Xan - The Wisest of them all
Zafiro
Member Posts: 436
You probably know the saying - ignorance is bliss, and maybe you got to know Xan by now - an enchanter of the Greycloak clan of elves from Evereska, having 17 intelligence and 14 wisdom in D&D numbers. Also "he is very pessimistic, and often makes negative comments while expressing surprise at success."About ten years or so, I first heard somebody say - "I'd be happy if I'd be foolish"; that always made an impression on me. And many times I've been remembering it; gives you a certain feeling of doom. You, Xan and I are not the only ones that had that feeling among men:
"PROP. XV. Desire arising from the knowledge of good and bad can be quenched or checked by many of the other desires arising from the emotions whereby we are assailed."
"PROP. XVI. Desire arising from the knowledge of good and evil, in so far as such knowledge regards what is future, may be more easily controlled or quenched, than the desire for what is agreeable at the present moment.
Note.--I think I have now shown the reason, why men are moved by opinion more readily than by, true reason, why it is that the true knowledge of good and evil stirs up conflicts in the soul, and often yields to every kind of passion. This state of things gave rise to the exclamation of the poet:
<<The better path I gaze at and approve, the worse I follow.>>" - Publius Ovidius Naso, Metamorphoses
"Ecclesiastes seems to have had the same thought in his mind, when he says, <<He who increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.>> I have not written the above with the object of drawing the conclusion, that ignorance is more excellent than knowledge, or that a wise man is on a par with a fool in controlling his emotions, but because it is necessary to know the power and the infirmity of our nature, before we can determine what reason can do in restraining the emotions, and what is beyond her power."
If we are to read The Book of Ecclesiastes we find - "Sheer futility*, Qoheleth says. Sheer futility: everything is futile!;
- I thought to myself, 'Very well, I will try pleasure and see what enjoyment has to offer.' And this was futile too;
- I then reflected on all that my hands had achieved and all the effort I had put into its achieving. What futility it all was, what chasing after the wind! There is nothing to be gained under the sun;
- My reflections then turned to wisdom, stupidity and folly. For instance, what can the successor of a king do? What has been done already;
- More is to be gained from wisdom than from folly, just as one gains more from light than from darkness;
this, of course, I see:
- The wise have their eyes open, the fool walks in the dark. No doubt! But I know, too, that one fate awaits them both. 'Since the fool's fate', I thought to myself, 'will be my fate too, what is the point of my having been wise?' I realised that this too is futile."
Where Xan says - Onward, to futility!
- Qoheleth says: For there is no lasting memory for the wise or the fool, and in the days to come both will be forgotten; the wise, no less than the fool, must die. For here is one who has laboured wisely, skilfully and successfully and must leave what is his own to someone who has not toiled for it at all. This is futile too, and grossly unjust; since his days are full of sorrow, his work is full of stress and even at night he has no peace of mind? This is futile too.
- Xan says: Oh, what is the point?
- Qoheleth says: How sweet light is, how delightful it is to see the sun!
- Xan says: The sun shines, and I'm amazed we live to see another day!
- Qoheleth says: However many years you live, enjoy them all, but remember, the days of darkness will be many: futility awaits you at the end.
- Xan says: We're all doomed.
- "Sheer futility, Qoheleth says, everything is futile."
I don't know if whoever worked on Xan had similar sensibilities, but it appears to be that Xan is knowing a few things about the world.
Here something to think on - would you trade wisdom for pleasure?
"Few human creatures would consent to be changed into any of the lower animals, for a promise of the fullest allowance of a beast's pleasures; no intelligent human being would consent to be a fool, no instructed person would be an ignoramus, no person of feeling and conscience would be selfish and base, even though they should be persuaded that the fool, the dunce, or the rascal is better satisfied with his lot than they are with theirs. They would not resign what they possess more than he for the most complete satisfaction of all the desires which they have in common with him. If they ever fancy they would, it is only in cases of unhappiness so extreme, that to escape from it they would exchange their lot for almost any other, however undesirable in their own eyes...
