What do you do with spellcasters at high levels?

Kneller

Once you get to the point that everything has really low saving throws and really high MR, what do you do with your spellcasters to keep them viable? Thanks.

JLee

I agree with Albert Einstein, Improved Haste is the most powerful force in the universe.

I'm not very imaginative, but mostly it's a lot of RRR, Breach, IH, True Sight, IA and Time Stop. That's why I love Sorcerers so. When it comes down to it, I don't need spellcasters to do much, but I can't do anything without them.

Kneller

So, eventually, a magic user is just a debuffer? I was thinking of taking a cleric/mage through, but I feel like they're just support characters. I'll probably have all the magic I need when I get Imoen back, yeah?

Ohmega

There are so many ways that it's hard to put it succinctly in one post... There's two parts, one is the blanket statement on dealing with it in an overall way and the other is dealing with enemies specifically (know thy enemy).

Blanket answer:
-Greater Malison and lower their saves.
-Use spells with a strong negative save modifier: Chaos, Slow, Symbol: Fear. (Best used with Greater Malison in effect)
-Use spells that trigger a save every round so that you're likely to have an impact: Blade Barrier/Globe of Blades, Spere of Chaos. (Best used with Greater Malison in effect)
-Use summons. If the enemy has death spell (situational) then bait out the death spell (usually with an item like the Black Spider Figurine, or Wand of Monster Summoning) and send in summons anyway. Or use Devas (cannot be Death spelled).
-Lower Resistance/Pierce Magic/Pierce Shield - reduce magic resistance until you can reliably get spells off, try to spell sequencer these, you don't want to spend the entire fight lowering resistances...
-Use spells that don't allow the enemy saves: Power Word: Blind, Storm of Vengeance, Insect Plague etc.
-Use spells that ignore enemy magic resistance: Imprisonment, Implosion, Firestorm, Dragon's Breath etc.
-Use utility spells to buff your team/heal/reveal enemy/remove enemy magic protections/dispel enemy control spells etc.
-Turn your caster into a Fighter: Tenser's Transformation, Improved Haste, Strength of One, Draw Upon Holy Might and Righteous Magic. Best done with dual-wielding (with a Cleric/Mage) or specifically with Tuigan's Bow (as a Thief/Mage) for a higher number of attacks per round with Improved Haste.
-Use Magic Weaponry: Energy Blades, Melf's Minute Meteors, Fire Seeds, Black Blade of Disaster, while not terribly effective or graceful there are some combinations that make great use of these spells.

N.B. In BG2EE Doom takes way too long to cast. Spend the time casting something that will have a much bigger impact. Only cast it if you have literally NOTHING else to do or have run out of better spells. If you're running standard BG2 then use Doom with Greater Malison.

--------------
Pt2:

Knowing enemies in BG2 is pretty important so that you're not memorising useless spells (knowing your own spell kit is important too in this regard!). I will not list every enemy in the game, that would take forever, but for example:

Beholders: Summon Skeleton Warrior + Haste + Breach. One of those situations where 'just knowing what works' is important, Beholders won't blow through Skeleton Warriors with their unique spell set. However, Elder Orbs have 1 Death Spell memorised, if you run into an Elder Orb, you'll want to bait the Death Spell out. They also have Stoneskin which you can remove by casting Breach - they tend to recast this at a certain point (Injured health status maybe or "on hit"). You can ALSO Confuse Beholders using Confuse or Chaos spell and it stops them from throwing their spells. You can now walk up and hit them with your Fighters.

Also, Beholders cannot see invisible enemies, you can scout them out with a thief or use Mislead to get spells off on them. But Elder Orbs do cast True Seeing, you can bait this out. And because Beholders have no items (most of the game) you can use Imprisonment on them and just take the exp - good for removing Hive Mind types.

Knowing your enemy and what spells you can use/should use is pretty important.

For a more Highly Tiered enemy: Lich are invulnerable to most spells and also throw up many protections. The best way to deal with them is to Sunray them and make sure someone has Spell Immunity: Abjuration + Death Ward on and tanks the Lich's Imprisonment/Wail of the Banshee spells. Otherwise use True Seeing + Breach so that you can hit the Lich with +4 weapons.

Knowing what you're coming up against at certain stages of the game will help greatly in your understanding of "what to memorise", otherwise you might end up reloading if you run into something particularly difficult. "What is good" is very much based on what it is you're fighting, what part of the game you're up to.

Staying relevant as a Spellcaster isn't very hard. Many of the HLAs make sure of this. Not to mention a majority of ToB is unusually susceptible to magic, you won't have any issues staying relevant until you run into the big bosses.

Kneller

While I like having both the cleric and mage in one toon, the fire and forget thing is a real turn off. It almost makes me want to go sorcerer...it seems that there's only a handful of staple spells and a few contextual situations where you're probably better off casting random stuff from scrolls. However, I'm keeping Imoen when I get her back, so I'm not sure how that should influence either my spell picks or how I would play Imoen.

lunar

Dragons breath hla ignores magic resistance, very useful against drow hordes.

