Viconia isn't just a Drow, she's a priestess of an evil goddess. That's not just a declaration of alignment, it's a declaration of intent to corrupt good and spread evil. Keldorn or any paladin would be justified in attacking her.
"Love is a lie, only hate endures." - Shar
Attacking someone for just what he/she is would not justify an attempt of murder for a Paladin. Keldorn is just poorly written for the sake of adding party conflict. His out of nowhere coming attack on Viconia would normally cause him to fall. Now, it would have been interesting if that were to happen in the game, unfortunately the writers didn't. As a general comment on the topic, well it is a Bioware game, plain and simple. And joinable Bioware-NPCs are always written to be likeable, regardless of their alignment.
It looks to me like you're projecting real world attitudes into a fantasy world. In this fantasy world there are powers that are literally fighting for the causes of good or evil. Keldorn is an officer in the armed forces of the Church of Helm, Viconia is an officer in the armed forces of the Church of Shar. These forces are locked in a defacto war. Helm isn't going to take away Keldorn's paladin powers for killing a Sharian priestess, he'd be more likely to punish him for taking too long to do it in the first place. There's a reason why followers of Shar are supposed to keep their allegiance secret. Viconia is an idiot for revealing her devotion in front of Keldorn.
EDIT: Thinking about this after I posted, I've come to the conclusion that it isn't Keldorn who's acting out of character, it's Viconia. She's a piss-poor cleric of Shar. Shar is a goddess of darkness and corruption. Her followers are supposed to work in secret to corrupt the good and the innocent and turn them to evil. She should be nudging Charname to the path of expediency and evil, she should have encouraged Anomen to seek vengeance instead of justice. Her romance should be more about seducing charname and trying to influence his behavior. Thinking about it now, I have no idea why Shar continues to grant her spells. So here's an alternate ending to the Keldorn/Viconia conflict: Instead of killing her, he says: "Normally it would be my duty to execute any cleric of Shar I find, but you're so bad at your job that I've decided you're basically harmless."
It looks to me like you're projecting real world attitudes into a fantasy world. In this fantasy world there are powers that are literally fighting for the causes of good or evil. Keldorn is an officer in the armed forces of the Church of Helm, Viconia is an officer in the armed forces of the Church of Shar. These forces are locked in a defacto war. Helm isn't going to take away Keldorn's paladin powers for killing a Sharian priestess, he'd be more likely to punish him for taking too long to do it in the first place. There's a reason why followers of Shar are supposed to keep their allegiance secret. Viconia is an idiot for revealing her devotion in front of Keldorn.
There is a Temple of Talos just 2 blocks away from the Order of the Radiant Heart. Do see Paladins openly attacking their Clerics in the streets? No. Paladins don't go on killing sprees just because of different ethical views. They are not only good, but also lawful. Killing people not guilty of a crime doesn't blend in with that. Btw, Helm is a neutral deity, not that it would matter in this case, as Keldorn is a Paladin of Torm. Also, there is no Church of Shar.
It looks to me like you're projecting real world attitudes into a fantasy world. In this fantasy world there are powers that are literally fighting for the causes of good or evil. Keldorn is an officer in the armed forces of the Church of Helm, Viconia is an officer in the armed forces of the Church of Shar. These forces are locked in a defacto war. Helm isn't going to take away Keldorn's paladin powers for killing a Sharian priestess, he'd be more likely to punish him for taking too long to do it in the first place. There's a reason why followers of Shar are supposed to keep their allegiance secret. Viconia is an idiot for revealing her devotion in front of Keldorn.
There is a Temple of Talos just 2 blocks away from the Order of the Radiant Heart. Do see Paladins openly attacking their Clerics in the streets? No. Paladins don't go on killing sprees just because of different ethical views. They are not only good, but also lawful. Killing people not guilty of a crime doesn't blend in with that. Btw, Helm is a neutral deity, not that it would matter in this case, as Keldorn is a Paladin of Torm. Also, there is no Church of Shar.
Politics does play a part. Talos and Umberlee tend to be more tolerated since sailors and farmers often make offerings to try to appease them. Also, those churches don't actively work towards corruption the way Shar does.
EDIT: BTW, @jinxed75 I edited my post above around the same time you were writing your answer to it. I don't know if you saw that.
It looks to me like you're projecting real world attitudes into a fantasy world. In this fantasy world there are powers that are literally fighting for the causes of good or evil.
