Make it possible to select a kit for your second class when dual-classing.

Conphantus

When dual-classing, make it possible to select a kit for your second class. This should only be possible if you have not already selected a kit for your first class.

Kore

[edit] Oops, I didn't read the above post fully. This post doesn't have much input anymore.

It seems like it has the potential to be pretty OP. Kensai/Swashbuckler or Kensai/Assassin anyone? Can you imagine a x7 backstab on a Kensai/Assassin in full combat with assassination and kai (full damage on all hits) plus greater whirlwind and all the extra damage and thac0 that their kits come with? Not to mention that he would be wearing everything usually closed off to him since he'll have use any item as well as scrolls.

Thats 10 attacks per round, all of them doing full damage (which is very considerable) and then times that by 7. Ouch

Cadros

@Kore He does say that this would only be possible if your initial class was not a specialist kit.

Kore

My bad.

Cadros

You are forgiven.

Kore

On topic, I like the idea. Balance wise I can't see too much that would mess it about and more specialisation is cool.

Cadros

Yeah I also like the idea, it would make it easier to dip a few levels into fighter or whatever to get the weapon proficiencies you want, then pick a specialisation.

pacek

There is also precedent here: in bg1 you can dual to a specialist mage(the only "kits" available) but not bg2. I can't see a reason why an unkitted character shouldn't be allowed to dual to a kitted class when it works the other way around.

Dee

In a similar vein, what about multiclass characters? I think it would be nice to allow a multiclass character to choose a kit for one (and only one) of their classes, so that gnomes aren't the only ones who get to make that decision.

HeroicSpur

I'm supporting this one very strongly. It doesn't make sense to be to do it one way but not the other (Kit-plain class, but not plain class-kit). In fact if you think about it 'realistically', someone is more likely to start out as a generalist in their profession before becoming specialised (with a kit).

Also as some have suggested above it seems to be rules compliant in that certain plan-kit were already allowed.

smeagolheart

I'm supporting this one very strongly. It doesn't make sense to be to do it one way but not the other (Kit-plain class, but not plain class-kit). In fact if you think about it 'realistically', someone is more likely to start out as a generalist in their profession before becoming specialised (with a kit).

Also as some have suggested above it seems to be rules compliant in that certain plan-kit were already allowed.

Hmmm... imagine this: starting out general class but going on a quest and being awarded a kit.

Maybe a fighter who goes on a quest to kill a mage becomes an Wizard Slayer or a thief who goes on kill-for-hire contract quests and is awarded an assassin kit.

Me likey likey.

HeroicSpur

@smeagolheart: I think you've described prestige classes in a nutshell. The only problem is that that would require a substantial alteration to the existing rules (and radically overhaul character creation). I like the idea, but I think it's too big a change to realistically expect to be implemented in the EE.

sarevok57

i think that rule would be way over powered big time, because for thieves and clerics there would be nothing to give you the motivation to be pure kitted thieves or clerics, because what you could do it be a level 7 fighter then dual class into a swashbuckler, and have huge attacks pure round, to hit to damage, and still grow to level 39, same with clerics, you could be the same level 7 fighter than dual class to a priest of lathander and have the boon of lathander and be complete god mode again and grow to level 39, for that reason there would NEVER be a reason why you wouldnt have a cleric or a thief be pure EVER, they would be infinitely better with 7 levels of fighter then dual classed over with a thief/cleric kit, in fact a theif/ cleric with 7 levels of fighter are alrighty over whelmingly better than any normal thieft/cleric that can reach level 40, so making that only the pure thieves and clerics than can hit level 40 naturally gives it much better game balance, because other than that as i said, there would never ever be a meaning of having just a pure thief/ cleric, it would be a complete waste

Conphantus

There are already powerful classes for those who wishes to play one, kensai/mage for example. In addition, any player that chooses to dual-class with the current rules will probably end up with a character a lot more powerful than if the player had chosen not to. So why not allow the player to decide for itself what class they'd like to focus its kit on and to which degree they want to focus on the potential power of their chosen character? Baldurs Gate was never really well balanced when comparing different classes anyway, but that's fine by me, because it's a single player game and part of its charm. Adding more options to dual-classing might mean the addition of a few new powerful class combinations, but in my opinion it also adds to roleplaying, as you can choose to focus on exactly the kind of character you'd like to play. I bet there will still always be a lot of players that choose to play for example a single-classed druid even though it's not the best choise from a power-gaming point of view.