It is better to be a human being dissatisfied than a pig satisfied; better to be Socrates dissatisfied than a fool satisfied. And if the fool, or the pig, are a different opinion, it is because they only know their own side of the question. The other party to the comparison knows both sides." J.St.Mill, Utilitarianism
So, do you feel doomed? I say "onward, to futility!"
Bibliography:
Benedict de Spinoza - Ethics
The Holy Bible - The Book of Ecclesiastes
J. St. Mill - Utilitarianism
Mark E. Copeland The Book Of Ecclesiastes - A Study Guide With Introductory Comments, Summaries, Outlines, And Review Questions
Edit: um, looking for Xan's portrait on Google, I got redirected to Xanax..
*MESSAGE
There are two main messages. The first is stated in the prologue: “All is vanity” (1:2). This theme is
repeated by the Preacher time and again:
♦ Prior to describing his search for meaning - 1:14
♦ Throughout the course of his search:
- The vanity of pleasure - 2:1
- The vanity of industry (labor) - 2:11,22-23; 4:4
- The vanity of human wisdom - 2:15
- The vanity of all life - 2:17
- The vanity of leaving an inheritance - 2:18-21
♦ Throughout his words of counsel and wisdom:
- The vanity of earthly existence - 3:19-21
- The vanity of acquiring riches over family - 4:7-8
- The vanity of political popularity - 4:16
- The vanity of many dreams and many words - 5:7
- The vanity of loving abundance - 5:10
- The vanity of wealth without the gift of God to enjoy it - 6:2
- The vanity of wandering desire - 6:9
- The vanity of foolish laughter - 7:6
- The vanity of injustice in this life - 8:14
- The vanity of the days of darkness - 11:8
- The vanity of childhood and youth - 11:10
Indeed, the key word in this book is “vanity”. It occurs 35 times in 29 verses. It means “futility,
uselessness, nothingness.”
repeated by the Preacher time and again:
♦ Prior to describing his search for meaning - 1:14
♦ Throughout the course of his search:
- The vanity of pleasure - 2:1
- The vanity of industry (labor) - 2:11,22-23; 4:4
- The vanity of human wisdom - 2:15
- The vanity of all life - 2:17
- The vanity of leaving an inheritance - 2:18-21
♦ Throughout his words of counsel and wisdom:
- The vanity of earthly existence - 3:19-21
- The vanity of acquiring riches over family - 4:7-8
- The vanity of political popularity - 4:16
- The vanity of many dreams and many words - 5:7
- The vanity of loving abundance - 5:10
- The vanity of wealth without the gift of God to enjoy it - 6:2
- The vanity of wandering desire - 6:9
- The vanity of foolish laughter - 7:6
- The vanity of injustice in this life - 8:14
- The vanity of the days of darkness - 11:8
- The vanity of childhood and youth - 11:10
Indeed, the key word in this book is “vanity”. It occurs 35 times in 29 verses. It means “futility,
uselessness, nothingness.”
Post edited by Zafiro on
9
Comments
Want you to realize that in business, 90% of new businesses fail within the first 5 years. Also, depending on the company you work for, usually those in charge aren't the brightest, and it's easy to see that alot of times that they make mistakes that will lead to failure. But in our society, failure happens alot.
So someone who is pessimistic will say 'this is doomed to fail' or 'this will never work' or etc, and the odds are with them, and if they have any part of making sure that it works, then it's almost guaranteed to fail. Thus, people think that the person is intelligent because they saw 'flaws' in the plan, but the truth is, i've worked with those people, and they just like to bitch and moan. They don't take the time to look at what they're facing.
Xan isn't doom and gloom because he's intelligent, he just likes to be doom and gloom. And he isn't intelligent because he thinks the end is nigh. He's just intelligent and dooma nd gloom, he would be the same way with a 3 int, he just wouldn't be able to express it as well as he does.