I am pessimistic but seems to me that projecting real world attitudes into a fantasy world leads exactly to what you describe. I don't want to debate about the last 20 years or so, too much risk of starting some flame. But the recent or less recent past of the real world? When the British Raj was splitted in India and Pakistan maybe 20 million people was massacred, in the name of goodness, and both the parts belived to be the good one. Europe, few centuries ago? Other millions people massacred and burnt on the fire, like viky, for being Jews, witches, heretical, millions, I think 3 o 4 millions on a population far less numerous then today. And the crusades, the blood running through the streets of Damascus like brooks. Is all in the history books. and that was done by good people in the name of goodnes. And in the books can be found so many other examples. The good people of these examples was Christian, Muslim, Hindu, the 3 religions that have much followers. This is something not related to a single religion or a single historical period. Maybe who invented FR projected perfectly real world attitudes into a fantasy world.
So nothing strange if a member of the Church of Thorm can kill a member of the Church of Shar, even if she is a comrade, if maybe she had put to risk her life to save his life in the last fight. This has nothing to do whith her being good or evil, the evil korgan is tollerated and appreciated. I am convinced, keldorn do the only logical thing he could do. And Viconia is an idiot ( I just can't explain to me how a pally can win against a cleric, but this is related to game mechanics, if I had the control over her character during the fight he would never had a chance, turn paladins aside). Also this is maybe a more prosaic reason to explain why the developers decided that their presence in the party is not possible, once she reach the appropriate level and turns undeads keldorn get turned and incapacitated.
And about the Temple of Talos just 2 blocks away from the Order of the Radiant Heart let's see the cleric quest. The final goal of both the good and evil church is to massacre the rivals, in both plots the talos follower make the first move, but even so all that "forgive your unfaithful wife" lead to "charname go to massacre all the priests of Talos". Obviously in the name of goodnes.
I think the whole good vs. evil (especially INHERENT good vs. INHERENT evil) debate is philosophically too complex for a fantasy world.
The usual "miracle exemption" of fictional concepts probably applies, and you just assume the existence and definition of inherent good/evil as a given axiom without need for further explanation. Doesn't sit well with some of our real-world sensibilities but it's the only viable solution I see that doesn't degenerate into a long-winded and probably end-/resultless philosophical debate.
Given the axioms, though, you can totally explore self-consistency. I agree that the characterization we witness in BG is a bit out of whack with the underlying concepts. Not a problem endemic to BG either, you often see supposedly "good" characters twisted into fanatics that are anything but - which doesn't work with a concept of INHERENT good, only with a concept of relative and subjective good as we know it from the real world. The alternative would probably simply be too strange and too confusing for the audience (though I personally think it could make for some intriguing stories).
@gorgonzola I'm not sure what you're trying to say by bringing up all those real world atrocities, you seem to be trying to argue against my point, but instead I think you are bolstering it. In each of those cases the perpetrators may have believed they were doing good, but looking back, we know they were wrong. None of the victims of those massacres was really trying to destroy the world, no matter what their killers said.
In the Forgotten Realms, that's not the case. Shar and her church really are trying to corrupt all good, destroy the Weave and extinguish the sun. And Viconia is not some yahoo who just joined up, she's a high level cleric in this organization.
I can't think of real world parallel to this, so I'm getting my inspiration from Hollywood. It's 1944 and British SAS officer Keldorn is on a mission behind enemy lines. He's just found out the team medic is really a Colonel in the Gestapo. What do you expect him to do?
If I was a DM and a paladin character decided to look the other way after discovering a cleric of Shar, I'd have to warn that player his paladin was in danger of falling.
@BillyYank I was not arguing against your point about killing Viconia, just telling that projecting real world attitudes into that fantasy world is not misleading. Atrocities here and there, in the name of goodnes. Maybe in FR there is inherent evil, and shar is part of it. But Viconia is not Shar. She is evil, she is a cleric of Shar, but she is not inherently evil, she can change and she will change if charname romances her and make the right choices. But keldorn, if he kill her because of Shar and not only for being a drow, have good reason to do it. I see the logic in it, but is a logic that sets some problems. Because is the same logic of the people who was burning alive witches an heretics. You say "none of the victims of those massacres was really trying to destroy the world" but an inquisitor would have said that witches are servants of the devil trying to conduct to the perdition people's souls and heretics was perverting the true religion for the same purpose. They had good reasons to do what they did. Now we know that most if not all of the witches was not witches at all and that the intention of the heretics catars or followers of Valdo was not so. And we know from the epilogues, both if romanced or not, that Viki has no part in the word destruction. Do you se how close are that game and reality? May be there is an absoute inherent evil, but is not given to the man to discriminate and to differentiate it from the relative one. A man that arrogates the right to do it it usurps the role of God. Fighting Shar, in that word where inherent evil exists, is obviously righteous. To judge the soul of other men, and not their acts, and to condemn them for this is a different thing. that's my point of wiew about keldorn and Viconia.
