Adding too many things to BG:EE/BG2:EE.

SionIV

So before i start writing this, I would like to mention that I'm probably a minority when it comes to thinking like this. What I'm about to write hasn't happened yet and it might not happen at all, it's just a slight worry I'm having about the future of BG:EE and BG2:EE.

When BG:EE came out I was skeptical about it and worried that it wouldn't be the same game, when i saw the NPCs i cried "Doom!" and wanted to dig my head into the ground, trying to ignore it. It took me over a year to make the change from TuTu/BGT to BG:EE. Yet to this day I'm not too fond of the new NPCs, it's not that i dislike, I just don't feel anything for them. I've actually played with all of them and I'll have to admit that i like Rasaad, he was the closest to the original in my opinion. What i did like a lot about BG:EE was the improved AI, GUI and all the small improvements and tweaks, it was still like the game i fell in love with so long ago, just a bit improved and made easier to install.

BG2:EE came out a bit later and i was really looking forward to it, not so much for the added content, more for the amazing AI/GUI improvement we had seen in BG:EE. Beamdog did not disappoint and i was finally able to play an improved version of two of my favorite games.

So at this point what had been added to the game was the following : Improved AI/GUI, new NPCs and a few new classes. Nothing of this stood out very much, and it was still the game i had fallen in love with so long ago, just improved. Life was good for me and then Beamdog dropped IWD:EE and i was in love again. They took IWD:EE and added the improvements from BG:EE along with throwing in a few new kits, I was SOLD! I gained a lot of faith in Beamdog with IWD:EE and in my opinion it has no flaws, it's better than the original in almost every possible way.

When we heard about adventure Y and then later on SoD i was really excited, went over to my brother to bang on his door, screaming "They are making a Baldur's Gate sequel! We finally get to experience how we ended up in that cage!". My brother wasn't nearly as excited as me, but that didn't matter, I could have entered a meeting for depressed people and cured them instantly (joke, no touchy feelings), I was radiating like that solar in ToB and nothing could bring me down.

After quite some time, a few pictures came out of SoD and I was a bit like "Whaat...?". While I was amazed at the improved graphics and the interesting and refined GUI, I couldn't help but to notice a lot of things (small and big) that were new, and they were many. We're actually getting a new class and not just a kit, HP bar above our names (which can be turned of, but still) and many other changes. Well i ended up shrugging my shoulders and thinking "Ah well, It's just SoD" but then there was a quote from somewhere that said something like "We'll tune up the early BG2:EE to make the level jump from SoD (12) feel less severe" and It struck me that this isn't just SoD anymore. We also got information that the Improvements from SoD will be patched later on into BG:EE and BG2:EE. Now recently there have been talking about introducing the SoD NPCs into BG2:EE if 'SoD sells well' (this is a rumor so far). I understand that SoD is a completely new game and they have to make changes for it to sell, but with the connection between the games you'll have the inevitable - changes made to SoD, will most likely end up in the other games too, so they aren't just making SoD a brand new game, they are changing BG:EE and BG2:EE even more.

So there I was, sitting down and pondering what does this mean for my beloved games. I was a bit frustrated and a lot of confused, it didn't help that people were making threads about getting the IWD:EE spells into BG2 to improve the druid and cleric, making even more changes.

Here comes the part where I am certain that I'm in the minority, I don't want all these new things. For me BG:EE, BG2:EE and IWD:EE is a wonderful remake of the game, but still at core the same game. I'm feeling now that there are plans of adding too many things to the game and it's getting to the point where I feel like someone should say "Stop!", more is not always better. This leads me to another question, when will it stop? Will beamdog keep adding more stuff to the game and update it, or will they accept that they have done the improvements needed and not have the game stray too far away from the original. It doesn't help my anxious mind that there are talks about a real expansion for BG2:EE. I'm not against this at all, I would love to get more content to BG2:EE, but I'm worried about what new changes there will be, and certain things they add that is wanted today in the gaming market (HP bar) might actually contaminate the original game. / From what I've heard the HP bar is a thing you can toggle on and off, which is great, but I'm certain there are many new features you can't do the same with, or the options menu will require a field manual.

I don't want this to come of as Doom 'n gloom, and it might not be like I'm thinking, once it gets released. But right now the way I'm looking at it, even if I don't buy SoD (which i will) my games (BG:EE, BG2:EE) will still be changed with the upcoming patch. It's gotten to the point now where I feel that Beamdog has done what they can with BG:EE and BG2:EE, and they should put all this energy into another game (that I'll most certainly buy). Worst case scenario i can see myself on purpose install and play one of the earlier versions of BG:EE/BG2:EE.

