Cleric/Mage (25/20) vs Priest of Talos > Mage (15/27)???
Stormvessel
Member Posts: 654
I am aware that the general consensus is that cleric/mage characters are always better multi'd, especially when bringing the cleric/illusionist into the discussion. I have to admit that I am prejudiced against gnomes, and wouldn't want to live without horrid wilting, so I am more interested in discussing whether a vanilla cleric/mage multi truly beats out a cleric (PoT) > mage dual class.
I'm not convinced it does.
Divine spells at cap:
Cleric/Mage multi: 9999973
PoT>Mage dual: 6666421
Arcane spells at cap:
Cleric/Mage multi: 555554332
PoT>Mage dual: 555555544
So yes, the Cleric/Mage will have more spells overall, but by far, most of the extra spells are lower level divine spells that fail to impress. The Cleric>Mage gets twice as many level 9s an extra level 8, two extra level 7s, and an extra level 6.
The Cleric/Mage looks far better when it comes to divine spells, but this is what you give up:
1. PoT kit (Stormshield, Lighting bolt instant cast)
2. More HP. The PoT gets 8HD per level, the Mage/Cleric Multi gets 6HD!!!
3. More of the spells that actually matter (Arcane) and more Mage HLAs.
This is what the Cleric/Mage gets in return:
A few more divine spells and tons more low level divine spells that you won't even waste your time casting.
This is such a blowout in favor of PoT>Mage that I'm not entirely sure I wouldn't take it over the Cleric/Illusionist, either. Especially when you have to give of Horrid Wilting.
Am I missing something, here? The general consensus is that Cleric/Mage multi is better.
I just don't see it. Help me out.
Edit: Oh, and I forgot to mention, your ability score doesn't add to the number of arcane spells you get, but it DOES add to the number of divine spells. And there is 3 tomes in BG and Lum's Machine in BG2 that can give you outrageous wisdom.
So even when you give up the spells by dualing your cleric instead of going with a multi, you will be swimming in lower level spells. No way you will cast them all before you need to rest. A few extra high level divine spells can't be worth all that HP, arcane spells, and PoT abilities.
I'm not convinced it does.
Divine spells at cap:
Cleric/Mage multi: 9999973
PoT>Mage dual: 6666421
Arcane spells at cap:
Cleric/Mage multi: 555554332
PoT>Mage dual: 555555544
So yes, the Cleric/Mage will have more spells overall, but by far, most of the extra spells are lower level divine spells that fail to impress. The Cleric>Mage gets twice as many level 9s an extra level 8, two extra level 7s, and an extra level 6.
The Cleric/Mage looks far better when it comes to divine spells, but this is what you give up:
1. PoT kit (Stormshield, Lighting bolt instant cast)
2. More HP. The PoT gets 8HD per level, the Mage/Cleric Multi gets 6HD!!!
3. More of the spells that actually matter (Arcane) and more Mage HLAs.
This is what the Cleric/Mage gets in return:
A few more divine spells and tons more low level divine spells that you won't even waste your time casting.
This is such a blowout in favor of PoT>Mage that I'm not entirely sure I wouldn't take it over the Cleric/Illusionist, either. Especially when you have to give of Horrid Wilting.
Am I missing something, here? The general consensus is that Cleric/Mage multi is better.
I just don't see it. Help me out.
Edit: Oh, and I forgot to mention, your ability score doesn't add to the number of arcane spells you get, but it DOES add to the number of divine spells. And there is 3 tomes in BG and Lum's Machine in BG2 that can give you outrageous wisdom.
So even when you give up the spells by dualing your cleric instead of going with a multi, you will be swimming in lower level spells. No way you will cast them all before you need to rest. A few extra high level divine spells can't be worth all that HP, arcane spells, and PoT abilities.
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Comments
If you are going to dual then I'd recommend PoL as you can become a melee powerhouse with Boon and Polymorph Self or Shapechange.
The Downtime Problem
A CoT(15)->Mage takes 1.575 million XP to hit cleric level 15, and will require 2.25 million XP to recover its cleric levels. The build requires 3.825 million XP to come to fruition.
