Skip to content

DPS once melee starts - F/T vs Swash vs Stalker ?

All three of these classes interest me F/T, Swashbuckler, and Stalker. I'll be starting in BGEE1 but want to take the same char over to bg2.
(If I take a stalker, I'd take along another thief in my party, debatable if I would with Swaash, since backstab isn't necessary.)

What I'm interested in knowing is, after I open up a fight with a backstab and/or traps, and fighting breaks out which combo will bust the most heads? Assuming I have a tank taking most of the damage and I'm just flanking.

I'm interested in initiating a fight with backstab and or some traps but I'm not interested in the moderately challenging fights with running away/hiding and repeating. (For tough fights I won't mind but for your average ones I'll be too lazy.) This is why I want a class that does some nice DPS, so I'm curious which of the above by mid/late game would excel in that area.

Thanks

Comments

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Swashie can't backstab. As for the question I think FT and stalker are abt equal while swashie loses due to lack of Apr.
    joluvsemiticgoddessJuliusBorisov
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    F/T is much stronger and more useful than Stalker in general, but if we're only talking about straight-up melee offense...

    Compared to F/T, Stalker benefits from faster level progression and free pips in dual-wielding, so you'll do a bit more damage a bit sooner. On the other hand, F/T can start with 19 STR as a Half-Orc.
    semiticgoddessJuliusBorisovYamcha
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    By mid-late BG2, Stalker will be reaching base THAC0 of 0. F/T will eventually get there too, but probably in ToB by then. Swashie will never quite get to a base THAC0 of 0, although the Swashie bonuses will get him nearly there by the end of ToB.

    Stalker and F/T have unrestricted weapon choice throughout (although can still only backstab with normal Thief weapons), whereas Swashie has restricted choice until getting UAI (i.e. probably around end-SoA), and even then the Swashie can't be proficient in the other weapons. Some of the most damaging main-hand weapons are mostly not options for the Swashie ... but on the other hand, his Swashie bonuses eventually mean that he can hit even harder with his generally-lighter weapons than a warrior with a heavier weapon, although it'll be fairly late-game before those bonuses really stack up.

    Stalker and F/T have a strong APR advantage because they get extra APR for warrior levels (i.e. 1/2 APR at level 7, another 1/2 APR at level 13), which the Swashie doesn't get, and another extra 1/2 APR for Specialisation in their weapons, which again the Swashie doesn't get.

    F/T and Swashie are helped in ToB by being able to use the only speed-weapon which still hits much (i.e. the Scarlet Ninja-To), when Belm and Kundane are rather obsolete (being only +2). On the other hand, F/T and Stalker are helped in ToB by access to the full range of warrior HLAs, whereas Swashie gets only the Whirlwind Attacks from the warrior pool (although indeed that's the one he really needs, so he isn't at a huge disadvantage).

    Over the whole course of the game, I reckon Stalker has a clear advantage in DPS by faster levelling than the F/T and better THAC0 and APR than the Swashie.

    By late-game, I reckon it's a much closer call. All three will be very effective in the end, but perhaps the F/T then about even with the Stalker (or a fraction ahead if using SN-T), and the Swashie catching up fast but probably still slightly behind.

    Of course that's only considering DPS, which is what the question was about. Adding in other considerations (such as Thief skills) would change the overall balance of advantage.
    JuliusBorisovBlackraven[Deleted User]FinnTheHuman
  • rickcrrickcr Member Posts: 77
    Good stuff Gallowglass. I just have to decide if I want to carry around a thief with my party (if I go with a Stalker) or stick to my half orc F/T that can eventually have enough skills to take over being the primary thief and serve as a secondary melee DPS role.

    The reason I was thinking of switching away from the F/T and maybe sticking with a stalker is I look at open chests and detecting traps just a necessary evil, not something I really 'enjoy' so I don't care that much about having my main doing it. That leaves with me backstab and trap as enjoyable parts of the class.
    Now, having both backstab AND traps is cool, but for so many fights that are relatively simple I don't even bother with either so it's fun for me having my main getting the credit for dealing a lot of damage in the fray. (Maybe my thoughts will change once I'm into BG2?)