I would like to stress that this is the way I'm feeling, it's my opinion, you might not agree with it but that doesn't change the way I feel about it. Feel free to add things if you want, but do it in a civil tone please.

PS... MAKE ARCANUM PLEASE!

JuliusBorisov

I understand your concerns, @SionIV . This is why I was A LOT relieved when I found out that HP things showing on the characters can be disabled in the options. And then I realized that maybe it is the only way possible: make as many things toggleable as possible.

This forums shows that there can always be two people with different opinions on any matter. There's a phrase that you can't please anyone. But I'm sure that if many things are optional, i.e. you can change them either in the game options or in the baldur.ini file, it'll be fine.

Ranger/Cleric not getting all druid spells? You can change it, if you like.

HPs are shown graphically on your characters? You can change it, if you like.

Sneak attacks instead of backstabs? You can change it, if you like.

I think this is the only way.

So maybe we'll have one day BGEE and BG2EE where we can have a toggle between IWDish/BGish approach to spells.

SionIV

bengoshi said:

I understand your concerns, @SionIV . This is why I was A LOT relieved when I found out that HP things showing on the characters can be disabled in the options. And then I realized that maybe it is the only way possible: make as many things toggleable as possible.

This forums shows that there can always be two people with different opinions on any matter. There's a phrase that you can't please anyone. But I'm sure that if many things are optional, i.e. you can change them either in the game options or in the baldur.ini file, it'll be fine.

Ranger/Cleric not getting all druid spells? You can change it, if you like.

HPs are shown graphically on your characters? You can change it, if you like.

Sneak attacks instead of backstabs? You can change it, if you like.

I think this is the only way.

So maybe we'll have one day BGEE and BG2EE where we can have a toggle between IWDish/BGish approach to spells.

I just find it sad because i used to tell people to start with BG:EE instead of the original, and if this keeps up then i'll have to change that and tell them to get the original first, to experience the game the way it was intended, and then give the modified version (BG:EE) a try.

But you're right, can't please everyone, and I'm sure that I'm in the minority here

cmorgan

You are not alone, @SionIV, but... this has been the toughest part of the equation ever since Weimer started messing about with hex-editing BG.


tl;dr - Telling folks to play BG is sharing a great experience you had. I think telling them whether to play BG opr BG:EE doesn't matter as much as getting them involved in the story.


[blabbing long response because I am procrastinating instead of doing what I am supposed to be doing]

Folks have felt really strongly about this before:

-Weimer adding Solaufein to the mix (then Valen) - not the Canonical, but real NPCs.
-Baldurdash (less so because some of the original dev team were involved, but even Gaider's name was not enough to allow it to pass without complaint)
-Text fixes vs text fixes vs text fixes - a constant, solid "don't change the words I know and love".
-Baldurdash vs G3 Fixpack vs No-Community-Fixes-Everyone-Make-Thier-Own
-Tutu (less controversial, but still lots of worry about what had to be changed to make it fit, what didn't, and what might be lost). To a dramatically lesser extent, EasyTutu.
-BGT - especially the "tie the two games together with going back to the Duuke" materials.
-The maturation of the ability to add Romance/Friendship mods allowing many many extra characters into the game, many of whom are not FR canon, let alone BG canon.
-The development of the concept of "MegaModding", where a user can dump almost every mod in existence on BG, without understanding that this is not Tamriel - many of the mods were never designed to work togther, and offer contradictory stories and approaches that turn the entire BG/BG2 experience intop a chaotic and confused mishmash of partial stories.
-The development of BG:EE
-The development of BG2:EE

Each time, folks have sided with whatever matches their most enjoyable aspect of the game, or their best memories. For some, NPC mods having dialog is waste of time, and an imposition on a good strategy and tactics game, as the original NPCs are plenty. For others, opening up the game so that you can play from beginning to end with the same NPCs [mod or not; BGT, EET] is a natural evolution that doesn't change the experience. And opposite sides are instantly drawn by folks who enjoyed their experience.