In the next days I will not be at home an don't know if I can mange to find an internet connection, so I guess that my next log in that stimulating toic will be over.
Did anyone noticed that the evil NPCs in the game are often very considerate (just occasional selfishness), while some of the so called "good" or "neutal" aligned NPCs are somewhat extremists and actually rather "evil" in deeds?.
Example : Hexxat is basically pretty kind at heart if you noticed her conversations. Non of the Evil NPCs star a fight with the good ones. The so called good aligned NPCs always starts the fight and always attempts to kill them or kick them out of the party.
Makes me wonder who is truely the bad guys ^^
[Spoilers for certain EE and vanilla questlines.]
Well, I personally think that Hexxat is miscategorised. She should be Lawful Evil. She's highly organised, professional, and rule oriented in her behaviour (she also makes mention to things being orderly in her banters), as well as being consistent in her villainy.
But yeah, Hexxat brings out all the OOC in her interactions, I wouldn't use anyone interacting with her as an example.
Anyway, on the topic of alignment, I'm just coming to an end of a CN playthrough through the whole series, Ravayu Atar, and I (and he) have come to the conclusion that good guys can do okay sometimes, but paladins are the true threat to the realms.
Ajantis - stomps up and demands you stand and deliver identify. If you respond to his rudeness in kind, he turns hostile.
This is a paladin, someone who has the inbuilt ability to detect evil, and he's not only harassing travellers, he's mindlessly attacking people because they make him angry.
This isn't the first or only time this happens, Paladins randomly scan your party for people of evil alignment and attack if they find any, and constantly turn hostile if you're not adequately subservient towards them.
As an aside, how messed up is it to attack someone for pinging evil? Your average "evil farmer" might cheat his neighbour out of a few gold coins, but he's not going to cause much trouble overall, and he may well have a wife, children, and be providing jobs to his local community. Attacking someone for their alignment scan is thought crimes, and Paladins the justified killsquads of the establishment.
Move onto BG2. Paladins are here too, right?
Keldorn Firecam, he's a nice guy, right? Fair and moderate?
Try being rude to him and it's clear that he's an aggressive madman who takes your refusal to tell him what you're up to as vindication to turn hostile and try to kill you. Why? Because you weren't respectful enough, no other reason.
Poor Ravayu leaves the paladin corpse to visit the Windspear Hills to exterminate some ogres. But they're secretly paladins? How could this be avoided? By asking to talk? Of course not, Ajantis the sociopathic "servant of good" refuses to parley, he attacks!
What's the good solution in the Umar Hills? To talk to the ogres, find out the truth, and defuse tensions between them and the town to avoid needless bloodshed. Just because they're ogrish doesn't mean they're inevitably bad.
But that was because of the illusions, surely regular paladins would stop and talk first!
Sure, they talk just long enough to send you out to murder their former members, most of whom aren't even that bad, just not perfect on the Paladin's black and white moral code. Hiring the head of the local thieves' guild to assassinate an ex-member? Is that the action of a goodly organisation? I think not.
And poor Anomen, before Garren Windspear arrived, he was informed that his sister has been murdered! No time to talk mister Windspear, we need to travel to town immediately. Surely we can explain ourselves to the authorities when they question us, or they can raise their dead paladin friends and discover that they were slain by evil ogres, not a confused knightly squire or his love interest, the disinterested male elf, right?
Wrong. High level paladin party ambushes you in the slums district, intentionally using (demi)human shields to stop you from using your own AOE attacks.
How is that messed up? They're just trying to bring you to justice for your supposed crimes, right?
Think about the Suldanessellan forces. They're in the middle of a freaking war, some bloodied figures emerge from the underdark, possibly feeling a bit snippy after having to slaughter an entire drow city. What do they do?
They bring you over to their leadership, and call over a few spellcasters who... Can discern truth from lies. Just like any goodly cleric should be able to. They ask questions to find out what you're about and if you're friend or foe, and then they send you on your way.
