What happens to a cleric's abilities when his God dies?

BollywoodHero

Does a cleric lose his spells when his God dies? Can he start worshiping another God to retain his spells?

Tanthalas

I'm not sure if they lose their spells immediately (I think they'll be able to still use the spells that they have memorized since the power transfer already happened), but they can't memorize any new spells for sure.

They have to start worshipping another god to get spells again (and use Turn Undead and other abilities that depend on powers granted by their deity).

Ulfgar_Torunn

I imagine that it would be treated as an alignment transgression; loss of spellcasting and special abilities. They would retain all other class features, and would have to atone in the eyes of the new deity as per the Atonement spell and any necessary Geas/Quest therein.

The new deity wouldn't immediately accept them as a member of the faith, but would gradually grant their favor according to DM adjudication.

sandmanCCL

Forgotten Realms is weird like that. There are cases of powerful clerics with powerful divine magic who's god is simply dead. Theories are Ao grants clerical powers to humans that continue to worship a dead pantheon.

Mortianna

BollywoodHero said:

Does a cleric lose his spells when his God dies? Can he start worshiping another God to retain his spells?

From my understanding of Gygax's 1st edition AD&D, clerics cast first and second level spells based on their own divine power. If a deity dies or withdraws his or her favor from a cleric, the cleric may still cast first and second level spells. This is also true if the cleric changes to a radically different alignment. As long as they pursue that path with the same zeal and conviction as their former path, they will still be able to cast those spells even if they haven't committed themselves to another god.

Third through fifth level spells are granted through the deity's minions (Archons, Greater Baatezu and Tanar'i, the Yochlol of Lolth, etc.) rather than the deity itself. They serve as intermediaries between the deity and the cleric. So, if they piss off the minions, they will revoke access to those spells (among other things, I'm sure).

The sixth and seventh level spells are granted directly by the deity. This is when clerics gain direct access to their deity. When clerics achieve these levels, their deities actually start taking notice of them (they're not omnipotent, after all). Imagine if a god or goddess had to grant every single budding Acolyte her spells for the day--they wouldn't have time for their own divine issues!

I'm not sure it counts if a deity dies, but in the 1st ed. DMG (p.39), Gygax writes, "There is no salvation for a thrice-changed cleric . . . he or she is instantly killed."

LadyRhian

That depends on how the God died. When Waukeen went missing during the time of troubles, another Goddess stepped in to grant her clerics spells, Lliira, I believe. If killed by another God, the God who did the killing may assume the Dead God's portfolio and grant his or her clerics spells. I believe the only other way to die is for a God to lose all of his or her worshippers, in which case, a God goes into stasis for eons and eventually dies. Amaunator is considered to be a Dead God, but his portfolio was partly assumed by Lathander. The Bedine remember Amaunator as At'ar. But he did come back, after the Spellplague, or so I hear.

When Bhaal died, most of his clergy ended up worshipping Cyric, who took over Bhaal's portfolio. Some of them did move on to other gods. Worshippers of Myrkul call Cyric "Cyruk" and maintain he's just another face of Myrkul. Some of Bane's worshippers moved on to Iyachtu Xvim, the half-divine son of Bane, but he was consumed when Bane returned from Death.

Cuan

Depends on the diety, as LadyRhian just mentioned. When Lloth went quiet, the drow priestesses and all other clerics who worship Lloth, they completely lost their ability to cast divine magic.

GoodSteve

It's never made completely clear what happens. Since gods in the FR setting get their power from the strength of and number of their worshippers it would seem that a god must die and have his followers move on/stop believing in him/her for the god to be truly dead (for all of his divine power to dissipate).

This is clearly shown by many "dead gods" still granting powers to followers. In 3.5 editon DnD there is a feat from Lost Empires of Faerun called Servant of the Fallen which lets you gain spells and domains from a dead god.

One god that was truly killed and all trace of her influence destroyed was Kiaransalee, the Drow goddess of the undead. In the War of the Spider Queen novels she was killed and a ritual was performed that made all of her followers forget her name and who she was making it impossible for them to continue to worship her. This was seemingly the only way to completely destroy her influence in a short amount of time.

However, to answer your second question, yes a worshipper can follow another deity to regain their spellcasting abilities. For example Fzoul Chembryl follows Bane until he and Torm destroy each other, then he follows Iyachtu Xvim until Xvim and his divine essence is consumed by Banes return so Fzoul once again follows Bane. There are also a number of Zhents who followed Bane, then Cyric, then converted back to Bane once he had returned.