I can even proffer a personal example - I like BG/BG2 because I have a great story, and I can selectively add small numbers of mods that tailor aspects of the story to modify it to my tastes. The BiG World and MegaMod folks came along, adding hundreds of mods that I had studied for years, and had realized were (mostly) absoultely *horrible* in their coding, things that directly contradicted lore of some sort or other, or were "joke" mods, and I thought to myself "this is the end of the road. people are going to unknowingly load up tons of crap on their game, covering a great story, and turning people off of the game. No one reads readmes. The End Is Nigh.". Of course, just like every other person who has faced this thought, it turns out I was wrong. Instead of driving folks off, it has brought folks in - folks who look at code with fresh eyes and fix things in mods the community abandoned as "impossible" years ago. Mods that may not be to my taste, but are awesome in someone else's eyes. And a fresh look at the ways of explaining to players that "dependencies" can be both technical and story - adding three Branwen mods acan be shown to a player and explained in the installer in a way the old "My ReadMe Says Don't Add This Other Branwen Because It Breaks My Stuff" never could.

I take heart at this. No matter what happens, the game story itself has kept rolling along with the changes, even in the face of mods that rip entire sections out of the storyline and replace them with fan-made materials. I think that as long as there is some way to re-create the original conditions (with less bugs), the story will continue to attract people. I think the way the story is told may change slightly with each of these things, but it already has... so for the purist, I say your idea is right. If it still can be found anywhere, telling someone to try playing the original BG is it existed in the beginning is not a problem, in the same way a car afficianado should experience a Model T, or a brass musician should try a baroque instrument. The player will be hooked enough by the story told that they will give the newer incarnations a shot, and once they do, they will have a great deal of replayability.

So, from my point of view, tell them what you enjoyed about BG, and let them worry about BG vs BG:EE. Eventually, they will get hooked enough to play both. That's why some of us are crazy enough to continue to develop mods on this game

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

shawne

The key thing to remember here is that, long before the EEs, the BG games were a lot more flexible than most, thanks to the modding community. There's no one uniform experience everyone had that can serve as a template - a lot of people consider Ascension or BG1NPC mandatory/canon, others swear by Redemption/The Longer Road or Wheels of Prophecy, and that's not even getting into popular NPC mods. The EEs are just another version of the game, so in the end, it doesn't really matter what Beamdog does with it. You can play it or ignore it, BG is still what you make it.

SionIV

The problem here is that when it came to the original game, people made the CHOICE to add mods to their game. BG:EE here is the 'original game' (they sell it as a game, not a mod), and they are changing the original game, forcing people to play with an older version of the game.

No game should ever force people to downgrade their version.

Baldur's Gate - Original game
Mods - Added things to the game.
BG:EE - Original game.
BG.EE 1.4 - Added things to the game.

And before you mention game patches, game patches don't ADD things constantly, they fix things that aren't there, are wrong, or should be there.

shawne

They're not "forcing" anyone to do anything, though. You can't have the cake and eat it too: the EEs are Beamdog's version of BG, with all the changes and modifications that that implies. And no one is obligated to buy/play them if they don't want to - the trade-off being that yes, you're going to need the older version. It's a question of what you value more, your choice of modifications or whatever mechanical upgrades Beamdog have made.

CaloNord

Might be important to consider mods can work both ways as well. If Beamdog added something people really didn't like they could probably remove it, really depends what they did that people hated.

Personally I don't mind what they do. I run with so many mods I can barely remember what vanilla BG played like. I've made quite a few mods to tweak things the way I want them as well. People are free to choose between the two. Frankly I think all the extra updates, better performance and wide support make the few tweaks and additions Beamdog have made worth it. I couldn't even get the original BG1 to run on Windows 10.

Dee

shawne said:

They're not "forcing" anyone to do anything, though. You can't have the cake and eat it too: the EEs are Beamdog's version of BG, with all the changes and modifications that that implies. And no one is obligated to buy/play them if they don't want to - the trade-off being that yes, you're going to need the older version. It's a question of what you value more, your choice of modifications or whatever mechanical upgrades Beamdog have made.

I never understood this idiom. Why would I want the cake in the first place if I can't eat it? And why does it have to be a cake? What if I'd rather have pie?

SionIV

To put it simple. I can see myself in a soon future go back to the BG instead of the EE games, because i feel they are getting too far away from the original game. We're getting to a point where it isn't a remake, it's instead a different view and path the game takes.

shawne

SionIV said:

To put it simple. I can see myself in a soon future go back to the BG instead of the EE games, because i feel they are getting too far away from the original game. We're getting to a point where it isn't a remake, it's instead a different view and path the game takes.