Yes, in the Paladin mindset they are judge, jury and executioner, there's no room for "arrest" or "innocence until proven guilty" for Paladins, they're not even interested in a trial. But what makes it worse?
You can visit Lunia, the plane of Tyr and his paladins. There you can discover that they are, in fact, massively gullible. You can convince them that you, the short elvish one in a wizard's robe, are a new paladin of Tyr, that you are on a holy quest (assuredly not the case), and just lean past them to achieve your goal and leave, possibly directing the forces of good to target completely innocent parties in the process.
So yes, not only are Paladins extremists, racists (no Mazzy, no halfling paladins) they're also extremely, ridiculously, gullible. These are the people supposed to enforce justice? It's no surprise hat Tyr is the god who straight up murders Helm, a fellow Paladin deity (his paladins are usually less terrible too) the god of duty and behaving himself, because Cyric told him that Helm was macking on Tymora.
And the clincher, the organisations that generally wanted Ravayu the neutral, generally heroic, elf dead by the end?
Indeed. The thing about the Drow is that both genetics and environment are working together to make them evil. And it's not just the all-my-uncles/aunties/cousins-are-evil part, the Drow are a tainted people. The Ilythiiri (the original dark elves) merely had dark brown skin, it was through the influence of demons like Wendonai that the dark elves become the ebony-skinned Drow (you'll find that in wikis). Evil is in their very being. So yeah. You could say that Drizzt is an EXTREMELY unique case. Most non-evil drow are merely neutral.
And the reason why people attack Drow on sight is because AT LEAST 90% of the time, when Drow show up in the surface they're doing raids. Rape, torture and murder of the helpless/innocents/children, etc. Keldorn is old and experienced enough to have probably encountered the victims of Drow raids in his lifetime. Combined with Viconia's attitude/admission that she serves Shar, you can understand why he acts that way.
Drow aren't evil by genetics, and while Drizzt is a unique case, that's because his righteousness is rather... extreme. There are many more good drow than just him (albeit still a narrow minority of the race). Besides, yes, it's true that the drow are tainted by Wendonai, but:
1)His blood is very ''diluted'', because it dates back to 10k years ago, and beacuse it was passed second hand to most drow, through breeding, since originally it was only the Ilythiiri nobles and mages to consort with him (besides, commoners or farmers or workers had nothing to do with him, as Lolth sent him to seduce the rulers, not the random people).
2)There are many cases of non-evil drow in the FR, who have simply chosen to another path when they found (or were given) an opportunity. Known examples are the followers of Eilistraee: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee. If you read the article, it says that all drow feel her song, and many of them secretely long for the love and joy that she offers them, albeit few ever do anything about it (because of fear, because they are troubled by what they feel, or other reasons, but all of them feel the goodess). This means that there is no inherent cruelty within them, and its mostly Lolth that forces them to reject all the beautiful things in life and turn them into her puppets.
And if you say that all the followers of the Dark Maiden were changed by Q'arlynd Melarn in their original form, and that for that reason there are only ''genetically'' evil drow now, that's not true. Because it isn't reasonable to say that the followers of the Dark Maiden included every single non-evil drow at the time (and that children or other drow couldn't later choose to reject Lolth), and because Eilistraee is gaining new drow followers in the current era, after her return (1480s DR, much later than the time in which BG is set). Besides, Ed Greenwood said that drow raised among the Eilistraeeans are not evil (unless they choose to, like a human would), and that in 1370s DR about 20% of the drow worshiped Eilistraee, among other deities (Vhaeraun had even more at the time, leaving Lolth with about half the race). In short, the drow evil is mostly due to brainwashing and context and Lolth's breathing on their necks.
Saying that drow are genetically evil contradicts a lot of previously established FR lore.
3)Tieflings carry so much fiendish blood within them, that it has repercussions on their appearance, and yet it is explicitly stated in the 5e PHB that they are not genetically evil. So why should drow, who have like a drop of fiendish blood in them, be genetically evil?
As a rule of thumb, nothing in the Realms is always X (or always X but 1 or 2 super-dudes), and things rarely are black and white. Ed Greenwood built the setting around variety and nuances, not around fixed, almost unbreakable rules.
