Well, at least in the sourcebooks, the Wall draws you in whole, and you are cemented in with green mold. Essentially, you become a body-shaped "brick" making up the wall. Over time, as more are cemented in on top of you, you are slowly dissolved and crushed into nothingness at the base of the wall. Those games sound like they massively conflict with the stuff established in Pen and Paper sourcebooks.
I think the whole thing about "wall of the faithless" is absurd as a storytelling device. It presumes the existence of "souls", and the power of "gods" over "souls", and seems to me to be clearly influenced by real-life religion.
The "gods" in a story need be nothing more than characters who are in some way fundamentally more advanced than the story characters and players, and who care about them enough to grant special powers to those who gain their favor.
The one idea from this whole mess that makes some sense to me is that the "gods" gain power and status from the "worship" of their underlings. Although, this makes them little different than the Goa'uld in Stargate. Or maybe the "good gods" would be more like the Tok'ra. So you could have both malevolent and benevolent transcendent beings influencing and granting powers to your characters in your game universe. And you could even have a neutral faction of "gods" who are analogous to the "Ancients".
When some DM tries to tell me that my character is doomed to the "Wall of the Faithless" because of his atheism, I have the same reaction to him or her that I have to any religious person in real life who tells me that I am "going to Hell", because I don't believe in his or her "god."
That is, "poppycock, baloney, nonsense, bullcrap, etc., etc."
Even Ed Greenwood was quite susceptible to the nonsense espoused in real-life mythology and religion, it seems. The whole enterprise comes from a complete denial of the reality and finality of death.
I might be misinterpreting here, but wasn't the wall of souls only for people who denied the existence of the gods entirely? Not just people who don't worship a specific patron god?
In a world where gods can intervene directly into the world via divine magic, surely this limits exile on the wall of souls to only people with a very idealogical philosophy on the non-existance of god. I think there was a class based on the concept in 3ed.
Regardless, mythology of individual worlds, like forgotten realm or greyhawk should be taken with a good pinch of salt, since the planescape setting makes clear that all these worlds and thier deities exist in the planes as part of the greater structure of the inner/outer planes system as described in the planescape source book. I alway considered this the definitive guide to planes, gods and religion, with any conflicts between this version and other settings resulting from the other settings lacking the greater persepective of planescape.
The hilarious thing is: if you don't want to lick a god's boot, the only exit is to sell your soul, be tortured in hell for some time, absorb infernal energy, become a demon, raise in the ranks and live forever... is that right?
I completely respect the fact that your atheist...BUT
Why would your character (Assuming hes playing in a Forgotten Realms campaign) be atheist?
He would have to be bat-shit retarded to deny that the gods exist (again, talking about faerun)
its like reverse-christianity "I refuse to believe the scientific fact of evolution because my special book says it doesn't exist" (and in faerun, the gods are a fact, since the time of troubles happened)
I also don't really understand the atheist argument. I'm an agnostic myself and I have no problem with the way the Gods, and the Wall of Souls work in Forgotten Realms. It's a fantasy realm. You are roleplaying. Just because you are an atheist in real life doesn't mean your character has to be an atheist. I personally like the idea of the Wall. Besides why would the gods care for your soul if you don't care for them. It's a double sided blade.
I might be misinterpreting here, but wasn't the wall of souls only for people who denied the existence of the gods entirely? Not just people who don't worship a specific patron god?
In a world where gods can intervene directly into the world via divine magic, surely this limits exile on the wall of souls to only people with a very idealogical philosophy on the non-existance of god. I think there was a class based on the concept in 3ed.
Yea I think you are right. I don't necessarily think you have to worship a God, you just need to acknowledge their existence.
Forgotten Realms is weird like that. There are cases of powerful clerics with powerful divine magic who's god is simply dead. Theories are Ao grants clerical powers to humans that continue to worship a dead pantheon.
This is true, but can a god truly die? Gods are given so much credit, but often it is mortals who's faith in numbers/zeal grant the god power. Even if a god is defeated/slain, if powerful followers still pray, believe, and practice, is the god truly dead?
It actually changed at the Time of Troubles. Beforehand, Gods were not powered by worshippers- they simply were, for better or worse. Afterwards, Ao made it so that the Gods were limited by the Power of their number of worshippers- so one of the ways to kill a God is to kill off his worshippers. If there are none left, the God will die (eventually).
@ajwz@Eidolon If you just have to acknowledge a god's existence then why did
Bishop
end up on the wall? I'm pretty sure he acknowledges the existence of gods, he just sees no purpose in worshiping one. In MotB:
"The man you knew as Bishop lies encased in a quivering greenish mold. His limbs are twisted at odd angles as if they are broken. His face - frozen in a grimace of pain - barely clears the surface of the wall, like the face of a drowning man, gasping for air."
This sounds like a horrible scenario for refusing to see gods as superior beings... One should just become a lich and retire to Sigil.