Conphantus

Speaking of which, from a roleplaying point of view, I'd also like it to be possible to have your choise of stronghold be based on your second class. If I for example play as a dual-classed fighter/druid I should be able to choose to either obtain the keep or the grove. When one stronghold is obtained, the other one is no longer available.

Zakeros

@Conphantus Educate me a bit, I never played dual-classed character - when you have, for example, Fighter dualed to Mage you can't hold both strongholds? I know when I ran Warrior / Mage / Thief I could have had all three strongholds. Maybe it was due to many mods installed?

AndreaColombo

@Zakeros

IIRC, in vanilla BG2 you can only have one stronghold at a time, and that is the stronghold relevant to your first class. The mod BG2 Tweak pack has a component that enables you to get multiple strongholds.

smeagolheart

... you could be the same level 7 fighter than dual class to a priest of lathander and have the boon of lathander and be complete god mode again...

@sarevok57 Wouldn't a half-orc multiclass fighter/cleric be stronger than the human dualed fighter/cleric of Lathander anyway due to being able to pick HLAs from both fighter and cleric tables and getting more HLAs?? A high level multiclassed greater whirlwinding ftr/cleric can wipe the floor with the dual classed fighter/priest of lathander's boon of lathander. Dual seems weaker than multi to me.

sarevok57

@smeagolheart the half-orc fighter/cleric has waaaaaaaaaaaaay less HP and spells than a level 7 human fighter dual classing over to cleric, and you cant be a level 7 fighter and dual class over to a priest of lathander, now if you wanted you could be a priest of lathander first than dual over to a figther, you would lose some HP and some amazing HLA spells, but i guess you would then have the option for whirlwind and hardiness

smeagolheart

@sarevok57 Right we aren't discussing how it is now, we were talking about the suggested change to allow dualing into a kit, you mentioned ftr then priest of lathander would be OP. I suggested they wouldn't be because they would not get warrior HLAs.

HeroicSpur

@sarveok57: In addition to what others have said, remember there is a level cap in BG. Thinking about it as a whole up to ToB, then dual class characters are always going to have an edge. But in BG1 you can only get up to about level 9 as a fighter. If you wanted to dual-class therefore (from level 7) you would be severely handicapping yourself for the later stages of BG1.

sarevok57

@smeagolheart
whats more powerful: level 7 beserker/ level 39 cleric or level 7 fighter/ level 39 priest of lathander? and plus if you could choose a kit for your second class, what is to stop you from being a level 7 beserker dual classing into a priest of lathander?

smeagolheart

I think level 7 beserker/ level 39 cleric, no? Also, we are talking about a game mechanic that would only allow one kit. So if you dualed a vanilla class you could dual into a kit. The engine would prevent dualing into a kit if you already had a kit on your first class.

sarevok57

i guess if it still only ables you to have one kit that should be okay, but then that makes it uncontestedly better to be a level 7 fighter dual classed into a level 31 conjurer, than just being a level 7 fighter dual classed into a level 31 mage, i think what wrecks this, is that its so effect to have 7 fighter levels, and since there is no difference from level 39-40 for thieves and clerics ( at least no noticeable change the fate of the world differences) it would really benifit from doing it that way, because 10 times out of 10 i would always rather have a level 7 fighter/ level 39 swashbuckler, over a level 7 beserker/ level 39 thief, that 39 levels of swashbuckler with 7 levels of fighter would just clean house, with massive to hit/ to damage/ and AC and this swashbuckler will now have very good HP ( and HP being pretty much the swashbucklers only disadvanage; not being able to backstab? pfeh who cares when you attack 3-5 attacks per round dealing 30 damage a hit) so i think just for that reason kits should only be able to stay for the first class, because to many kit classes would benifit from this effect since they can hit max level way before the XP cap ( except for mages, but you could theoritically have a level 7 fighter/ level 31 conjurer and who in their wrong mind wouldnt do that? there would be absolutely 0 benifit from having a full bread level 31 conjurer over a level 7 fighter/ level 31 conjurer) now if somehow it was made so the 2nd class couldnt hit that high of a level then it could be more effective, for example; in BG 1 you can dual class into a specialist mage, so i would have a level 7 fighter dual class over into an illusionist, but that illusionist would only grow to level 8, so now he misses out on level 5 spells, but his combat ability/ HP are amazing for a level 8 mage, so if they could pull something off like that, to make it so there was acutally a point in having a full bread class over 2nd class kit and give it some sort of disadvantage, then i would say it would be A okay PS: sorry for the novel