    I'm thinking I could deal with giving up one of them for possibly a stronger melee character. My half orc F/T has 19 STR though so not sure how that factors in DPS relative to the Stalker. I think that the Stalker will level up faster could play the biggest role... however once my F/T gets up a bit in levels it means I won't need to carry the extra thief in the party meaning more XP to go around so that could also balance the leveling issue out a bit.
    semiticgoddess
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @rickcr Ultimately the FT will be most powerful thanks to twin HLA pool. Mid-game @Gallowglass might have a point the stalker has the edge with about 2-3 level advantage.
    semiticgoddessJuliusBorisov
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211

    F/T and Swashie are helped in ToB by being able to use the only speed-weapon which still hits much (i.e. the Scarlet Ninja-To), when Belm and Kundane are rather obsolete (being only +2).

    I see this put forward often, but it's actually MUCH less of a deal than you'd think. Your OH attacks are at most 20% of your swings, and an extra +1 is not going to make much of a dent. There are also very few enemies that need +3 to hit but not +4, as several ToB bosses do, in the first place.

    That being said, the BIG boon of SNT is simply the fact that it's ANOTHER +APR weapon. Having 3 instead of 2 in your party is a very nice addition to overall damage output. Of course, depending on party size and composition that, too, may not be a big deal.

    As for the F/T vs. Swash vs. Stalker debate, it mostly depends on where you put your focus. Certainly Stalkers will be better during early game (BG1, early BG2), but they will lose value relative to the other two as you move into higher levels. Once HLAs kick in, Stalker can't compete - but of course, the game is not just about the last third or whatever. Early game does matter, and in many respects may even be more of a challenge than late game.

    Personally, I'd go with F/T > Swash > Stalker, mostly because I don't like BG1 and don't really care for Druid spells at all. But that is a biased, personal ranking. You would not lose out by any significant margin if you went with the complete opposite, or something else entirely.

    Side Note: A personal favorite of mine is something not mentioned here: the Swashbuckler -> Fighter dual class. It's essentially used as a fighter that can pick locks/find traps, and has some minor damage bonuses. For me, it combines the convenience of having a thief with the power of a full fighter output (Grandmastery) and is much more preferred than an actual Rogue (mostly because I consider Spike Traps cheese and don't use them, but that's a completely personal choice).

    Side Note II: For those into "creative" character modifications, try Fighter->Swashbuckler dual. Hilarious times ensue. Be warned though, this will MURDER things like you wouldn't believe.
    FinneousPJ
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    If we're getting holistic, then being able to wear full plate during BG1 shouldn't be overlooked.
    semiticgoddessJuliusBorisov
  • rickcrrickcr Member Posts: 77
    That is an interesting one Swashbuckler -> Fighter ... haven't seen that one mentioned often. When would you dual to F on that build?
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I remember doing some math and finding that, in BG2, a Fighter/Thief has slightly better THAC0 and DPS than a Swashbuckler at the cost of some skill points, assuming you backstab. Stalker trades even more thief skills for even better THAC0, plus dual-wielding. The best thief is the Swashbuckler, the best damage dealer is the Stalker, and the Fighter/Thief is in between.

    The Fighter/Thief will be the best tank, thanks to metal armor. In late BG2, the Fighter/Thief will also have the most HLAs, and can choose both thief and fighter HLAs. At any stage in the game, a halfling, dwarf, or gnome FT or Swashbuckler would have superior saving throws, while the Stalker would have the most HP.

    Also note that a Swashbuckler can't side with Bodhi in BG2, which means you have to fight vampires instead of thieves in Chapter 3.
    GallowglassJuliusBorisov[Deleted User]
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    rickcr said:

    That is an interesting one Swashbuckler -> Fighter ... haven't seen that one mentioned often. When would you dual to F on that build?

    I'm going for Sw11->F. (I've got this build rolled up and planned out, but haven't played it yet.)

    That's just enough Swashie to get you the third +1 AC bonus and the third use of Set Traps, and at the previous level you got the second +1 THAC0 bonus, and it's the last Thief "quick" level before level progression slows down to 220k per level, and it's the highest level at which your dual will still lose only one Fighter level at the end of the game (which is also a proficiency point).