And that's fine. The originals are still there, Beamdog isn't taking them away. If the changes they're making are a step too far for you, you always have the choice of going back.

argent77

Personally, I appreciate Beamdog's effort to improve the games, both from a technical perspective as well as content-wise. Many of the technical improvements can be tweaked in the options menu or more directly in the baldur.ini. Even content-related changes can be reverted or disabled by mods if you want to.
Actually, I've put together a simple mod for me that disables (a selected few of) the new EE NPCs and it works fine. I'm pretty certain that you could revert all of the content changes to the level of the original games (including new kits and other stuff) if you put enough effort into it.

SionIV

argent77 said:

Personally, I appreciate Beamdog's effort to improve the games, both from a technical perspective as well as content-wise. Many of the technical improvements can be tweaked in the options menu or more directly in the baldur.ini. Even content-related changes can be reverted or disabled by mods if you want to.
Actually, I've put together a simple mod for me that disables (a selected few of) the new EE NPCs and it works fine. I'm pretty certain that you could revert all of the content changes to the level of the original games (including new kits and other stuff) if you put enough effort into it.

I agree, but wasn't one of the selling points of BG:EE that you didn't have to change your game or mod it? You could just install it and play? Right now I'm going to have to change just as much in BG:EE if not even more than i did in BG.

I know I'm in a minority here and it's not going to cause any waves from one player leaving the game, just wanted to voice the reason for doing it, if it comes to that. Right now I'm just worried about the direction they are going and voicing that worry.

Dee

SionIV said:

argent77 said:

Personally, I appreciate Beamdog's effort to improve the games, both from a technical perspective as well as content-wise. Many of the technical improvements can be tweaked in the options menu or more directly in the baldur.ini. Even content-related changes can be reverted or disabled by mods if you want to.
Actually, I've put together a simple mod for me that disables (a selected few of) the new EE NPCs and it works fine. I'm pretty certain that you could revert all of the content changes to the level of the original games (including new kits and other stuff) if you put enough effort into it.

I agree, but wasn't one of the selling points of BG:EE that you didn't have to change your game or mod it? You could just install it and play? Right now I'm going to have to change just as much in BG:EE if not even more than i did in BG.

Just stepping in to say that Beamdog's mission was never to make mods obsolete. The selling point you refer to was that you don't have to install mods in order to fix the bugs and get widescreen support--in other words, mods are no longer necessary to make the game play well on a modern machine.

I see that point touted by a lot of people that don't like one enhancement or another. At no point did Beamdog say "We're going to make the game stable and never make it better." That would be silly.

SionIV

Dee said:

SionIV said:

argent77 said:

Personally, I appreciate Beamdog's effort to improve the games, both from a technical perspective as well as content-wise. Many of the technical improvements can be tweaked in the options menu or more directly in the baldur.ini. Even content-related changes can be reverted or disabled by mods if you want to.
Actually, I've put together a simple mod for me that disables (a selected few of) the new EE NPCs and it works fine. I'm pretty certain that you could revert all of the content changes to the level of the original games (including new kits and other stuff) if you put enough effort into it.

I agree, but wasn't one of the selling points of BG:EE that you didn't have to change your game or mod it? You could just install it and play? Right now I'm going to have to change just as much in BG:EE if not even more than i did in BG.

Just stepping in to say that Beamdog's mission was never to make mods obsolete. The selling point you refer to was that you don't have to install mods in order to fix the bugs and get widescreen support--in other words, mods are no longer necessary to make the game play well on a modern machine.

I see that point touted by a lot of people that don't like one enhancement or another. At no point did Beamdog say "We're going to make the game stable and never make it better." That would be silly.

If i had know that they would remake the game AND then go and remake it in their own image, turning it into what they think it should be like, then I wouldn't have bought it to begin with.

Dee

@SionIV Just a point of clarification: what enhancements don't you like? Is it just the new content? Or is it the influx of (optional!) new features mentioned in your first post?

Because the former was something that was pretty well advertised when the games were released; the latter is something that you can turn off if you decide you don't like it.

SionIV

Dee said:

@SionIV Just a point of clarification: what enhancements don't you like? Is it just the new content? Or is it the influx of (optional!) new features mentioned in your first post?

Because the former was something that was pretty well advertised when the games were released; the latter is something that you can turn off if you decide you don't like it.

Some of it is what is being planned with SoD. The change in BG2 because of SoD cap, looks like a completely new GUI, especially when it comes to the spell book menu (I don't like the new interface and spellbook).

