Yep, personal apocalypses happen everyday. Some get raptured instantly, some linger in pain for years. Death like birth is one of those personal yet shared universal experiences. It lurks out there in the subconscious demanding to be reconciled with rational experience and yet it can't. Death is also uniquely unfair in it's method and distribution. Read Brothers Karamazov for an excellent discussion on that matter. The idea of death produces cognitive dissonance in the human mind. Out of a sense of justice and a sense of envy we transform that personal universal experience into stories about collective reckonings in an attempt to bridge the gap between conscious and unconscious. But at the end of the day, we're all doomed indeed, the moment we set foot into the material world.
@Vonbek777, I have read Brothers Karamazov; just grand! But I don't believe life and death is unfair; it is what it is. Not all must suffer from delirium tremens.
So a child who dies in a horrible manner too awful to elaborate on is the equal of a 97 year old going peacefully in his sleep? It is what it is? Doesn't that call out for reconciliation?
So a child who dies in a horrible manner too awful to elaborate on is the equal of a 97 year old going peacefully in his sleep? It is what it is? Doesn't that call out for reconciliation?
depends heavily on your beliefs, i believe in God and His plan for all of man, and no matter what you believe, you only see the surface. The child that dies horribly may have an impact on hundreds or thousands or millions of lives. In the end, every relegion, even science, says that man is imperfect and limited. Until you understand the depth of what occurs, who are you or I to judge it?
Because I can judge it, I have a brain capable of judgments. We make best guesses everyday in order to survive without complete pictures. We do the same unconsciously. Teleology never settled with me, Kantian deontological ethics as an ideal did even if it doesn't hold up in real life interactions. Ends don't justify the means. Even in cosmological constructions, if this life of pain and suffering is simple preparation for the afterlife, then I must return the ticket:
"And so I hasten to give back my entrance ticket, and if I am an honest man I am bound to give it back as soon as possible. And that I am doing. It's not God that I don't accept, Alyosha, only I most respectfully return him the ticket."
ehhh, people think that this world is perfect, but people are flawed and imperfect. Even if you have something perfect, add a touch of imprefection, and the whole thing because imperfect. Perfection is absolute, once you fail, you can no longer achieve perfection.
We carry on despite the fact that we bring chaos to order and imperfection to perfection simply with our existence, yet we choose to blame others for our own failings. To say the world is messed up, and say that if there is a God, he's horrible, but if there is no God, then it's just the nature of things. We always choose to blame everyone but ourselves for the problems that we cause.
So life isn't perfect, but what good will moping do? Live and live well, love and love strongly, die and die without regrets. What more can you ask of this life, and if you believe in God or not, no matter your belief, if you live as you believe, and help those in need, defend the defenseless, and love the unlovable, then you will leave the world a better place for the next generation.
They'll still complain about it, like our generation does, and all the generations before ours, but that's life.
@Bjjorick, @Vonbek777, yes, it is what it is, for there is no absolute evil, actually, there is no evil in nature. Now how can God have a plan? Just think about the definition of God; omnipotent, all-powerful; seems to me He has no plan; a plan involves will, will involves desire, desire involves shortage. I believe in that God without will or desire or plan or caring about trivial stuff people ask for.
What was that discussion in BG 2 about Oghma? The watchmaker motif is fun, but that devil doesn't carry a watch you know (Brothers Karamazov again)...thought that was a nice mutual annihilation, or perhaps subtle jest at duality. My original pain quote is Buddhist is origin. Simply means that life by nature of being material is imperfect and that imperfect life by simple action causes pain and destruction. Even love, a 'positive' emotion, causing pain through possession, rejection and loss. Joy turned to sorrow. Now you can dress that up with an afterlife band-aid, but in the here and now, to borrow your phrase, it is what it is. This comes down to the external life vs. the personal life. I personally have a very gloomy exterior view of the word, downright nasty view of the metaphysical, and yet in my personal bubble I am quite content. Happily married for almost 20 years, two great kids, nice hobbit hole, plenty of epicurean pursuits to divert my critical entropic eye, and an acceptance that death walks with us all. I tend to view gods as placeholders for complex ideas the human mind does not have the language to express yet. I wrestle with these gods all the time. If they leave me battered and bruised and a malcontent shaking his fist at heaven for his lameness...don't pity me, celebrate it! For at least I have tired to peer beyond the sunset of conventional ideas. Or you can make fun of the gloomy madman wandering the streets talking in rhyme about conservation of mass in relation to ideas. I doubt I'll notice.
