Faldorn and Dread Wolves

elminster

This discussion was created from comments split from: How can Aerie be a cleric/mage being an elf?.

Sertorius

lunar said:

Faldorn can summon wolves

Not wolves, Dread Wolves, which are technically undead (not in BG though, afaik), evil and nasty creatures in general... a bit hard to explain that one, even for a Shadow Druid, from a lore point of view.

JuliusBorisov

Sertorius said:

lunar said:

Faldorn can summon wolves

Not wolves, Dread Wolves, which are technically undead (not in BG though, afaik), evil and nasty creatures in general... a bit hard to explain that one, even for a Shadow Druid, from a lore point of view.

According to @elminster, lore wise its an undead wolf but mechanically the game doesn't treat it as being undead.

They do however get the same ring as undead that renders them immune to Sleep, Stun, Hold, Charm, level drain and a whole host of other things but they are technically classified as being a monster (lore wise as I understand it they should be undead but I'm not sure why they aren't considered it).

https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/377489/#Comment_377489
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/482445/#Comment_482445

I can add that cold damage (for example, from the Varscona or a Wand of Frost) doesn't work on Dread Wolves.

Sertorius

It's not as much the what BG considers as what, but more the druids, shall we call it "strained", relationship with undead... you know, abominations, affront to nature, that sort of thing...

Now if Xzar could summon a Dread Wolf, that I could understand (though it would make him extremely overpowered at low level), but a druid doing it just seems wrong to me; there are so many other things it could have been in stead.

elminster

Totemic druids can summon a spirit wolf. So I don't think it being undead is itself an issue. It being a decaying, stinking, furless, wolf probably doesn't help its case. Still, the functional differences between it and the next available wolf (that makes sense) make it really the only option. A winter wolf wouldn't make sense so the next option would be a dire wolf - which lacks all the resistances, immunities, and improved saving throws that a dread wolf has. So I chalk this one up to Faldorn being willing to summon a single particularly terrifying undead wolf in order to drive off civilization.

Kurumi

Hmm.. some things from the Complete Druid's Handbook I want to throw in..

Turning Undead
No druid has the granted power to turn undead. Such creatures are not of the living world--the only world that concerns druids--so members of this class have no control over them.

A more common perversion of Nature is the undead. The fact that no druidic branch has the power to turn or control undead does not mean druids tolerate them. Rather, the druid's lack of power over the living dead reflects the absolute aversion this class has toward them. Things exist in a natural cycle: birth, growth, death, rebirth. The undead break this cycle--worse, they are the enemies of life.

Don't ever make a bet with a tiefling. - Planar proverb.

Sertorius

@elminster
So you see the spirit animals as undead? I have to admit that's the first time I hear that. To me there's a world of difference between necromantic constructs and spirits, which I think are closer related to dryads and the like.

Also, why wouldn't a winter wolf make sense? Lorewise, I would have an easier time explaining that, than a dread wolf.

Kurumi

elminster said:

Totemic druids can summon a spirit wolf.

Not in PnP.

Don't ever make a bet with a tiefling. - Planar proverb.

elminster

Sertorius said:

Also, why wouldn't a winter wolf make sense? Lorewise, I would have an easier time explaining that, than a dread wolf.

If her circle was based out of the mountains near Nashkel it would make sense. But not when its that far away. The dread wolf like I said has its own issues but given her willingness to go to extremes I have no problem with it. Frankly there are other creatures found in Cloakwood that would make more sense than any of these for her to be summoning. But that was a decision made by Bioware many years ago and I'm sure they had their reasons for it.

Kurumi said:

Not in PnP.

I never said they could summon spirit animals in PnP.

Anyways, this discussion is getting off topic. So I think a new thread is in order if you want to discuss this further.

Sertorius

Check her bio, she's from the spine of the world... would only be natural to expect to find winter wolves there

elminster

Fair enough. But I think that giving her a dread wolf she can summon is a lot more promoting towards the fact that she is not like Jaheira at all. Given the disdain that druids as a whole have for undead (as well as the shadow circles willingness to work with evil creatures secretly) this seems like an ability that Faldorn herself would have sought to acquire. Which frankly just adds to what little is said about her character.

Calmar

Sertorius said:

@elminster
So you see the spirit animals as undead? I have to admit that's the first time I hear that. To me there's a world of difference between necromantic constructs and spirits, which I think are closer related to dryads and the like.

In Celtic mythology (where we gain the core concept of the druid from), the borders between revenants, spirits, and faeries (and even deities) are actually *very* blurry. Probably the only undead a druid actually ought to despise are the mindless ones who are slaves to a magician.

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Sertorius

Calmar said:

Probably the only undead a druid actually ought to despise are the mindless ones who are slaves to a magician.

Meaning something like dread wolves then?

Calmar

Sertorius said:

Meaning something like dread wolves then?

I guess so. I was adressing the difference (or not) between spirits and undead in general. According to its 2E description (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/wolfdrea.php) the dread wolf is indeed an artificial necromantic creature and not one that arises on its own accord, like a ghost.

Grum

Look at it this way...

In BG2 Faldorn desecrates a druid grove by tying it directly to herself to increase her own power. This has the effect of directly harming the land. Something much worse than having an undead wolf as a pet.

I think her ability in BG1 just shows that she doesn't care about the sanctity of nature, and is willing to harm it to 'save' it. And by saving it, I mean increasing her own power so she can destroy her enemies.