@neleothesze Yes you are right I just checked my Forgotten Realms rulebook. You must have a patron deity (however this does not prevent you from worshiping other gods as well) otherwise when you die you'll spend an eternity on the Wall of the Faithless.
If clerics of Ao supposedly don't die and don't go to the realm of their god what happens if you decide to be a follower of Ao? You technically can't go to the wall of the faithless but Ao doesn't give a ... about you, he concerns himself with gods, not mortals.
Also, what if a mortal picks another deity not concerned with mortals?
@Eidolon the gods concern themselfs enough with mortal souls that don't worship them to force those sous on the wall. To be put on the wall, every spirit of a fallen peson is judged by the actual god of dead (Kelemvor atm), if no god reclaim that soul, the destiny of that person is the wall of the faithless.
The wall of faithless is a recent thing anywan, it was created by Myrkul, one of the dead three, and an evil god by the way.
And i also agree with you @neleothesze, undead apparently is a very good exit to avoid the wall, if we look on the greater plan, any kind of undeath (that keep the soul) is better than be locked on the wall.
I find too strange that a god of justice (one of kelemvor portfolios) would allow a creation that represents exactly tiranny and fear, an clearly form of injustice, to exist IN HIS REALM.
Ps: Irenicus and Bodhi where stripped from their souls by the seldarine... so they're luck in fact as their souls are locked away safe and sound...now what's punishment and what's reward?
And i also agree with you @neleothesze, undead apparently is a very good exit to avoid the wall, if we look on the greater plan, any kind of undeath (that keep the soul) is better than be locked on the wall.
Undeath is really only an option for Mages... Unless you want to be bitten by a vampire, or turned into a shade.
I find too strange that a god of justice (one of kelemvor portfolios) would allow a creation that represents exactly tiranny and fear, an clearly form of injustice, to exist IN HIS REALM.
Kelemvor and Mystra were accused by the Circle of Greater Gods of being guilty of Incompetence by Humanity. He then conducted the Re-evaluation, where all souls in the City were to be judged according to new criteria, then be sentenced to new places in the City. Souls being judged will not find torture, but neither will they find joy. They will exist with souls ethically similar to themselves.
Comments
The "gods" in a story need be nothing more than characters who are in some way fundamentally more advanced than the story characters and players, and who care about them enough to grant special powers to those who gain their favor.
The one idea from this whole mess that makes some sense to me is that the "gods" gain power and status from the "worship" of their underlings. Although, this makes them little different than the Goa'uld in Stargate. Or maybe the "good gods" would be more like the Tok'ra. So you could have both malevolent and benevolent transcendent beings influencing and granting powers to your characters in your game universe. And you could even have a neutral faction of "gods" who are analogous to the "Ancients".
When some DM tries to tell me that my character is doomed to the "Wall of the Faithless" because of his atheism, I have the same reaction to him or her that I have to any religious person in real life who tells me that I am "going to Hell", because I don't believe in his or her "god."
That is, "poppycock, baloney, nonsense, bullcrap, etc., etc."
Even Ed Greenwood was quite susceptible to the nonsense espoused in real-life mythology and religion, it seems. The whole enterprise comes from a complete denial of the reality and finality of death.
In a world where gods can intervene directly into the world via divine magic, surely this limits exile on the wall of souls to only people with a very idealogical philosophy on the non-existance of god. I think there was a class based on the concept in 3ed.
Regardless, mythology of individual worlds, like forgotten realm or greyhawk should be taken with a good pinch of salt, since the planescape setting makes clear that all these worlds and thier deities exist in the planes as part of the greater structure of the inner/outer planes system as described in the planescape source book.
I alway considered this the definitive guide to planes, gods and religion, with any conflicts between this version and other settings resulting from the other settings lacking the greater persepective of planescape.
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I completely respect the fact that your atheist...BUT
Why would your character (Assuming hes playing in a Forgotten Realms campaign) be atheist?
He would have to be bat-shit retarded to deny that the gods exist (again, talking about faerun)
its like reverse-christianity "I refuse to believe the scientific fact of evolution because my special book says it doesn't exist" (and in faerun, the gods are a fact, since the time of troubles happened)
At least in AD&D and 3e a God's power was very much derived from the amount of followers that they have.
Also, what if a mortal picks another deity not concerned with mortals?
The wall of faithless is a recent thing anywan, it was created by Myrkul, one of the dead three, and an evil god by the way.
And i also agree with you @neleothesze, undead apparently is a very good exit to avoid the wall, if we look on the greater plan, any kind of undeath (that keep the soul) is better than be locked on the wall.
I find too strange that a god of justice (one of kelemvor portfolios) would allow a creation that represents exactly tiranny and fear, an clearly form of injustice, to exist IN HIS REALM.
Ps: Irenicus and Bodhi where stripped from their souls by the seldarine... so they're luck in fact as their souls are locked away safe and sound...now what's punishment and what's reward?