Let me add this - I never implied the wise must be considered a pessimist.
And yes I see most of the world through kant tinted glasses!
"...redirected to xanax."lol zoloft would have been more ironic but I'll take it lol!
I'd give you an "insightful"of I was at my computer.
@bjjorick
It's interesting that you bring up business. I wasn't aware that the failure rate was that high but what fits that tell you about human nature?
Many new business owners went to business school and must have learned the odds and yet a much higher perCent believe (I think it's in the 90s) that report that THEIR business can't fail.
a rational person will always start at the base rate.if this is 10% as you say then nobody except the rich-who can afford the loss-should do it. Some things to consider:
But isn't the western experiment about puncturing the stratum? And hasn't this system-as imperfect as it is-benefited us all?
This last point touches somewhat on the op: what if we the enlightened owe a debt to those in the cave? to push the point further what if we benefit from their ignorance? What if our leisure time has been bought with their inevitable, irrational failure?
if we had the god like power
should we throw the gates of reason open and let them bathe in the light as well even of that means the light will be dimmer and shorter for it?
I think that once this first step is made-or begun anyway-there is still the question: what next?
what would xan do? I'm not sure. I rarely take any npcs preferring to create my own party. It's the Onward that concerns me here. A trainable question is "why?"
a number of people seem to defy mill preferring pigdome to socratic futility but the answer might be in this same quote: maybe they only know their side.
We've construed churches, heaven, all sorts of immortality projects to blind ourselves from the truth. A slave revolt indeed! Those few-even kant!-that have glimpsed this have asked "why go forward?" And despite himself kant gives an answer: 'look up! We do not strive to stay on this same road forever, we strive to soar!" He'd put it a little more dryly but same basic point.
Onward, (pointing up beckoning others to do the same)
so perhaps futility should be the first word, onward second. (and don't worry.my post modern friends tel me it's ok to twist it like that!)
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing."
We're all doomed!
DOOMED!
Let's see this: "PROP. XXXV. In so far only as men live in obedience to reason, do they always necessarily agree in nature.
Corollary I.--There is no individual thing in nature, which is more useful to man, than a man who lives in obedience to reason. For that thing is to man most useful, which is most in harmony with his nature; that is, obviously, man. But man acts absolutely according to the laws of his nature, when he lives in obedience to reason, and to this extent only is always necessarily in harmony with the nature of another man; wherefore among individual things nothing is more useful to man, than a man who lives in obedience to reason."
And: "PROP. XXXVII. The good which every man, who follows after virtue, desires for himself he will also desire for other men, and so much the more, in proportion as he has a greater knowledge of God."
And: "PROP. LXXI. Only free men are thoroughly grateful one to another.
Proof.--Only free men are thoroughly useful one to another, and associated among themselves by the closest necessity of friendship, only such men endeavour, with mutual zeal of love, to confer benefits on each other, and, therefore, only they are thoroughly grateful one to another." - Spinoza
There is nothing to benefit from ignorance; if you are gain something, it's called taking advantage of people; not really that rational anymore.
Is it trivial of we can learn something from it? How can we know if we don't look. If you benefit from a system that, by it's nature exploits others, do you benefit from that exploitation even if unknowingly? and if we don't know do we have an obligation to find out?
You ask to be understood but you don't return the favor.
please tell me that your reply to my post was you being overly dramatic or fictitious or sarcastic or even downright trying to be smart without having a clue as to what you were talking about. If you truly believe the things you posted, then i shall worry about you.
But, one point you made i have to comment on. You said if you have the power of God/gods, what should you do? Well, that will never happen, so the question is quite moot. Once you can create a universe out of nothing (heck, even program it fully on a computer), we'll talk. Until then, trust me, out of your reach, out of all of our reach.
Also you might want to consider the possibility that I do know what I'm talking about.
no such thing
That feeling means that your world view is being challenged. The natural response is to engage in "motivated reasoning" which is basically what philosophers describe when they use the term "fallacy".