@Vonbek777, I know now that I am younger than you are, sir. I see duality to be is rejected by the very idea of God; the One and only; denying non-existence. I see the world to be upside down just as most believe; politics are all wrong nowadays; here is where Epicurus' philosophy comes in to place; and I embrace it. I'll admit saying 'it is what it is' sounds indelicate. Here we have to remember there is no absolute free will. So there is no point in saying life is unfair; death must be as sweet as living. Now, love, joy, sorrow etc. are defined by the power of other things have upon us; we don't always have to accept it. And maybe calling the Universe, God, is confusing; think about Him to be immanent, inherent, resident; not transitive, building places like heaven and hell.
@Vonbek777 are defined by the power of other things have upon us; we don't always have to accept it.
Indeed. Age is irrelevant, and please don't sir me, why put airs on the aged? I was born old, my wife too. I've met babes with more wisdom than supposedly wise men of many years. Civil discussion is a rare thing these days, don't pollute it with ceremony. Anyway I gladly walk that ancient path of the Fool/Mystic. I'm not looking for specific universals anymore just some universal specifics at this point. Oh, and funding for my upside down underground pyramid project. Have to have some hobbies after all.
Your freewill argument is dependent on the chains of the ego's projection. Self-actualization in theory should provide a choice, a moment of self singularity if you will. In practice well there's mad and then there's mad hatter mad.
@Vonbek777, well, while you don't need people to show much respect for you to live long, some of us need to respect others in order to find some kind of peace. Now, mad hatter mad must be grand, just like Don Quijote and Duck Dogers; like those ancient silens - painted boxes that rouses laughter, but packed with gems - wisdom.
Don Quixote's Montesinos's Cave sequence is a great metaphor for human consciousness. Much like the realization that the three musketeers are made one, and thus the forth. One for all and all for one.
@Vonbek777, I forgot to mention Dostoievski's idiot - Prince Lev Nikolayevich Myshkin; leading me to believe: "we can't be happy, but we can be good; let us therefore pretend that, so long as we are good, it doesn't matter being unhappy" - Bertrand Russell
@Vonbek777, I forgot to mention Dostoievski's idiot - Prince Lev Nikolayevich Myshkin; leading me to believe: "we can't be happy, but we can be good; let us therefore pretend that, so long as we are good, it doesn't matter being unhappy" - Bertrand Russell
Reminds me of the joke about what you get when you cross a stoic with an epicurean?
A well fed Socrates! Ah, I slay myself.
That age old question, is it better to be a satisfied pig or dissatisfied Socrates?
That is due to the vibration of fermions. Resonance harmonics makes everything seem hallow, I mean hollow. Get those superstrings in the brain vibrating really fast and it makes your head rattle. Pretty sure that is why so much effort is placed on meditation. Don't want to lose your head.
@Vonbek777, well, Mill seems to think: "no intelligent human being would consent to be a fool, no instructed person would be an ignoramus". Troublesome indeed; philosophy has no finish line - if it doesn't bring us that peace of knowing, could be a wiser anxiety.
The fool in classical alchemy is the only one who speaks the truth. A Casandra waltzing through life until middle age. Then he takes to the cave and contemplates the various layers of truth he has been spewing all those years without comprehension. The difference from knowing the path and walking it. Everyone gave Kant a hard time for being an idiot savant in reference to that imperative categorical but Mill's teleology grounded in that principle of utility always seemed more naive to me for some reason. I think it has to do with an instinctive dislike for marginalization. Principle of utility is a great tool for marginalization. But there are many ways to crucify mankind on that wheel of time made up of the planks of chaos and order. Ah, I opened the door for Hegel, run for the hills.
