Double Backstab Possible?

GammaPhase

I haven't tried this but I'm curious:

Can you set up more than one character to backstab a single victim, for instance, move them side by side behind the victim (they're in stealth), pause, and set their action to attack on unpause?

Curious if both would have a chance of going through, or if the first stab would alert the victim or otherwise blow the opportunity for stabber # 2. Or if the positioning wouldn't work, etc.

JuliusBorisov

It's possible if both characters attack simultaneously - make sure the attack speed of their weapon is not different and you order them to attack in one moment. They both should be behind the victim.

Awong124

What I like to do is have two backstabbing characters stealthed, with one character positioned behind the target and the other in front of the target. I get the one behind the target to backstab, then when the target turns to face the first backstabber, I backstab with the second character.

Rodrian

@Awong124

sluckers

Great, now another thing I want to try out. I shall have to try bothof these methods in combination.

It shall be called the "Staggered twin duo attack double-backstab double combo".

GammaPhase

@bengoshi What happens if weapon speed is different, will one of the attacks fail?

@Awong124
That's bizarre, I was thinking about doing that.

Actually I took it a step further in my mind, having four thieves surround the target, starting a backstab party. What would you call that?

JuliusBorisov

GammaPhase said:

@bengoshi What happens if weapon speed is different, will one of the attacks fail?

It may lead to a situation when after the thief with the faster weapon backstabs, the enemy turns to him, and then the second thief attacks in front of the enemy, not behind. So that the @Awong124 's suggestion can greatly help here.

If you put all 4 thieves around the target: 2 in front of it and 2 behind, you have a chance for succeeding. But take a note that while all this backstabbing is going, one of your thieves can lose his invisibility.

brus

Does mage get extra damage as thief when he's invisible and casts first spell?

lunar

brus said:

Does mage get extra damage as thief when he's invisible and casts first spell?

Nope. However any character gets bonus to attack roll when attacking from invisibility. Only thieves and stalkers get a damage boost based on their backstab modifier, and only then if they attack with a melee weapon usable by a single class thief, and score a hit. And if the target creature is not immune to backstabs, too! Spell damage/saving throw is totally unaffected.

You can however, get a critical hit with a backstab for very high damage. Single weapon style helps thieves in this manner as it ups the critical chance to %10.

Awong124

GammaPhase said:

@bengoshi What happens if weapon speed is different, will one of the attacks fail?

@Awong124
That's bizarre, I was thinking about doing that.

Actually I took it a step further in my mind, having four thieves surround the target, starting a backstab party. What would you call that?

I don't think surrounding the target would actually work, because two of the characters will always be on the target's side. Your characters have to actually be positioned behind the target within reason for it to register as a backstab. My estimate is that you probably have a leeway of about 45 degrees to either side. Although all attacks made from stealth will have a bonus regardless.

lunar said:

You can however, get a critical hit with a backstab for very high damage. Single weapon style helps thieves in this manner as it ups the critical chance to %10.

I remember getting a critical backstab with Skie on Karoug and chunking him to pieces. That was pretty sweet.

sluckers

I just performed a double backstab with two different weapons with different speeds.

It works.

When the victim is first struck, they lurch back. This takes a moment, allowing the second weapon to land a hit. Only after do they turn around.

Granted, the difference here was between a long and short sword. If one weapon's speed is 1, and the other 10, it might be a different story.

Wowo

sluckers said:

I just performed a double backstab with two different weapons with different speeds.

It works.

When the victim is first struck, they lurch back. This takes a moment, allowing the second weapon to land a hit. Only after do they turn around.

Granted, the difference here was between a long and short sword. If one weapon's speed is 1, and the other 10, it might be a different story.

What's the biggest difference in weapon speed among thief weapons I wonder?

Gallowglass

Wowo said:

What's the biggest difference in weapon speed among thief weapons I wonder?

Several of the better ones have speed 0, and at the other extreme The Answerer +4 has speed 9.

sluckers

The only way I've ever understood weapon speed is at which point during the round it hits. A thief with one attack still has three 'weapon swing' animations during the round, so a weapon with speed 0-3 will hit on the first swing, 4-7 during the second, and 8-10 during the third, I guess. Not 100% on that, though. Don't think I've backstabbed with a very slow weapon before, so I've never seen anything land on the third swing.

I use a lot of quarterstaffs, however, and they always hit or miss on the second swing animation. Kundane, on the other hand, I remember just appearing and hitting instantly, then darting away.

But this idea falls apart if you have 2 or more attacks. Not sure how weapon speed is determined in that case.

Perhaps someone else knows more...

lunar

sluckers said:

The only way I've ever understood weapon speed is at which point during the round it hits. A thief with one attack still has three 'weapon swing' animations during the round, so a weapon with speed 0-3 will hit on the first swing, 4-7 during the second, and 8-10 during the third, I guess. Not 100% on that, though. Don't think I've backstabbed with a very slow weapon before, so I've never seen anything land on the third swing.

I use a lot of quarterstaffs, however, and they always hit or miss on the second swing animation. Kundane, on the other hand, I remember just appearing and hitting instantly, then darting away.

But this idea falls apart if you have 2 or more attacks. Not sure how weapon speed is determined in that case.

Perhaps someone else knows more...

Only the first attack is affected by the weapon speed. Then the other attacks hit in roughly equal intervals.

Gallowglass

lunar said:

Only the first attack is affected by the weapon speed. Then the other attacks hit in roughly equal intervals.

And if the weapon speed is slow enough that there isn't time for subsequent APR to occur within the round at one-per-tick (where a "tick" is 0.6 seconds), then the first attack will be brought forward (regardless of weapon speed) to sufficiently earlier in the round that the later APR will now fit within the round.

Thus, for example, if you've got a character striking at 10 APR (e.g. with the Greater Whirlwind Attack HLA), then the first attack is forced to occur at the start of the round (and remaining attacks each one tick later), no matter what the weapon speed would normally have been.

lunar

Gallowglass said:

lunar said:

Only the first attack is affected by the weapon speed. Then the other attacks hit in roughly equal intervals.

And if the weapon speed is slow enough that there isn't time for subsequent APR to occur within the round at one-per-tick (where a "tick" is 0.6 seconds), then the first attack will be brought forward (regardless of weapon speed) to sufficiently earlier in the round that the later APR will now fit within the round.

Thus, for example, if you've got a character striking at 10 APR (e.g. with the Greater Whirlwind Attack HLA), then the first attack is forced to occur at the start of the round (and remaining attacks each one tick later), no matter what the weapon speed would normally have been.

That is true, if you use whirlwind attacks, you hit immediately, even with a lousy weapon speed of 10. There is just no time left for other attacks otherwise.
For a regular thief with 1 or 2 attacks at most, weapon speed still counts.

Does haste or improved haste improve weapon speed?

ZanathKariashi

haste boosts weapon speed by +2. Enhancement bonus boosts weapon by 1 per point. two handed style boosts weapon speed by 2 per point. Kensai get a boost to attack speed by 1 per 3 levels. High Mastery boosts weapon speed by 1.