage with no extra class to improve it, or play normal mage in a dual/multiclass combination.
[–]ZelGW 2 points 1 month ago
It's not alright with me. I don't want to "go specialist or dual it/gtfo".
In short, having normal mage should have some pros as well.
[–]Noldofinwe 2 points 1 month ago
Mmm I'm in 2 minds about this, one part says the more the better, but another part says they should (and probably will) stick with the AD&D 2E rules, so i don't expect any chance here. I like how they did it with the Pathfinder rules, giving each specialization extra powers (not spells) and universalist/generalist is a specialization as well with its own special powers.
[–]HeroicSpur[S] 1 point 1 month ago
Would giving the odd bonus count as a rule change? They are creating new classes and kits and have said the rules aren't going to be changed, so I thought tinkering with kits might be a bit of an exception.
As for the normal mage, they could be balanced by removing the extra spell from specialists, or giving the wizard specialisations disadvantages as well as advantages, or granting the pure mage the odd generalist bonus as they level. That is contingent however, on the extent of the bonus applied to specialisms.
In any case I think limiting the extra spell per level to the specialisation as Cadros says, might be a good compromise.
[–]kmark232323 1 point 1 month ago
I would give 2 suggestions for handling Specialist...
1) Specialist should be better at casting spells from their specialty. +1 per damage die, force negative ST bonuses on their victims when casting spells from their specialty school, etc..
2) Only allow bonus spell choices to come from their specialty school. Ex. 1st level Invoker gets 3 spells, 2 from his spellbook and 1 from only the spells of his specialty school.
i'm mentioning this because i think modification like this could make the old classes feel like new kits (without giving them imaginary abilities) and there is obviously potential to work on them.
there is an excellent little mod that tweaks the HLA abilities in bg2, makig greater distinction between wizard slayer, kensai and monk, insted of treating them all like a basic fighter. i think revision like this could go from the first level spell to the HLA abilities (also for priests), that would actually make choosing specific specialization a playing strategy.
as far as plain mages go, the main privilege of basic mage is ability to dual/multi class (with gnome illusionst exception). specialization is called that for a reason, right?
Mages can get REAL kits (and Wild Mage) and a choice of specialization.
Let's come up with one now!
Archmage - An Archmage is a savant with magic. To him, incantations are east, and scrolls flow into his or her mind with little thought. Tomes are drank in, and knowledge and Arcana are infinite, they are practically shutins, and require strong adventurers to guide them.
Advantages
+2 Casting level
+1 Spell slot each level
+15% Spell learning
Enemies roll -1 saves vs. their spells
Disadvantages
Maximum strength and Con 14
Rolls 1d3 for health instead of 1d4
+2 AC penalty
So you can after choosing this kit, can choose a specialist mage for an extra slot and a locked school if you wish.
monk is a shining exception to this, with his abilities developing as he gains experience, so as far as i am concerned, that makes him very compelling to play for extended periods of time.
Remember too that character creation is the first thing that a player coming back to BG after 10 or however many years, will see. Character creation is also a fun part of the game in and of itself. If there's not much new and improved there, some players might find it a bit disappointing.
What I'd like to see from the BG:EE team is a couple of extra high level Enchantment, Divination, and Illusion spells to make those specializations worthwhile. Otherwise, I feel the changes should be kept to a minimum and allow the modders to do the rest.
-Galactygon
-Galactygon
Also, In the original game the advantages for specializing weren't really "appealing" so I kinda love the example you provide.
"Conjuror: -Every 6 levels the conjurors summoning limit increases by 1 -At level 8, creatures summoned by monster summoning 1 do not count to the summoning limit -At level 11, creatures summoned by monster summoing II do not count to the summoning limit etc etc"
So hey, I want to summon minions to fight for me. Oh look, If am I conjurer I can clearly see the advantages for what I want to do. Let`s go with that.
Forgive in advance for my poor representation of reality. But I actually think that would really help new people to try out more "complex" or "uncommon" stuff while playing. And that will make their experiences more enjoyable and grant even more replay value.
I really think there should be actual mage kits though.
''Spell Prohibition
Elementalist and School magic specialists may not attempt to learn or use spells from their opposition school.
Spell Learning Bonus/Penalty
Specialists gain a bonus when trying to learn spells within their specialty, but must take a penalty when trying to learn spells outside their specialty. School magic specialists receive a +15%/-15% bonus/penalty when trying to learn spells inside/outside their specialty. Elemental specialists receive +25%/+15%/-25% adjustments when trying to learn a spell inside their elemental specialty/any elemental spell/any other spell. Wild magic specialists receive a +10%/-5% bonus/penalty when trying to learn wild/normal spells.
Spell Bonus
Specialists receive one extra spell at each spell level, provided they memorized at least one spell from their specialty at that level.
Saving Throw Adjustment
School specialists gain a +1 to save against spells of their specialty, and targets of specialized magic cast by a school specialist save at -1. Elementalist specialists receieve +2/-2 bonuses. Wild mages receive no adjustment.''
- http://underdark.netdemons.com/lists/newmagic_rules.html - not sure if its entirely correct
But I think that the saving throw adjustment is a interesting thing to look at.
And the thing is that specialist and generalist mages are the weakest of all arcane spellcasters. As far as dedicated arcane spellcasters go, Wild Mages and Sorcerers just do it better and with more options and that's not even bringing multi and duals into the equation. Giving something more for each specialization wouldn't break the game.
I was thinking something along these lines: Generalists now have as many spell slots as the specialists, who retain the spell lockout.
However, the specialists may store ONE spell of their own school on a spell level directly below the spell's original spell level.
Would it be overkill or is it a interesting idea?
Perhaps not overkill, but rather overly convoluted.
Umm.. I see, too bad.
Not every spell is effected by level but it would make things interesting, IMHO.
Also, having the schools correspond as they do in Icewind Dale would make for a better balanced selection, I think. For example, in IWD Conjurers can't cast invocation spells. By comparison, in BG the Conjurer can't cast... Divination. Big sacrifice.
In IWD it's really difficult to pick a "best" mage kit, as they all give up some good spells in return for their extra spell slot.
So I propose we bring over that system (I know, no spells or anything from IWD, but banned schools of magic should be okay, right?) and give a bit of an edge to compensate for that.
What would really be better is making some of the spells a bit more viable, but then that's hard to do, because their usefulness varies by level. Probably no one in the history of BG2 has used the spell Sleep more than once, but in BG1 it dominates, it is an absolutely amazing spell that is easily more useful than things like Magic Missile and Chromatic Orb.