sarevok57

plus i would also like to note that dual classing already is increadibly powerful if you know what you are doing, there is in no way jose under and circumstance to have just a normal vanilla level 40 cleric or level 40 thief, you can drop 1 level of cleric or thief for 7 levels of fighter and have more HP/ to hit/ to damage/ attacks per round and be infinitely better, and i think after all my novel nonsense i think this is what im really getting at, because then you could be SO MUCH more powerful if that dual classes with kitted into a swash buckler or priest of lathander for example, hell you wouldnt even need fighter typle melee characters, if you could just level 7 fighter than dual class over to a swashbuckler, you could still use any fighter weapon, use any fighter armor and kick ass AC/ to hit/ to damage and all that good stuff for 39 less HP at level 39, but that is just my opinion, i guess if i really dont feel for it i wouldnt have to do it, but im one of those people that, if its there, why not take advantage of it yes?

smeagolheart

7 ftr/swashbuckler would be way better than pure fighter. Don't they not get whirlwinds though unless you load Rogue Rebalancing? 5*30 < 10*20 although you could cast improved haste yourself from a scroll I guess (or from a mage) and hope it doesn't get dispelled. Other classes such as ftr/priest of lathander I'm not as in love with. Wouldn't a berserker cleric be more "ready for anything" with his defensive rages that provide immunities to nasty effects the Ftr/POL wouldn't have access to? Can always nerf a single kits dual classing capabilities if needed but most combos aren't that OP, no?

sarevok57

@smeagolheart ring of gaxx gives you improved haste 3 times a day, so no spell needed, plus the boon of lathander, gives you +1 to hit/ to damage/ ATTACK PER ROUND/ immunity to level drain, and that extra attack per round is huge especially if you use righteous magic and have 25 str, dealing an extra 25-30 damage every round is pretty big and plus that boon of lathander stacks with improved haste

Dee

I don't know that your argument holds much water, sarevok57. A Priest of Lathander 7/Fighter 39 would be just as capable of using the Boon of Lathander as a straight-up level 39 Priest of Lathander.

All that this does is enable a player to use a non-kitted class, then decide later to use a kit when dual-classing.

sarevok57

that normal level 39 priest of lathander would only have 2 attacks per round with boon of lathander while a level 7 fighter/ level 39 priest of lathander would have 3 attacks per round with boon of lathander, and with improved haste that would give him 6 attacks per round over 4 attacks per round

Dee

Well, okay.

But a level 7 Lathander Priest / Level 39 Fighter can do the same thing. In fact, he can do it better, because he'll have more attacks per round, plus Greater Whirlwind. I'm still not buying that the second-class kit is all that much more potent.

sarevok57

level 7 pol/ level 39 fighter isnt a very effective cleric though, and allowing the 2nd class to be a kit, makes more oppurtunities to make AMAZING thieves and clerics ( when i mean amazing i mean clerics and thieves being used for actually that, being a useful cleric or a useful thief) if you could kit the second class, who would ever be a level 40 assasian when a level 13 figther/ level 39 assasain is infinitely better in every way? you lose one thief high class ability to kick amazing butt in absolutely everything else? ( to hit/ to damage/ attacks per round/ HP) imagine a level 13 figther/ level 39 assasain with x7 backstab 3 or 4 attacks per round using the assanination ability? 100 damage a hit, with improved haste for 6-8 attacks per round, chop suey, i think things like that is the reason why they didnt make it so you could kit the 2nd class