I'm playing a Neutral Evil Assassin currently, and I justify a lot of my choices as "doing what is the best and most expedient way of getting what I want." For example, I was pleasant to Valygar, and I even invited him to join me so we could go to the Planar Sphere. However, as soon as his back was turned, I - quite literally - stabbed him in the back so I could use his body to get into the Planar Sphere on my own. I will help people, but only if the rewards are adequate. If a reward is promised, yet I don't know what it is and won't until I've done the task, I will still do the task and consider taking the life of the person that gave me said reward if I'm not amply rewarded afterwards. Sometimes I will help someone just so I can hide in plain sight, and blend in. Ultimately, the general population are just objects that are in the way of me obtaining absolute power. A power that is my birthright. If it means suffering their irritating company, then so be it.
@Irennan Yes, you are right about Ed Greenwood, unlike initial Gygax led concept (but it is still stated DM is free to alter anything as they see fit), FR is far more complex and mature compared to the initial Greyhawk which was fairly B&W in concept.
@Irennan Yes, you are right about Ed Greenwood, unlike initial Gygax led concept (but it is still stated DM is free to alter anything as they see fit), FR is far more complex and mature compared to the initial Greyhawk which was fairly B&W in concept.
DMs are always free to alter stuff as needed, it doesn't even need to be stated IMO. I could have the drow w/o Lolth, swap their roles with the elves, make Corellon the new elven ''Lolth'', and Eilistraee the main drow deity. Or I could turn them into the Warhammer Dark Elves, and nothing would stop me (as long as my players are ok with that).
@Irennan Naturally, however, in the early days of Gygax, there wasn't that much literature and books or modules readily available (especially when one do not live in US) and things are pretty expensive back then for a teemage to afford any of those guide books or magazines. Thus during those days we have limited imaginations and limited funds ^^ (early 1980s)
@Irennan Naturally, however, in the early days of Gygax, there wasn't that much literature and books or modules readily available (especially when one do not live in US) and things are pretty expensive back then for a teemage to afford any of those guide books or magazines. Thus during those days we have limited imaginations and limited funds ^^ (early 1980s)
Yeah, that's also true. It's easy to forget that when we currently have a huge amount of info and inspiration easily and cheaply--or freely (wiki)-- available.
The point is that genetics and environment are working together to make them evil. Whether they actually are genetically evil or not is something best left to people who get paid to come up with this sort of thing (tainted genes, cursed chromosomes, etc. is too complicated).
AFAIK, few beings in D&D do not get a choice to be good or evil. It gets worse with D&D literature, where alignment is more of a guideline than something you have to follow because your DM is threatening you with whatever.
The point is that genetics and environment are working together to make them evil. Whether they actually are genetically evil or not is something best left to people who get paid to come up with this sort of thing (tainted genes, cursed chromosomes, etc. is too complicated).
AFAIK, few beings in D&D do not get a choice to be good or evil. It gets worse with D&D literature, where alignment is more of a guideline than something you have to follow because your DM is threatening you with whatever.
But that's not true for the drow *in the Realms*, as the examples that I've already posted and Eilistraee herself (which are all canon) show. If you took a human, elven (or whatever race) child and put them in a Lolthite context, raising them as the drow followers of Lolth are, they'd likely behave in the same way.
If drow are 100% evil in GH or another setting, that doesn't extend to the Realms. In this setting, it wouldn't make sense to make the drow ''genetically/magically/inherently'' evil, because of their history and--again--because there are many examples to prove that it is not the case.
The only beings that I'm sure are 100% X-aligned, are outsiders, because they literally are concepts made substance. I think that even for creatures like Illithids, ''evil'' is an arguable term: although that would be very macabre, you could say that most of them do the same thing that humans do with cattle (so, ''a threat to be destroyed regardless'' would be a more fitting description than ''evil'', IMO).
Imo this talk about drows being inherently evil doesn't make sense to me. I'd rather keep my idea that drows are simply harshly raised to fit a certain mold. Young drows aren't given much option. Either you act certain way or you're destroyed. Is there any middleground ? Most of them are forced to become"evil alligned" and digest that barbaric cruel culture. And because it has been going for so long, some features which are beneficial to this kind of culture to flourish are likely more dominant in their gene pool.
However there is always a chance for redemption, but it is not easy for an individual to break away from such cultural makeup. Imagine if you're expect to fight for your place all the time... There is simply no place for weak. Mercy, sensitivity, kindness etc are all seen negative qualities which are rooted out as early as possible.
@Caradoc Yeah, real life examples living in places like Afghanistan etc ... real harsh and they grow up to do things that others in the world may classify as evil or inhumane etc ..
