Yeah, exactly. People who are all about dual-wielding being "overpowered" are only looking at pure end-game.
Early on, I'd give the edge to shields honestly. The percentages to get hit when everyone has pretty standard crappy Thac0 goes down significantly every single point of AC, and it's pretty difficult to land with your off-hand weapon even at a -2.
You guys also have to keep in mind I'm extremely cautious. I played the game hardcore many playthroughs, meaning if I died I just ended that character for good. I'm always going to favor a defensive build over an offensive one.
Hmm It's not something that I feel that strongly about either way really. I think sword & shield is fine but I've never put much thought into it. I've played through a Kensai with single weapon style and really enjoyed it. I also use it on characters like Jan.
The reason why Sword and Shield needs a boost is because the biggest bonus for using a shield (minimum -1 AC PLUS whatever bonuses the shield might confer) is applicable even if you haven't put any points in it, whereas dual-wielding is just about useless with a pip or two. So, put your points in dual-wield, and you can still reap the benefits of swapping in a shield whenever necessary. You don't get the AC bonus against missile weapons, but since when were missile weapons any threat in BG2? BG1, sure, but these were made for BG2, and have more impact in BG2, where prof points are more common.
That's true. I never really looked at it that way.
Considering how many ways you can go immune to at least normal missiles anyway, it is kind of a superfluous skill point. I usually focused on multiple weapons on my guys I planned on using shields with rather than take the perk.
In that context, I don't see how anyone could object to having one dual class on the back end. To use your example, someone who spends 3 years as a firefighter and then dedicates himself as an artist for 20 years should have their "kit" on the 20 year side not on the first end. Unlike real life, in BG you can only have 2 classes and you must have higher levels in the second class to be a meaningful dual-class. Therefore, having the option to kit on the back end rather than the front makes much more sense from the perspective of your real-life comparison.
@AHF I think we stand on the thin line where your cup is half-filled and my cup is half-empty. In my opinion, you can't have dual-class if you want to chose kit, you spend all your life on this specialization, that's why you take its benefits. Your example is closer for third redaction. You take few levels for fighter at the beginning, and then switch to something else. In second redaction you can reach, for example, 9 level with thief, and the same level with mage, while notdual class reach only 9. Your character became at least twice more powerfull than my. Take two levels in first class and then switch for kit in second redaction is good example, but, be honest, only few from hundreds people will do that. And, in the name of the Balance, we should look at extremumes of this dual-class. We should look on 9/9 level kensai/necromancer
I reach my first final battle only two weeks ago with solo mage. All my previous adventures come to the end when i reach Baldur's Gate. This is major reason why i love this game so much. I have thief, cleric and shield fighter to get pleasure from this game again. But i know, i will never play dual or multi class, or some kit in BG1 if they don't rebalance them, because if i want to desintegrate all my enemies with one click, i should play Diablo III.
Do you somehow feel cheated out of the gameplay experience if someone else had an easier time because they used tactics or builds you felt were too powerful?
No, i don't care how other people play BG. I just can't enjoy dual-class gameplay, and i sad that idea is useless for me. Then you tryin' to convince me i'm wrong
@sandmanCCL: I'm a cautious player too, and I've done numerous hardcore runs as well. Whenever I have a character who can use a shield, I always keep one with me (usually a tower shield). I often rotate the girdle of piercing + boots of missile avoidance between characters during battle - lots of micro-management! I just don't want to focus my balance arguments on really 'extreme' points in BG...such as ToB or hardcore runs.
As an aside, every run I do but a solo run is hardcore now. The game's been out for 14 years, gotta keep it interesting somehow, right?
I wonder if anyone does hardcore-solo runs. Someone must have...I doubt it was easy.
I wonder if anyone does hardcore-solo runs. Someone must have...I doubt it was easy.
What you expect from this solo run? Only main quest or all areas and sidequests? You what to see this on youtube with one piece video or like gamers do it with shooters (record different part separated and then pasted together)? Is it count if you try some hard battles 5-6 times before record?