Jolanthus

Allies of the dead god may also choose to accept the clergy of the dead deity.

Rexfaroensis

LadyRhian said:

That depends on how the God died. When Waukeen went missing during the time of troubles, another Goddess stepped in to grant her clerics spells, Lliira, I believe. If killed by another God, the God who did the killing may assume the Dead God's portfolio and grant his or her clerics spells. I believe the only other way to die is for a God to lose all of his or her worshippers, in which case, a God goes into stasis for eons and eventually dies. Amaunator is considered to be a Dead God, but his portfolio was partly assumed by Lathander. The Bedine remember Amaunator as At'ar. But he did come back, after the Spellplague, or so I hear.

When Bhaal died, most of his clergy ended up worshipping Cyric, who took over Bhaal's portfolio. Some of them did move on to other gods. Worshippers of Myrkul call Cyric "Cyruk" and maintain he's just another face of Myrkul. Some of Bane's worshippers moved on to Iyachtu Xvim, the half-divine son of Bane, but he was consumed when Bane returned from Death.

What, then, happens, if a goodly god is slain by an evil god? Surely the goodly god's portfolio can't be transferred to the evil god; not if it involves goodly things..?

sandmanCCL

LadyRhian said:

That depends on how the God died. When Waukeen went missing during the time of troubles, another Goddess stepped in to grant her clerics spells, Lliira, I believe. If killed by another God, the God who did the killing may assume the Dead God's portfolio and grant his or her clerics spells. I believe the only other way to die is for a God to lose all of his or her worshippers, in which case, a God goes into stasis for eons and eventually dies. Amaunator is considered to be a Dead God, but his portfolio was partly assumed by Lathander. The Bedine remember Amaunator as At'ar. But he did come back, after the Spellplague, or so I hear.

When Bhaal died, most of his clergy ended up worshipping Cyric, who took over Bhaal's portfolio. Some of them did move on to other gods. Worshippers of Myrkul call Cyric "Cyruk" and maintain he's just another face of Myrkul. Some of Bane's worshippers moved on to Iyachtu Xvim, the half-divine son of Bane, but he was consumed when Bane returned from Death.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Amaunator

Turns out Lathander was Amaunator all along. It's one of the stranger Forgotten Realms diety tables for sure.

But, yeah, when we're talking Forgotten Realms, there's all sorts of weird stuff going on in the divine world. It's part of what makes it so rich.

Talvrae

They keep theyr spells until they cast it... that's what happened in the Silence of Lolth... And often the god who replace the previous god will anwer the prayer and grant new spells

Rexfaroensis said:

What, then, happens, if a goodly god is slain by an evil god? Surely the goodly god's portfolio can't be transferred to the evil god; not if it involves goodly things..?

Another god will pick it up or be named instand... What happened to Midnight when she replaced Mystra

ajwz

The sad thing about the 4ed changes is that we are supposed to be sooooo shocked at the death of mystra while at the same time they have brought back about 4 different gods from the dead in the forgotton realms pantheon *sigh*

As to clerics, I think they will still be able to juggle and play the piano.

LadyRhian

@ajwz Shocked at the Death of Mystra? Why? It's happened at least twice that we know of. Once when Mystryl became Mystra (at the fall of Netheril) and again during the Time of Troubles (when she was slain by Helm) Midnight only replaced the former Mystra.

kilroy_was_here

In 3e a cleric doesn't even need to have a deity to cast spells. The can worship an alignment, or a place, or some random other stuff (like hats... or hamsters) and they still have access to all their divine powers... somehow.

sandmanCCL

@Kilroy_was_here: In the base D&D world, yes. However Forgotten Realms follows different rules.

Rules that are arbitrary and broken all the time. I retain that's part of the fun.

Mortianna

ajwz said:

As to clerics, I think they will still be able to juggle and play the piano.

*sigh of relief*

kilroy_was_here

@sandmanCCL Speaking of arbitrary, this always bothered me:

SPOILERS FOLLOW (and I don't know how to use the spoiler tag)



So in the BG-verse Amanautor is gone and his followers are A) guarding an artifact 'until the end of time' underneath Athkatla even though it has been so long their souls are decaying all murdered (including the last prophetess) in his temple in Umar Hills because his strength failed them.

And yet we find out that we was just pranking them and the whole time he was alive and well and had a thriving temple under his new name... and he's LAWFUL GOOD!!! A PC would never be allowed to get away with that kind of thing!