Then we have the many rumors of what can happen, like the introduction of the SoD NPCs to BG2 ("If it sells well"), just the idea that it's possible makes me sick to my stomach, it's enough having Rasaad, Hexxat, Neera, Dorn, we don't need more bloat.

We also have people who want the IWD spells into BG:EE and while it might be nothing but wishes, the C/R actually got changed according to the IWD one, so it doesn't seem that far fetched.

And what the hell was going on with the C/R change? Everyone preach that you can change the INI file or mod your game to get it back, I ask why you removed it to start with? It's been part of the game for such a long time, even part of BG:EE for several years, and now it gets changed? Why couldn't people complaining about the C/R have changed THEIR INI or mod it to fix?

SoD is a completely new game and it's understandable that you have to aim for what is fancy and asked for today. But from what have been told, those changes will end up in BG:EE and BG2:EE as well.

Glam_Vrock

If they do bump up the difficulty of early BG2:EE, I'd hope it's only for those importing from SoD, otherwise those starting a new game would be overwhelmed.

The rest of this looks like a molehill mountain to me. New NPCs? Don't use 'em. New spells? Don't use 'em. Yeah, they could have done the Cleric/Ranger thing the other way round, but it was a bug and it only takes like five seconds to change it back.

shawne

Glam_Vrock said:

If they do bump up the difficulty of early BG2:EE, I'd hope it's only for those importing from SoD, otherwise those starting a new game would be overwhelmed.

Isn't that how level-scaling works? If you don't import from SoD, you'll have lower-level encounters in the early parts of BG2:EE.

Glam_Vrock

Well yeah. I'm only pointing it out because if it won't be an issue unless you import then it shouldn't affect BG2 purists.

DJKajuru

Well, I admit having a similar feeling , but I have learned to ignore what doesn't interest me - For example, currently I don't feel like having any of the EE NPC's in my SoA playthrough , no matter how cool the new content is. So I simply ignore them and play the game as I prefer.

FrozenCells

No sympathy. You have a version of the game that you're happy with and you want Beamdog to stamp it and move on to other stuff. So whatever they do or don't do has no effect on your game at this point as you can just stick to the version you like. The only consequence of your view is to deprive other people of potential benefit at no benefit to yourself. What's up with that?

SionIV

FrozenCells said:

No sympathy. You have a version of the game that you're happy with and you want Beamdog to stamp it and move on to other stuff. So whatever they do or don't do has no effect on your game at this point as you can just stick to the version you like. The only consequence of your view is to deprive other people of potential benefit at no benefit to yourself. What's up with that?

You're right, I'll just stick to the original games.

bob_veng

SionIV said:

To put it simple. I can see myself in a soon future go back to the BG instead of the EE games, because i feel they are getting too far away from the original game. We're getting to a point where it isn't a remake, it's instead a different view and path the game takes.

a remake would be recreating the game in a more modern engine. this is a rerelease with increased loudness and some bonus live tracks

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Dee

It's also a little silly to fix a bug and then disable the fix by default. There's no question that the Cleric/Ranger spell thing was a bug; it just happened to be a bug that a lot of people liked, which is why the option is there to restore it.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

argent77

subtledoctor said:

argent77 said:

Actually, I've put together a simple mod for me that disables (a selected few of) the new EE NPCs and it works fine. I'm pretty certain that you could revert all of the content changes to the level of the original games (including new kits and other stuff) if you put enough effort into it.

Release that mod!

Here you go: [MOD] Disable Enhanced Edition NPCs for BG:EE & BG2:EE

Cahir

@SionIV out of curiosity, what would you expect from Enhanced Edition of Baldur's Gate? A tuned graphics only? A fixpack included? Seems to me that vanilla games are perfectly suitable for your tastes. Enhanced edition should be enhanced not only buxfixed HD rerelease. But maybe that's me.

necaradan666

Sounds pretty much like what I wanted from an EE.

Updated engine, preferably the same one across all three games. The same spells/races/classes and kits across the games being available. I want all the bugfixes and the new GUI that looks and functions the same across all games, apart from their visuals. The new NPCs I would prefer to do without, they change the game too much for me and I wish I could turn them off for a more vanilla experience in the EE engine. Black Pits are fine since they are outside the game itself.

I definitely don't want to see new SoD NPCs somehow slotted into BG2EE, a level increase I can deal with but new content is going too far.