If the OP were Xan, he wouldn't have seen a point to starting this thread in the first place.
p.s. I like Socrates ala Plato best: philosophy is a preparation for death. Speaking of which, I need to pick up some groceries later. I'm thinking of getting some eggs, broccoli, trail mix, bananas, beans, apples, cabbage, some chicken, sausages, a few loaves of bread, some tuna, a smoked ham, strawberries and chili peppers, a can of sardines, a 10 lb bag of potatoes, some fresh onions, maybe some frozen concentrated orange juice in a can, a five pack of avocados, some tangerines, a bag of carrots, some hamburger, some pasta and pasta sauce, a few cinnamon sticks, a large pack of perogies, a large block of cheddar cheese, some milk, a pack of chocolate covered almonds, a roast or maybe a turkey, asparagus, cashews, a block of butter, and some toothpaste with fluoride.
If the OP were Xan, he wouldn't have seen a point to starting this thread in the first place. p.s. I like Socrates ala Plato best: philosophy is a preparation for death. Speaking of which, I need to pick up some groceries later. I'm thinking of getting some eggs, broccoli, trail mix, bananas, beans, apples, cabbage, some chicken, sausages, a few loaves of bread, some tuna, a can of sardines, a 10 lb bag of potatoes, some fresh onions, maybe some frozen concentrated orange juice in a can, a five pack of avocados, some tangerines, some hamburger, some pasta and pasta sauce, a few cinnamon sticks, and some toothpaste with fluoride.
Ha, ha, well there's that old adage about misery and company. Xan joined the party after all.
@bjjorick sanity of overrated. also that quote you used was from one of the greatest and deepest thinkers who ever lived. he didn't ask us to not think about certain things. Far from it.
Another hint: you can find the spirit of his thought in my bastardization (but appropriate enough) of one of his works: "humean, all too humean"
@Bjjorick, @Vonbek777, yes, it is what it is, for there is no absolute evil, actually, there is no evil in nature. Now how can God have a plan? Just think about the definition of God; omnipotent, all-powerful; seems to me He has no plan; a plan involves will, will involves desire, desire involves shortage. I believe in that God without will or desire or plan or caring about trivial stuff people ask for.
I've got two ways to comment on this @zafiro. First, a parent desires for his children to grow up well, and doesn't desire to punish his children when they're bad. To say God has no desire goes against what the bible says. God wants (desires) ALL to be saved, but He will judge us at the end, individually, and He is a good judge. If you're a judge and your son comes before you, and he stole a police car. Would you give him mercy or justice? A bad judge and bad dad would give mercy, a good judge and good dad would give justice.
My other counter. If we're made in the image of God, who is superior to us, doesn't that mean that we're basically the same? Less then the original, but with all the same features/emotions? So why do we say that it's human, but say it's impossible for God?
I'd love to talk about this futher, but worried that it's quite off topic. If you would like to debate/talk about it, please pm me.
@grammersalad Just wanted to give you warning, and i could be 100% wrong. But remember for everyone who navigates those waters and make it through alright, there are 100 madmen who weren't so blessed.
@Zafiro thanks for a fascinating thread! Qohelet is one my favorites books of the Bible, and Xan is my favorite character from BG, so your parallels between them were pure bliss.
I do think life is entirely vain and futile, and we delude ourselves to think it is worth living. However, between suiciding, lying down waiting for death, or pleasing myself and keeping myself in as good health as I can, the latter seems more appealing to me, vain though it is. I am therefore condemned to search for a blissful state of mind I call "happiness", knowing fully well it is an illusion and a futility.
@grammersalad Just wanted to give you warning, and i could be 100% wrong. But remember for everyone who navigates those waters and make it through alright, there are 100 madmen who weren't so blessed.