@Bubbles, you don't have to live in Afghanistan, even the western countries do things that about half of the word classify as evil or inhumane. The only thing that the whole word share is how the populations are educated (or indoctrinated if you prefer) by the elites who really decide to perceive as good or bad different things. A kamikaze with explosives hidden behind clothes can be perceived as a mad and an evil person or as a true hero who immolate his own life fighting for the right cause, it depends only on how the elite dominating your country want that you perceive him. And somehow killing civilians exploding with them or remote controlling a drone or bombing aqueducts and hospitals imho is not very different. If in the past the war was a fair thing, and I think it never was so, is from WW2 and the bombing of cities and civil population, both by Germans and Allies, that is not so. Excuse me for the OT.
Imo this talk about drows being inherently evil doesn't make sense to me. I'd rather keep my idea that drows are simply harshly raised to fit a certain mold. Young drows aren't given much option. Either you act certain way or you're destroyed. Is there any middleground ? Most of them are forced to become"evil alligned" and digest that barbaric cruel culture. And because it has been going for so long, some features which are beneficial to this kind of culture to flourish are likely more dominant in their gene pool.
However there is always a chance for redemption, but it is not easy for an individual to break away from such cultural makeup. Imagine if you're expect to fight for your place all the time... There is simply no place for weak. Mercy, sensitivity, kindness etc are all seen negative qualities which are rooted out as early as possible.
Indeed. The vast majority of drow don't even have a choice when it comes to decide what to do with their life, or how to fulfill themselves. They are simply forced to do what Lolth's dogma says: their society is what it is because it's ultimately about self-denial for the will of that goddess.
In the end, it's a matter of brainwashing, isolation, and of making sure that the drow perceive their current existence as the only possibility. Once they are made to understand (or spontaneously understand) that there are alternatives that lead to an actually enjoyable life (and I'm not talking exclusively aout ''goodly'' alternatives, just any choice that isn't the crazy, self-destroying evil of Lolth), many will embrace that.
It's also why Eilistraee's (and even her brother's Vhaeraun) work is so much difficult, since they have to inject new ideas in such a stagnant society, where every chance if progress is immediately shut down by the priestesses of Lolth, who are interested in keeping the status quo.
Alignment is a tricky beast. Actions are easily judged, and can be incorrectly judged with out knowing the heart and mind of the person/ character. Edit: Unless we are talking about the inherit evil that involves crimes against children, there is no fixing that kind of evil in my eyes and should be destroyed.
Drow are taught that the surface is evil as are the populace of the surface world, especially the surface elves. Most will never learn the truth, simply because they will never be in the position of learning differently.
Paladins: because they are vowed to be Lawful can do terrible things following orders of the superiors in their order or King to whom they have sworn fealty. Even with that they are not infallible and can make mistakes.
Harpers: especially in the BG series are the UN of the Forgotten Realms. Let me explain my thoughts on the Untied Nations simply. UN = Ubiquitous Nose. Therefore the Harpers can cause huge rifts by micro managing the inner workings of the realm, and nearly succeed in BG 2.
In the real world : There are bad choices made for War. War Does have a place and sadly many who wage war are not strategists. I believe If the teachings of Sun Tzu where followed then a good half of the conflicts would not happen, or would be over quickly.
In Gaming: War is a tool used for story telling. Actions and consequences of decisions can become the path of war or lessen the likely hood of war with other methods of conflict resolution. Many gamers find Battles exciting, and the genre would suffer with out a war or two.
The Us verses Them mentality transcends both Real life and Fiction. Gaming in my eyes can be a higher form of literature when good writers are given the opportunity of developing characters and story lines.
@Notabarbiegirl, you are definitely quite neutral good in alignment xD Knowledge is like a knife .... (it has no alignment ^^) ... how the Art of War is used is like the knife ...
As a former DM on D&D and Forgotten Realms campaign, the simplier way to discern good from evil alignment is to wonder: if that character was put in choice of either a perfect stranger, yet innocent being, dies... or they dies... what will they choose?
This is why all vampires are evil by nature: for them to exist, they have to sacrifice others. Those other could be innocent or not is not a matter. A good vampire will just cease to exist very quickly, and in fact does: not all being becoming vampires do accept to sacrifice others for their sake, and some of them just let themselves die of starvation.
A neutral vampire would be something like a being putting extreme effort to locate the worst scum humanity can have, so they can feed on them only. Still, that vampire will not be "good". It's still killing people just for his own profit, he just avoid innocent ones to keep balance.