    With Sw11, you've got enough Thief skill points to get 3 skills (or even 4, depending upon which ones you choose) up to full functionality, which is plenty to be either your sole Thief (if you include Find Traps and Open Locks) or to provide good coverage of the additional Thief skills if you have someone else (e.g. Imoen) covering Find Traps and Open Locks. (I'm planning to take Imoen, so my Sw11->F will be built to Set Traps, Detect Illusions and Pick Pockets ... and that party will also include Valygar for BG2ee, who can do stealth and back-stabbing, so I'll eventually have every Thief skill available at an adequate level, even without a continuing Thief.)

    Of course he's going to be a little light on HP for a front-liner, but his +3 AC bonus will help cut his injury rate, and with careful play I reckon he'll be fine - I very rarely find that I actually need all the HP that some front-liners carry. Well, I'll find out for sure when I get around to playing him!
    FinneousPJ
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486


    I'm going for Sw11->F. (I've got this build rolled up and planned out, but haven't played it yet.)

    That's just enough Swashie to get you the third +1 AC bonus and the third use of Set Traps, and at the previous level you got the second +1 THAC0 bonus, and it's the last Thief "quick" level before level progression slows down to 220k per level, and it's the highest level at which your dual will still lose only one Fighter level at the end of the game (which is also a proficiency point).

    Hey @Gallowglass, compliments on your fine contributions to this thread. One thing I'd like to point out is that Swashies receive their AC bonuses at levels 5, 10, 15 etc. plus one innate AC bonus at character creation. In other words, you needn't wait till level 11 to dual to Fighter for the 3rd AC bonus. Having said that, I agree there are other advantages at level 11, like you said (extra trap, it's the last level that doesn't require 220,000 XP, and you get another 25 skill points to distribute), so it might still be desirable for you to dual at level 11.
    JuliusBorisovsemiticgoddess
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356

    Hey @Gallowglass, compliments on your fine contributions to this thread.

    Thanks! :)

    One thing I'd like to point out is that Swashies receive their AC bonuses at levels 5, 10, 15 etc. plus one innate AC bonus at character creation. In other words, you needn't wait till level 11 to dual to Fighter for the 3rd AC bonus.

    Arghh, yes, sorry, I think I was getting it mixed up in my head with the Traps progression. (It's been a couple of years since I last played as a Swashie!) Thanks for that, and I stand corrected.

    That'd make dualling at level 10 a more plausible option. Nevertheless, given the other advantages of waiting one more level, and given that it's only 60k xp more (which is quite cheap at that stage of the game - should be almost there by the end of Irenicus's dungeon ... although how it'll work out in SoD obviously remains to be seen), I still think level 11 is probably the perfect time for this dual.
    Blackraven
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 614
    There's also Fighter (or kit) to Thief dual to take into consideration, which is probably more powerful than any of the other 3 options in terms of combat skill at the cost of utility (not having thief skills until you dual and then having to wait to get your fighter skills back). However you could do the dual very early (eg level 3 fighter in BG1) which will give you grandmastery, access to all weapons and armour and a HP boost at almost zero cost to your thief progression and utility. Naturally dualling at 7, 9 or 13 is much more powerful if you can stomach the loss of utility, but there is the option to dual early if you want it.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211

    That'd make dualling at level 10 a more plausible option. Nevertheless, given the other advantages of waiting one more level, and given that it's only 60k xp more (which is quite cheap at that stage of the game - should be almost there by the end of Irenicus's dungeon ... although how it'll work out in SoD obviously remains to be seen), I still think level 11 is probably the perfect time for this dual.

    Should add that the levels of the class you dual INTO are also a consideration. An extra fighter level to regain the thief will be 250,000xp extra, which can take quite a while even in mid SoA. While of course it doesn't matter in the long run (you'd get those levels anyway) it can end up delaying your first class regain considerably. Not necessarily a reason to change your plan, but something to keep in mind for sure.

    Personally, I usually dual Swashbuckler at 10. I don't care much for regular traps, and 25 thief points you usually can live without.

    As for other thief/fighter dual combinations, Kensai->Thief probably stands out the most. It can effectively get the Kensai bonuses "for free" by using UAI to negate the penalties completely, and rack up some nice damage that way. Whether it is better than F/T or indeed Sw->F is debatable, but in probably fairly close in any way.

    On that note, it should be pointed out that all these combos discussed here are indeed very close to each other in terms of game power. During most normal games, you will hardly notice any significant difference between them; but in games heavily modded towards difficulty, the subtleties can become more pronounced.
Sign In or Register to comment.