Good morning! Great thread. As the prerogative of an absent minded philosopher, I'm going to meander a bit with my morning cup of coffee. These are just my thoughts percolating to the surface, and I'm not speaking for anyone but me, that unexamined life bit and all that.
Bjjorick, up above, in my opinion, you used a teleological rationalization to justify my death of a child under horrible circumstances (the Brothers Karamazov) reference. This morning, in reference to the madmen, I'm seeing a contrary position. Not suggesting it is necessarily contradictory, because people hold contrary ideas at the same time, all the time, but I do find it interesting.
What I am suspecting from your posts is that you rely on appeals to authority, especially the divine sort, and you value the order and certainty authority brings. Nothing wrong with that, that is the primary mode humanity has operated under for most of its existence, which begs the question, again of what is, is.
Philosophers have long been the devil's advocate, especially when confronting behaviors of the herd vs. behaviors of the individual. Most of my work revolves around resolving the marginalization of the individual by the collective. The 'good' of the collective in point of fact is often transitory with the demands of the environment. Resource management trumps all, that survival of the collective beast being the primary concern, and the voice of authority providing the needed rationalization to escape collective guilt from the very amoral drive to survive.
The individual however is a tougher cookie to crack. His 'good' is a hornet's nest of inputs from the base carnal needs of the id all the way up to the grand universal 'truths' we stumble upon from time to time.
In reference to God as a father figure, I've never been able to buy into this. God as a watchmaker yes, I like to dance to that tune from time to time....we are to use that intellect, fire of reason...to plumb the depths of the universe to find the fingerprints of the divine. But God as a father figure...it is very problematic to me on multiple levels. For one thing, as a father of two, my children don't have to rely on faith in order to interact with me. In reference to Christianity specifically, back to Brothers Karamazov, that ticket price is too high. We can never repay that Christ on the cross...it is an unbalanced equation, faith solves with grace, and yet the equation seems wrong to be in the first place. Much like original sin, that first unbalanced equation back in the mists of time that informs humanity of his wretched state regardless of his present condition.
I brought up Hegel as an aside yesterday because I think he nails the evolution of religious ideas, what I call those placeholders for complex ideas, very well. You can trace the changes in the collectives' programming through the individual contributions to language and ideas. As we have worked on those equations through the ages, the proofs have become more complex and indeed more complicated.
Behind all of that is Hegel's wheel. That cross humanity is crucified on throughout the ages. Made up of the planks of order and chaos. Absolute order is death. Absolute chaos is oblivion. We're caught adrift the two.
Jung is a must read here, especially Aion. Deconstructing archetypes, getting back to that garden of eden in the mind only to find those two planks of order and chaos there forbidding reentry. Gog and Magog and Leviathan and Behemoth...names for things we don't truly even now understand but are locked in the brain's machine language.
All of this rambling to get to the gist that I too hold an internal contradiction... I value the individual over the collective and yet am meh about teleology. Which one would think would be the ultimate province of the individual. Instead, I seek deontological precepts for individual behavior, perhaps because all change begins with an I, and not a we.
Hey, @Vonbek777, you seem to have a thing for 'The Brothers Karamazov'; whys that? I have to admit after your last post, I felt like nothing to say, yet I really appreciate your presence over here. You said a few things about the individual and the collective; here is where you remind me about my conclusion about the rationalist - he must be invisible; hidden in plain sight. I've tried solidarity about people and politics. But found it unnatural picking a rock to use as a weapon in the recent popular mutiny against politics. Yet, I've been there; I'd gladly sacrifice myself for others; how awesome and selfish would that be, to die for your country?! Feels like I've tried to see people as cRPG classes - some fight, some suffer; all for the same ideal - The Heroes are constantly combative, the Saints are constantly reflexive.