I feel like most NPC have the right alignement for their personalities. Viconia WILL kill an innocent stranger for her own sake. Without a doubt. That's even without considering she prays an evil goddess.
Yet she won't do it without provocation because she basically just wants to be left alone, unlike Korgan, who wants to get rich and likes killing stuff (he won't harm children, but everyone else is fair game) or Edwin, who wants power above all else.
Unlike other evil NPCs Viconia's actually teetering between True Neutral/Neutral Evil, though you'll never know this unless you romance her and find out just how confused/conflicted she really is. Sarevok is a special case. The guy lost everything, died and, against all odds, came back. That's a whole different can of worms.
Regarding Keldorn vs Viconia I'd say all things considered Bioware did what they could given the situation. If you want to go by what is laid out in the Complete Paladin's Handbook strictly speaking when it comes to paladins any association with an evil-aligned character can be considered an evil act in and of itself. Ultimately they struck a balance between having NPC's usable in different party combinations while at the same time respecting their alignments and any other requirements they may have.
@elminster Yet the Radiant Heart live peacefully near Temple of Talos in Athkatla ^^ knowing their neighbor is assuredly evil ^^ and with a nice big temple to glorify their evil deity. Oh well ^^, fanatics do things in the name of their gods (meaning those paladins) and that seemed to justify the goodness of their actions(picking on a lone drow who in their presence has not done eny evil deeds) and yet if the Charname do an evil act (while reputation is still within tolerance) is never openly challenged ^^ (all in the name of goodness) ^^. All in all too many alignment loopholes ^^.
@elminster Yet the Radiant Heart live peacefully near Temple of Talos in Athkatla ^^ knowing their neighbor is assuredly evil ^^ and with a nice big temple to glorify their evil deity.
Right but they don't associate with them. That is the difference. I'm certainly not suggesting its a perfect implementation (a charname that worships Talos for instance won't get similar treatment) but inevitably there will always be these kinds of writing loopholes.
I don't think it's about that. They're in Athkatla - they have to agree to the terms of ruling council/government, ie, "Behave or we'll kick you out of the city".
Which would you think would further the greater cause of Talos/Torm/Helm/Lathander/etc - killing a few low level clerics of the opposite faction or the opportunity to convert/recruit thousands to their faith?
@Nuin Well, in the case of Keldorn, he initiates conflict without looking at the "greater good" Charname is achieving ^^. Anyway did anyone noticed something about Paladins as a whole? Those that remain as Paladins in their entire life tends to be lawfully stupid (hence most paladins you see in D&D don't have high INT scores) while those intelligent Paladins tend to be targeted by the like of Demogorgon etc to be converted to Death Knights ^^ (hence Death Knights tend to be quite intelligent) ^^.
Just a gentle reminder, this is meant to be a casual discussion so hope no one gets too offended or what so ever ^^ (I am just dead bored and I just bought BGEE hahaha ... oh dear I am lost with low levels after hanging around BG2EE for too long X_X)
Comments
EDIT:
Thinking about this after I posted, I've come to the conclusion that it isn't Keldorn who's acting out of character, it's Viconia. She's a piss-poor cleric of Shar. Shar is a goddess of darkness and corruption. Her followers are supposed to work in secret to corrupt the good and the innocent and turn them to evil. She should be nudging Charname to the path of expediency and evil, she should have encouraged Anomen to seek vengeance instead of justice. Her romance should be more about seducing charname and trying to influence his behavior. Thinking about it now, I have no idea why Shar continues to grant her spells.
So here's an alternate ending to the Keldorn/Viconia conflict: Instead of killing her, he says: "Normally it would be my duty to execute any cleric of Shar I find, but you're so bad at your job that I've decided you're basically harmless."
Paladins don't go on killing sprees just because of different ethical views. They are not only good, but also lawful. Killing people not guilty of a crime doesn't blend in with that.
Btw, Helm is a neutral deity, not that it would matter in this case, as Keldorn is a Paladin of Torm. Also, there is no Church of Shar.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Church_of_Shar
Politics does play a part. Talos and Umberlee tend to be more tolerated since sailors and farmers often make offerings to try to appease them. Also, those churches don't actively work towards corruption the way Shar does.
EDIT:
BTW, @jinxed75 I edited my post above around the same time you were writing your answer to it. I don't know if you saw that.
I don't want to debate about the last 20 years or so, too much risk of starting some flame.
But the recent or less recent past of the real world?