Usually a hardcore run means that they play the entire game without reloading. Therefore the moment their character dies the first time they literally have to restart the game from candlekeep. Obviously adding solo to this makes it even more difficult.
I've only accomplished one complete BG saga solo hardcore run. I had a Blade once upon a time I did it with (BGtutu was installed for BG1, sue me). 11 Str, 18 Dex, 16 Con, 4 Wis, 18 Int, 15 Cha. Monster roll, basically. Abused the hell out of potions and wands and the pickpocket bug (where you can keep someone from going aggressive toward you if you talk to them immediately after the failed burgle.)
Hardest fight in the game was probably the one against Yaga-Shura simply because of how buggy that encounter can be. BG1 was a cake-walk til Sarevok. You have no idea how many potions of invisibility I chugged that fight. Musta been like 30.
I've attempted it a few times. I'd say 75% of the guys I attempt to get through BG1, I can get to at least Sarevok no problem. BG2 is fairly hairy til I get enough money to afford scrolls of protection and all the wonderful game-breaking items you can find throughout.
@Silence: I get that, and I agree. The concept of balanced needs to be approached from the idea for the every-gamer. I'm just saying, my own frame of reference is one that always favors caution. Even when I'm not playing hardcore, I'm extremely cautious. It's simply how trying to do it hardcore has shaped my style.
Usually a hardcore run means that they play the entire game without reloading. Therefore the moment their character dies the first time they literally have to restart the game from candlekeep. Obviously adding solo to this makes it even more difficult.
@Dragonspear I know what "hardcore" means, but you can't play Baldur's Gate 24-hours in a row. And you can't record even 4-hour adventure without losing quality. That's why i ask about limitations
@AHF I think we stand on the thin line where your cup is half-filled and my cup is half-empty. In my opinion, you can't have dual-class if you want to chose kit, you spend all your life on this specialization, that's why you take its benefits. Your example is closer for third redaction. You take few levels for fighter at the beginning, and then switch to something else. In second redaction you can reach, for example, 9 level with thief, and the same level with mage, while notdual class reach only 9. Your character became at least twice more powerfull than my. Take two levels in first class and then switch for kit in second redaction is good example, but, be honest, only few from hundreds people will do that. And, in the name of the Balance, we should look at extremumes of this dual-class. We should look on 9/9 level kensai/necromancer
I'm not sure I follow this line of discussion. I think having two kits is a terrible idea (like the Kensai/Necromancer). The line I am advocating is that if you are going to allow people with kits to dual class (and I tend to think that it makes more sense to require kits to be single classed), you should allow them to dual class on either end and not just on the front end.
The reality is that exceptional people who are absolute masters in one area do achieve significant development in other areas in real life - at times even being considered exceptional in those other areas as well. The term renaissance man evokes images of one of the best examples of this - Leonardo Da Vinci.
Leonardo Da Vinci would emerge as a master of painting, sculpture, engineering, cartography, botanical sciences, music, mathematics and more
Perhaps best known as an artist, his name inevitably brings forth images of the Last Supper and the Mona Lisa. He was also an architect and a scientist. Yet, if asked, he would ultimately refer to himself as an engineer. Driven by an unrelenting curiosity and an insatiable hunger for knowledge, da Vinci was an incredibly innovative thinker who perceived the world not only as his personal playground, but also as one with unlimited possibilities. From his fertile mind sprang designs of flying machines and instruments of war, as well as practical theories and concepts in engineering, mathematics, and science, many of which were centuries ahead of their times.