Hey, @Vonbek777, you seem to have a thing for 'The Brothers Karamazov'; whys that? I have to admit after your last post, I felt like nothing to say, yet I really appreciate your presence over here. You said a few things about the individual and the collective; here is where you remind me about my conclusion about the rationalist - he must be invisible; hidden in plain sight. I've tried solidarity about people and politics. But found it unnatural picking a rock to use as a weapon in the recent popular mutiny against politics. Yet, I've been there; I'd gladly sacrifice myself for others; how awesome and selfish would that be, to die for your country?! Feels like I've tried to see people as cRPG classes - some fight, some suffer; all for the same ideal - The Heroes are constantly combative, the Saints are constantly reflexive.
Dostoyevsky is a great source for 'nourishment of thought' in terms both philosophical and psychological. I have a few books I try to reread every few years for perspective, to see how I as the pilgrim on that road to find out have changed through the years. Brothers and Crime and Punishment are both on that list. Kant's Critiques and Metaphysics, Tolstoy's War and Peace, Clausewitz's On War, Hegel's Phenomenologies, Aristotle's Ethics, Plato's Republic, Hume's An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Jung's Collected Works emphasis on vol. 9 parts 1 and 2 and vol. 12 and 13. Little Schopenhauer, little Wittgenstein, little Russell. And Nietzsche for the cherry on top of the idea sundae to keep you honest.
I also read a lot of Christian theology, with emphasis on the evolution or revelation as some of my very devout friends like to call it, of doctrine from 3rd century to the early middle ages. German Christian mystics are an acquired taste of mine too.
What motivates my mind trips is an obsession with entropy I've had from a young age. Expressed both mathematically and allegorical so to speak.
Comments
"And so I hasten to give back my entrance ticket, and if I am an honest man I am bound to give it back as soon as possible. And that I am doing. It's not God that I don't accept, Alyosha, only I most respectfully return him the ticket."
We carry on despite the fact that we bring chaos to order and imperfection to perfection simply with our existence, yet we choose to blame others for our own failings. To say the world is messed up, and say that if there is a God, he's horrible, but if there is no God, then it's just the nature of things. We always choose to blame everyone but ourselves for the problems that we cause.
So life isn't perfect, but what good will moping do? Live and live well, love and love strongly, die and die without regrets. What more can you ask of this life, and if you believe in God or not, no matter your belief, if you live as you believe, and help those in need, defend the defenseless, and love the unlovable, then you will leave the world a better place for the next generation.
They'll still complain about it, like our generation does, and all the generations before ours, but that's life.
Your freewill argument is dependent on the chains of the ego's projection. Self-actualization in theory should provide a choice, a moment of self singularity if you will. In practice well there's mad and then there's mad hatter mad.
A well fed Socrates! Ah, I slay myself.
That age old question, is it better to be a satisfied pig or dissatisfied Socrates?
p.s. I like Socrates ala Plato best: philosophy is a preparation for death. Speaking of which, I need to pick up some groceries later. I'm thinking of getting some eggs, broccoli, trail mix, bananas, beans, apples, cabbage, some chicken, sausages, a few loaves of bread, some tuna, a smoked ham, strawberries and chili peppers, a can of sardines, a 10 lb bag of potatoes, some fresh onions, maybe some frozen concentrated orange juice in a can, a five pack of avocados, some tangerines, a bag of carrots, some hamburger, some pasta and pasta sauce, a few cinnamon sticks, a large pack of perogies, a large block of cheddar cheese, some milk, a pack of chocolate covered almonds, a roast or maybe a turkey, asparagus, cashews, a block of butter, and some toothpaste with fluoride.
Another hint: you can find the spirit of his thought in my bastardization (but appropriate enough) of one of his works: "humean, all too humean"
My other counter. If we're made in the image of God, who is superior to us, doesn't that mean that we're basically the same? Less then the original, but with all the same features/emotions? So why do we say that it's human, but say it's impossible for God?
I'd love to talk about this futher, but worried that it's quite off topic. If you would like to debate/talk about it, please pm me.
@grammersalad
Just wanted to give you warning, and i could be 100% wrong. But remember for everyone who navigates those waters and make it through alright, there are 100 madmen who weren't so blessed.
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UNTIL BG:EE IS RELEASED! HACK AND SLASH YOUR WAY TO FORTUNE, WOOHOO!