A very common one is ad hominem attacks or attributions which is what we do to "out groups": we assume they are crazy biased or stupid and so give ourselves permission to ignore, discount out of hand, etc whatever they say.
A tragic fact is that even when we know about such biases we generally only attribute them to "them". Such is the insidious nature of human bias.
If you've done that here you haven't read this far which I think is tragic but not surprising.
You don't have to take my word for it (nor should you really-as far as you know I'm just someone on the nets). You can look it up. The sad thing is people generally don't see themselves even when-perhaps especially when-you hold up a mirror.
humean, all to humean
Remember, wisdom tells you that some things are better not to think about, as i do believe the old quote 'When you look long into the abyss, the abyss looks long into you.'
I know your concepts and your line of thinking, and it typically starts from the same places, but it leads in the long run to insanity. Some thoughts don't expand the mind, but corrupt it, and lead to some bad places. I've been down that road and seen others go down it, and that's why i asked in the first place.
Either way, the wise man knows when to move and when to stop. It's why i believe xan isn't wise, just insane. His actions in BG2 taught me that much.
edit: and you can call it being biased, but i'm harder on myself then anyone else, and i hold others in greater confidence then myself. I just have some experience being 'unwise' and saw enough to feel concern. I mean no offense in the least.
@Zafiro Your post was an interesting read but I will politely disagree. I believe that wisdom merely confers a more comprehensive look on the world, humanity and its nature and is not intrinsically linked to a pessimistic outlook, nor does a pessimistic outlook confer a person higher wisdom.
I will propose this: people with a higher strength of character and an optimistic outlook will see the world as it is, aknowledge its faults and believe that either alone or together with other people they will make a difference or empower people to make a difference. Two examples come to mind right now (I make no claim that they are the best): Mahatma Gandhi; Mother Theresa. It would be hard to argue that their actions didn't impact the world in a positive manner. Were they foolish to believe the world worth 'saving'/'bettering'? Were they ignorant? I don't believe so.
As to "However many years you live, enjoy them all, but remember, the days of darkness will be many: futility awaits you at the end"
A quote from a book in a world without a tangible deity shouldn't be applied in a world with a myriad of tangible deities.
A city governed by a being so powerful that even it can enforce rules such as 'Gods are not allowed' (Sigil)... this world I believe will stay beyond our comprehension as long as we continue to apply Earth definitions and terms to it.
And now I am imagining a line of fighters drooling like idiots while waiting for fight a battle, while the Illusionists behind them are coughing and hacking up a lung.
So, no. It was never really a problem-it was just the way things were. You accepted it, or not. There was another game out at the time called "Fantasy Roleplaying" where the only class allowed to female characters was... wait for it... Courtesan (aka Prostitute). I'd take D&D over that *any* day!
And then you understand that even the wise, the benevolent, the strong and the sane can easily become the monsters that you vowed to keep away from the ones you loved. But now, as one of them, you have to work hard to content your furious anger and avoid hurting peoples the same way they did.
Happiness is the cure, an happy person don't beat is wife, an happy person don't kill is childrens, an happy person find a way to accept what he cannot change (call it wisdom or intelligence). But since we know that humans brains and 'hearts' are not perfect, the 'world' will never be at peace, so do what you can and create a kingdom of happiness for the one you love.
Don't be another fool that even the word 'hate', 'anger', 'fury' cannot describe what he feel. You will live each day of your life at one inch of a bloodshed and be exactly that kind of mad men who don't care about human dignity and life.
'I'd be happy if I'd be foolish'
I once believed that, I may be mistaken but this is no longer the case.
Don't hate me, I'm one of those blessed with everything except dex.
"Oh, it is real. It is the only real thing. Pain. So let us name the truth, like men. We are born to joy that joy may become pain. We are born to hope that hope may become pain. We are born to love that love may become pain. We are born to pain that pain may become more. Pain, and from that inexhaustible super flux we may give others pain as our prime definition," -Warren, Brothers to Dragons