Put another way, a character will collect about 6 million XP over the course of the trilogy. A cleric dualed at 15 will therefore spend almost 40% of the entire saga as an underleveled mage.
Picture a Cleric/Mage and a Cleric of Talos->Mage at their best. Then cut 37.5% off of the dual-class. That is how they measure up.
The Spell Slots
Since most characters will never reach the 8 million XP cap, a Cleric of Talos dualed at 15 will probably end up at mage level 21 by the end of the series, not 27, and the Cleric/Mage will be at mage level 18, not 20. So the actual spell slot difference would be:
Divine spells:
Cleric/Mage multi: 9999862
CoT->Mage dual: 6666421
Arcane spells:
Cleric/Mage multi: 555553321
CoT->Mage dual: 555554332
It's a very meager advantage in arcane spellpower for the dual (which is completely negated if the multi is a gnome, which it really should be), and a very substantial advantage in divine spellpower for the multi. Also, bear in mind that this spell slot comparison only compares them at the very end of the saga, which is basically the only time at which the dual-class might arguably have an advantage in spell power.
My Opinion
For a small fraction of the game, the dual-class is slightly better than the multi-class.
For the vast majority of the game, the multi-class is significantly better than the dual-class.
Over the course of the game, the Cleric/Mage is going to be much more versatile and have many more options than the dual-class. The dual-class has an advantage in early BG1 thanks to its Lightning Bolt, and it has a (debatable) advantage at the Throne of Bhaal, but everywhere in between, the Cleric/Mage is going to have an easier time. And if the multi-class is a Cleric/Illusionist, it has a strong advantage at every stage of the game, not just the middle 80%. In BG1, it will have +5 to saves to match the dual's Lightning Bolt, and will basically always have many more mage spell slots than the dual-class.
I would recommend dualing at level 11, not 15. The dual-class would not be nearly as crippled that way.
In terms of power, the multi can load the high level cleric slots up with Devas as substitutes for the planetar and being a 'mere' 20 level mage isn't much of a handicap either. Since every high level mage is basically a god with an endless spell book through the use extra spell HLA's and spells like Wish and PI (this also makes me rule in favor of a half-elf as the multis race, the bonus spells don't matter much).
TLDR; Multi -> Dual.
Dual
1.575M Cleric
6.425M Mage (total 8M)
First HLA at 4.575M XP (combined)
5 HLA at 6.075M XP
7 HLA at 7M XP
8 HLA at 7.2M XP - All Mage
Multi
4M Cleric
4M Mage (total 8M)
First HLA at 3M XP - this can be a mage HLA (add'l 6th level spell)
Third HLA at 3.6M - these can all be mage HLA
4 HLA at 3.75M - 3M / 1C (one must be cleric at this point)
12 HLA at 6M - 5M / 7C (assumes you wait and get both cleric and mage levels at 6M)
15 HLA at 6.75M - All Mage HLA Selected / 7C
16 HLA at 7.2M - All Mage and All Cleric selected
So you get the same number of mage HLA but you get the last mage HLA with 450K less experience and you have all your cleric and mage as a multi-class by the time the dual class gets her last mage level.
However, if you wish to have a character that ALWAYS has the ability of both a mage and cleric at his command, right from the start to the end, multi is more fun.
Some may find the changing play style of a dual interesting, too. Like, you are a heavily armored tank with a heavy flail and towering shield for bg1, and come bg2 your main becomes a naked pansy that shoots magic missiles and uses wands. The change is interesting to keep gameplay refreshing for some people.
But I was a little surprised that none of you guys mentioned Stormshield or the much higher HP that the dualclass will have.
The Gnome Illusionist gives up Horrid Wilting so that kills it for me. IMHO, you can't properly powergame without Horrid Wilting x 3 for 60d8. That's freaking brutal, ESPECIALLY if you can find a way to get a Greater Malison laid down beforehand (hard to do but possible, especially if using two mages).
Lighting bold insta-cast w/ uncapped damage 3 times a day and Stormshield (which is OP) is great. Throw in a few extra arcane spells and the much higher HP and I think it's a winner.