During his lifetime Leonardo was valued as an engineer. In a letter to Ludovico il Moro he claimed to be able to create all sorts of machines both for the protection of a city and for siege. When he fled to Venice in 1499 he found employment as an engineer and devised a system of moveable barricades to protect the city from attack. He also had a scheme for diverting the flow of the Arno River, a project on which Niccolò Machiavelli also worked.[94][95] Leonardo's journals include a vast number of inventions, both practical and impractical. They include musical instruments, hydraulic pumps, reversible crank mechanisms, finned mortar shells, and a steam cannon.[11][17] In 1502, Leonardo produced a drawing of a single span 720-foot (220 m) bridge as part of a civil engineering project for Ottoman Sultan Beyazid II of Constantinople. The bridge was intended to span an inlet at the mouth of the Bosporus known as the Golden Horn. Beyazid did not pursue the project because he believed that such a construction was impossible. Leonardo's vision was resurrected in 2001 when a smaller bridge based on his design was constructed in Norway.[96][97] For much of his life, Leonardo was fascinated by the phenomenon of flight, producing many studies of the flight of birds, including his c. 1505 Codex on the Flight of Birds, as well as plans for several flying machines, including a light hang glider and a machine resembling a helicopter.[17] The British television station Channel Four commissioned a documentary Leonardo's Dream Machines, for broadcast in 2003. Leonardo's machines were built and tested according to his original designs.[98] Some of those designs proved a success
Despite being reknowned as one of the acknowledged masters in art, he was hundreds of years ahead of his time in other disciplines such as engineering as well. I think you can make the argument that the BG protagonist is also an exceptional individual.
All that said, my preferences coming from the ground up would be:
(1) Kits can't dual class or multi-class. (2) If you allow dual classes with kits, then you should allow them on either the front end or the back end for the reasons I have mentioned above. Also worth mentioning is that this is easy to do with shadowkeeper and so would not be much of a technical challenge for the developers.
Comments
Early on, I'd give the edge to shields honestly. The percentages to get hit when everyone has pretty standard crappy Thac0 goes down significantly every single point of AC, and it's pretty difficult to land with your off-hand weapon even at a -2.
You guys also have to keep in mind I'm extremely cautious. I played the game hardcore many playthroughs, meaning if I died I just ended that character for good. I'm always going to favor a defensive build over an offensive one.
Considering how many ways you can go immune to at least normal missiles anyway, it is kind of a superfluous skill point. I usually focused on multiple weapons on my guys I planned on using shields with rather than take the perk.
I reach my first final battle only two weeks ago with solo mage. All my previous adventures come to the end when i reach Baldur's Gate. This is major reason why i love this game so much. I have thief, cleric and shield fighter to get pleasure from this game again. But i know, i will never play dual or multi class, or some kit in BG1 if they don't rebalance them, because if i want to desintegrate all my enemies with one click, i should play Diablo III.
As an aside, every run I do but a solo run is hardcore now. The game's been out for 14 years, gotta keep it interesting somehow, right?
I wonder if anyone does hardcore-solo runs. Someone must have...I doubt it was easy.
Usually a hardcore run means that they play the entire game without reloading. Therefore the moment their character dies the first time they literally have to restart the game from candlekeep. Obviously adding solo to this makes it even more difficult.
Hardest fight in the game was probably the one against Yaga-Shura simply because of how buggy that encounter can be. BG1 was a cake-walk til Sarevok. You have no idea how many potions of invisibility I chugged that fight. Musta been like 30.
I've attempted it a few times. I'd say 75% of the guys I attempt to get through BG1, I can get to at least Sarevok no problem. BG2 is fairly hairy til I get enough money to afford scrolls of protection and all the wonderful game-breaking items you can find throughout.
@Silence: I get that, and I agree. The concept of balanced needs to be approached from the idea for the every-gamer. I'm just saying, my own frame of reference is one that always favors caution. Even when I'm not playing hardcore, I'm extremely cautious. It's simply how trying to do it hardcore has shaped my style.
The reality is that exceptional people who are absolute masters in one area do achieve significant development in other areas in real life - at times even being considered exceptional in those other areas as well. The term renaissance man evokes images of one of the best examples of this - Leonardo Da Vinci. Despite being reknowned as one of the acknowledged masters in art, he was hundreds of years ahead of his time in other disciplines such as engineering as well. I think you can make the argument that the BG protagonist is also an exceptional individual.
All that said, my preferences coming from the ground up would be:
(1) Kits can't dual class or multi-class.
(2) If you allow dual classes with kits, then you should allow them on either the front end or the back end for the reasons I have mentioned above. Also worth mentioning is that this is easy to do with shadowkeeper and so would not be much of a technical challenge for the developers.