Makes me think that a good-aligned ascended CHARNAME could get away with wiping out Baldur's Gate because that one time back in the day those Flaming Fist guys gave him some lip.

Dee

kilroy_was_here said:

@sandmanCCL Speaking of arbitrary, this always bothered me:

SPOILERS FOLLOW (and I don't know how to use the spoiler tag)



So in the BG-verse Amanautor is gone and his followers are A) guarding an artifact 'until the end of time' underneath Athkatla even though it has been so long their souls are decaying all murdered (including the last prophetess) in his temple in Umar Hills because his strength failed them.

And yet we find out that we was just pranking them and the whole time he was alive and well and had a thriving temple under his new name... and he's LAWFUL GOOD!!! A PC would never be allowed to get away with that kind of thing!

Makes me think that a good-aligned ascended CHARNAME could get away with wiping out Baldur's Gate because that one time back in the day those Flaming Fist guys gave him some lip.

This is the problem with a franchise IP. You've got over a dozen people all writing stories in the same world, and not all of them have read each other's work. If Wizards of the Coast had actually played through that side-quest, Amaunator might have a markedly different mythology.

(Star Wars has the same problem; or did no one else notice how much less of an acrobat the New Order Jedi are, in comparison to the Jedi from Episodes I-III?)

kilroy_was_here

That has something to do with Yoda not being a muppet. If you don't believe me look it up.

...and if you don't know what a muppet is look that up too. (while my heart breaks a little inside)

Kaxon

LadyRhian's comments are good. It depends on the specifics. But I do remember in the 2nd edition Forgotten Realms supplement it specifically said that Cyric continued to grant spells to worshippers of the dead three.

LadyRhian

@Kilroy_was_here I think the problem was that only a small part of Amauntor made Lathander. It was almost like an actual other God. It wasn't until Amaunator's artifacts were found that the part of him that had been Amaunator re-awoke. And the worshippers of Amaunator were diseased because they had lost hope that they would ever be able to leave that place. Their wounds were wounds of the soul, not the body, and had caused the Hate-fragment to manifest. That's why you can't defeat it with swords, you have to literally heal it and the wounds that caused it to come into being.

Dragonspear

Depending, sometimes deities will encourage their followers to follow the god that has taken over in their stead. The best example of this is Tyr, who gave up his portfolios and his godhood to Torm after he killed Helm.

WonKo

I do so enjoy the idea of dead gods. Probably the part I enjoy the most of Faerun's mythology!

I guess it depends on DM discretion ultimately (Though there have been some excellently sourced answers above!).I'd personally err on the side of Clerics manifesting the afflictions of their diety (Like a stigmata) with the appropriate quest to cure it/change faiths.

lakrids

It can really ruin my day, when that happens

Eidolon

I think when a deity dies, another one picks up the portfolio and still allows clerics to cast their spells (this might however not happen overnight). They just come from a new god. There's several cases in the history of the Forgotten Realms where this happened like for instance when Cyric took over the portfolio of Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul during the Time of Trouble, which he later lost to other gods and the return of Bane.

LadyRhian

@Eidolon, Deities have some influence over their portfolios. Bhaal was actually god of Death, but he made that into causing death/i.e. murder. When Kelemvor wrested that away from Cyric, he became a very different God of Death- judging the souls who had passed over, hating undeath, etc. But they still had the same portfolio (death), they just interpreted it in different ways.

Eidolon

Yes, you are completely right. The deity does have influence over the portfolio, but I'm still not certain how that influences affected clerics. I would probably rule that the new God simply takes over the portfolio (in whatever way shape or form) and if the Cleric is willing to put his faith into the new God (whoever that may be) that the Cleric can continue casting spells. But you are right, this will require the Clerics in question to change faith as Cyric isn't quite the same god as Bane, or Bhaal. Cyric is a crazy lunatic whom PCs most likely won't worship.

LadyRhian

@Eidolon Indeed, the Cyrinishad, the book that was intended to make everyone into a worshipper of Cyric by reading it, drove Cyric crazy when he read it. I'm not sure what that says about Cyric...

HexHammer

Might depend on if it's a solo or host of dieties.

Maybe the secretary of the diety/dieties still remain to empower you.

Some new diety might be come to reality and take over where the other left.

Sure doubt that a diety wants to have a direct line to each and every holy person, but has a "thingy" doing the dirty work.

Eidolon

@LadyRhian Luckily Cyric is currently banished after his little trick (or I should say cold blooded murder) he pulled on Mystra, although Shar had a hand in that as well.