You don't learn philosophy from philosophers as erudite as they are. You learn it in the trenches
I do think life is entirely vain and futile, and we delude ourselves to think it is worth living. However, between suiciding, lying down waiting for death, or pleasing myself and keeping myself in as good health as I can, the latter seems more appealing to me, vain though it is. I am therefore condemned to search for a blissful state of mind I call "happiness", knowing fully well it is an illusion and a futility.
Just wanted to give you warning, and i could be 100% wrong. But remember for everyone who navigates those waters and make it through alright, there are 100 madmen who weren't so blessed.
Good morning! Great thread. As the prerogative of an absent minded philosopher, I'm going to meander a bit with my morning cup of coffee. These are just my thoughts percolating to the surface, and I'm not speaking for anyone but me, that unexamined life bit and all that.
Bjjorick, up above, in my opinion, you used a teleological rationalization to justify my death of a child under horrible circumstances (the Brothers Karamazov) reference. This morning, in reference to the madmen, I'm seeing a contrary position. Not suggesting it is necessarily contradictory, because people hold contrary ideas at the same time, all the time, but I do find it interesting.
What I am suspecting from your posts is that you rely on appeals to authority, especially the divine sort, and you value the order and certainty authority brings. Nothing wrong with that, that is the primary mode humanity has operated under for most of its existence, which begs the question, again of what is, is.
Philosophers have long been the devil's advocate, especially when confronting behaviors of the herd vs. behaviors of the individual. Most of my work revolves around resolving the marginalization of the individual by the collective. The 'good' of the collective in point of fact is often transitory with the demands of the environment. Resource management trumps all, that survival of the collective beast being the primary concern, and the voice of authority providing the needed rationalization to escape collective guilt from the very amoral drive to survive.
The individual however is a tougher cookie to crack. His 'good' is a hornet's nest of inputs from the base carnal needs of the id all the way up to the grand universal 'truths' we stumble upon from time to time.
In reference to God as a father figure, I've never been able to buy into this. God as a watchmaker yes, I like to dance to that tune from time to time....we are to use that intellect, fire of reason...to plumb the depths of the universe to find the fingerprints of the divine. But God as a father figure...it is very problematic to me on multiple levels. For one thing, as a father of two, my children don't have to rely on faith in order to interact with me. In reference to Christianity specifically, back to Brothers Karamazov, that ticket price is too high. We can never repay that Christ on the cross...it is an unbalanced equation, faith solves with grace, and yet the equation seems wrong to be in the first place. Much like original sin, that first unbalanced equation back in the mists of time that informs humanity of his wretched state regardless of his present condition.
I brought up Hegel as an aside yesterday because I think he nails the evolution of religious ideas, what I call those placeholders for complex ideas, very well. You can trace the changes in the collectives' programming through the individual contributions to language and ideas. As we have worked on those equations through the ages, the proofs have become more complex and indeed more complicated.
Behind all of that is Hegel's wheel. That cross humanity is crucified on throughout the ages. Made up of the planks of order and chaos. Absolute order is death. Absolute chaos is oblivion. We're caught adrift the two.
Jung is a must read here, especially Aion. Deconstructing archetypes, getting back to that garden of eden in the mind only to find those two planks of order and chaos there forbidding reentry. Gog and Magog and Leviathan and Behemoth...names for things we don't truly even now understand but are locked in the brain's machine language.
All of this rambling to get to the gist that I too hold an internal contradiction... I value the individual over the collective and yet am meh about teleology. Which one would think would be the ultimate province of the individual. Instead, I seek deontological precepts for individual behavior, perhaps because all change begins with an I, and not a we.
I also read a lot of Christian theology, with emphasis on the evolution or revelation as some of my very devout friends like to call it, of doctrine from 3rd century to the early middle ages. German Christian mystics are an acquired taste of mine too.
What motivates my mind trips is an obsession with entropy I've had from a young age. Expressed both mathematically and allegorical so to speak.