Planetars are the king of the summons, an improved hasted planetar is a sheer force to behold.

Timestop+shape change into mind flayer and go suckle brains. This will kill most creatures. (you will miss xp, IIRC)

Imprisonment gets rid of nasty magic resistant and durable foes like an adamantite golem. One cast and it is gone, and you get the xp too!

Chain contingency with triple horrid wiltings will give you huge damage.

Wish spell can give you free rests inside fights if your wisdom is high. You can also summon a bunny horde and then unleash a horrid wilting on every creature on the map, so enemies swarmed by the bunnies will get hit by 20 wiltings in a row.

If all else fails, energy blades do nice damage, and it auto hits in time stop as well.

A mage can be immune to everything in the game, pro from magic weapons+stoneskin+mirror image+spell turning+spell immunity:abjuration+divination and you are a much better tank then all fighters. Apply spell immunity:necro for defense against wiltings&wail of the banshee or invocation for various blast spells.

So yeah high level casters are ridiculously powerful!

Ohmega

@lunar do you really need to ruin the game for people? ;P

You forgot Mislead and Project Image abuse. (my 'favourite')

BTW, if you want to be instantly bored, do what Lunar suggests.

But yes, level 9 spells are strong end-game abilities.

Kneller

I can see the merit in the high level spells, but I don't know what I would use for lower level spells once I get to that high level.

Edit: and I'm really considering doing the sorcerer instead. The spell mechanics (i.e. spells/day as opposed to specific memorizations) are just really tempting. If I could do that with a Cleric/Mage, I'd be in heaven.

Pantalion

Kneller said:

I can see the merit in the high level spells, but I don't know what I would use for lower level spells once I get to that high level.

What would you like? And what do you mean by low level?

Level 1 spells include Spook. This can be cast out of range of the enemy's line of sight with a scout doing the spotting, and has a -6 save. giving it a decent chance, even at higher levels. Disabling your enemy's mage = Mage won the encounter.
Magic Missile offers multiple chances to cause casting failure, or free damage (if your mage is killing time, why not?). Chromatic Orb offers a 5% of instant death per cast and kills off any stray trolls.
Level 2 spells include Mirror Image - Baby stoneskins, only now you can cast a ton of it.
Resist Fear gives absolute fear immunity.
Invisibility can save your mage in a pinch if they get cornered.
Glitterdust gives an AOE blind chance. Even without Greater Malaison if you cast it on a crowd of twenty enemies, you'll blind at least one of them on average, and Blindness is its own -4 save penalty. Both spells combined is -8 to saves, and if it misses... So? It's a level 2 spell.
Level 3 spells give the ever useful haste, dispel/remove magic, and invisibility 10', if you don't want to use the various protection spells. Imp. Invisibility also helps against enemy casters that don't have True Sight up yet.
Level 4 spells are still great for Malaison and Stoneskins.
Level 5 spells are still great for Breach and Spell Immunity.
Level 6 spells include Death Spell for removing summons, improved haste, PfMW...

There are solid spells at pretty much any level.

abazigal5

Time Stop, Horrid Wilting, Dragon's Breath, Comet, etc. Dragon's breath can get through a lot of MR, including that of dragons.

sluckers

I've only been through Throne of Bhaal once, but Imoen eventually became a half wannabe cleric by equipping lots of spells to enhance her party mates, and half transformer using self-enhancements that turned her into a melee or backstabbing monster. I was never too hot with mages, but I found my groove with them in the alteration school of magic.

I didn't use many spells on enemies at all, aside from magic strippers.

DragonKing

< ... > because we are the most broken force in the universe

Don't forget the site rules, please

Nuin

You know, there's a reason why there's 8 schools of magic.

ifupauline

Kneller said:

While I like having both the cleric and mage in one toon, the fire and forget thing is a real turn off. It almost makes me want to go sorcerer...it seems that there's only a handful of staple spells and a few contextual situations where you're probably better off casting random stuff from scrolls.

What is "the fire and forget thing" you are talking about? I don't understand the turn off with cleric/mage, there is nothing a sorcerer can do that a c/m can't do aside of having more spells available. Plus since you are limited in slot, it makes the use of scrolls more relevant. Weather you are soloing or running a party, a c/m will be far more interesting and versatile than a sorcerer where you will just keep doing the same things over and over again. Sure you'll deal more damage but that's as far as you can go and once you run out of offensive spell, what is left aside from running?

Ohmega

@ifupauline

He means memorisation.

What do you mean turn off? He said he would like to play one except that he prefers the sorcerer spell mechanic.

C/M and sorcerer opperate very differently, it's not like 'why take a sorcerer when c/m is stronger and you could just take that?' sorcerers are a solo class so work better in larger groups or when you already have 3 multiclasses. They get a LOT of high level spells very early into the game and have a unique spell mechanic. A c/m has to wait a LONG time to come online, probably one of the longest if not The longest in the game for those high level spells and spell sequencer combos.

Not saying one is stronger than the other just that they play out extremely differently. They're not similar enough to be so interchangeable as you make it out to be.