Someone mentioned PoL dualed to mage would be better. I think that's crazy, no offense. Single class with insane strength using DuHM? And it stacks??? There is no doubt that PoL is better than PoT because the boon is so awesome. But on a mage? A mage don't need the boon as much as stormshield. This is obvious. The instacast Lighting Bold also goes much better with a mage. So for dualing to Mage I think someone would be nuts to choose PoL over PoT unless it's for alignment reasons.
There is no doubt that Cleric/Mage is very strong. But my whole point is that divine spells kinda suck. Even the high level ones are only semi-useful (with a few very powerful exceptions). As a mage, you really aren't going to be choosing to cast divine spells over arcane spells. It really comes into play with triggers and sequencers which the multi will be able to use more often no doubt.
I just don't think it's worth giving up a few extra high level mage spells, much more health, and the awesome stormshield and lighting bolt.
Finally, keep in mind that if you want to factor in downtime, then of course the cleric/mage is better. I am talking purely from a powergaming, multiple playthroughs/black pits runs perspective.
I agree that the higher HP is an important factor, but for what it's worth, the Cleric/Mage gets Mirror Image much earlier than the Cleric of Talos->Mage. Later in the saga, HP will become less relevant, and so the advantage will shrink when the Cleric of Talos finally does get Mirror Image.
I would not consider the loss of Horrid Wilting to be so serious for a gnomish Cleric/Illusionist, compared to a half-elven Cleric/Mage. I powergame all the time and haven't used a triple Horrid Wilting Chain Contingency in ages. I have found many uses for Chain Contingency besides that. It's a very versatile spell. I would consider the loss of Vampiric Touch to be more meaningful, as it depresses the gnome's HP relative to the half-elf.
I would disagree that a Cleric of Talos has an advantage over the Cleric of Lathander when dual-classing to mage. The Cleric of Talos' abilities--Storm Shield and Lighting Bolt--are made largely redundant by mage and cleric spells. Boon of Lathander, however, cannot be replicated, and allows the Cleric of Lathander->Mage to deal almost as much damage as a properly outfitted fighter. In fact, in ToB, the Cleric of Lathander->Mage is almost as strong in Iron Golem form as a Kensai is with the Flail of Ages +5 and Greater Whirlwind Attack. Only in early BG1, when we don't have alternatives to Storm Shield and Lightning Bolt, and we don't have the weapons to make optimal use of Boon of Lathander, does the Cleric of Talos hold the advantage. If you're talking about the late game only, multiple playthroughs or a black pits run, you should specify that in your post. Also, if we're only considering the late game, then the Cleric of Talos kit bonuses will be irrelevant: by then, we have stronger alternatives to Storm Shield when pre-buffing, and better options in-combat than Lightning Bolt.
If we're talking about the game as a whole, downtime cripples the level 15 dual.
If we're talking about the late game, the Cleric of Talos->Mage will not use its kit abilities in the first place--it will be using better spells.
But since I completed the saga with an half-elf cleric/mage years ago, this thread has given me an itch to give the class another go. I might just consider making a gnome C/I for a play through when SoD is released. Actually, the cleric has some of the stronger summoning spells. Animate dead at level 3 (!), Aerial servants and Deva's (gotta fill those lvl7 divine slots with something).
These spells all have a long duration and the summons are quite strong. And, since you get so many divine spell slots + WIS bonus, you can memorize a lot of them. Nothing like a legion of skellies, servants and Deva's hasted and under the guidance of a wizards eye swarming the enemy.
I stuck with my PoT, largely because the roll was so good and would take forever to replicate. Here is my plan:
After I run him through the first game his stats will be...
19
19
16
19
21
13
Then I will grind him through the black pits (BGEE) and get him to level 15 (cap removed). Then I will dual him and grind him up to level 8 (should take like three battles). Then I will start BGEE2. After Lum's Machine and the DoMT he will have insane Wisdom and spells galore. DuHM with 20 base strength (I do wish I had boon of lathander). Insta-cast lighting and chained Horrid Wilting with Edwin running up and dropping a greater malison beforehand on the harder battles. And plenty of HP thanks to a pure Cleric's HD.
MUHAHAHAHA!!!!
That's my plan, anyway. Thought I would share him with you guys since you've all been very helpful. I might have done a multi if I had it to over again but I will put in the time and make this guy a god.