When the British Raj was splitted in India and Pakistan maybe 20 million people was massacred, in the name of goodness, and both the parts belived to be the good one.
Europe, few centuries ago? Other millions people massacred and burnt on the fire, like viky, for being Jews, witches, heretical, millions, I think 3 o 4 millions on a population far less numerous then today.
And the crusades, the blood running through the streets of Damascus like brooks.
Is all in the history books. and that was done by good people in the name of goodnes.
And in the books can be found so many other examples.
The good people of these examples was Christian, Muslim, Hindu, the 3 religions that have much followers. This is something not related to a single religion or a single historical period.
Maybe who invented FR projected perfectly real world attitudes into a fantasy world.
So nothing strange if a member of the Church of Thorm can kill a member of the Church of Shar, even if she is a comrade, if maybe she had put to risk her life to save his life in the last fight. This has nothing to do whith her being good or evil, the evil korgan is tollerated and appreciated.
I am convinced, keldorn do the only logical thing he could do.
And Viconia is an idiot ( I just can't explain to me how a pally can win against a cleric, but this is related to game mechanics, if I had the control over her character during the fight he would never had a chance, turn paladins aside).
Also this is maybe a more prosaic reason to explain why the developers decided that their presence in the party is not possible, once she reach the appropriate level and turns undeads keldorn get turned and incapacitated.
And about the Temple of Talos just 2 blocks away from the Order of the Radiant Heart let's see the cleric quest.
The final goal of both the good and evil church is to massacre the rivals, in both plots the talos follower make the first move, but even so all that "forgive your unfaithful wife" lead to "charname go to massacre all the priests of Talos". Obviously in the name of goodnes.
The usual "miracle exemption" of fictional concepts probably applies, and you just assume the existence and definition of inherent good/evil as a given axiom without need for further explanation. Doesn't sit well with some of our real-world sensibilities but it's the only viable solution I see that doesn't degenerate into a long-winded and probably end-/resultless philosophical debate.
Given the axioms, though, you can totally explore self-consistency. I agree that the characterization we witness in BG is a bit out of whack with the underlying concepts. Not a problem endemic to BG either, you often see supposedly "good" characters twisted into fanatics that are anything but - which doesn't work with a concept of INHERENT good, only with a concept of relative and subjective good as we know it from the real world. The alternative would probably simply be too strange and too confusing for the audience (though I personally think it could make for some intriguing stories).
In the Forgotten Realms, that's not the case. Shar and her church really are trying to corrupt all good, destroy the Weave and extinguish the sun. And Viconia is not some yahoo who just joined up, she's a high level cleric in this organization.
I can't think of real world parallel to this, so I'm getting my inspiration from Hollywood. It's 1944 and British SAS officer Keldorn is on a mission behind enemy lines. He's just found out the team medic is really a Colonel in the Gestapo. What do you expect him to do?
If I was a DM and a paladin character decided to look the other way after discovering a cleric of Shar, I'd have to warn that player his paladin was in danger of falling.
I was not arguing against your point about killing Viconia, just telling that projecting real world attitudes into that fantasy world is not misleading. Atrocities here and there, in the name of goodnes.
Maybe in FR there is inherent evil, and shar is part of it. But Viconia is not Shar. She is evil, she is a cleric of Shar, but she is not inherently evil, she can change and she will change if charname romances her and make the right choices.
But keldorn, if he kill her because of Shar and not only for being a drow, have good reason to do it.
I see the logic in it, but is a logic that sets some problems. Because is the same logic of the people who was burning alive witches an heretics. You say "none of the victims of those massacres was really trying to destroy the world" but an inquisitor would have said that witches are servants of the devil trying to conduct to the perdition people's souls and heretics was perverting the true religion for the same purpose.
They had good reasons to do what they did.
Now we know that most if not all of the witches was not witches at all and that the intention of the heretics catars or followers of Valdo was not so. And we know from the epilogues, both if romanced or not, that Viki has no part in the word destruction.
Do you se how close are that game and reality? May be there is an absoute inherent evil, but is not given to the man to discriminate and to differentiate it from the relative one. A man that arrogates the right to do it it usurps the role of God.
Fighting Shar, in that word where inherent evil exists, is obviously righteous. To judge the soul of other men, and not their acts, and to condemn them for this is a different thing.
that's my point of wiew about keldorn and Viconia.
In the next days I will not be at home an don't know if I can mange to find an internet connection, so I guess that my next log in that stimulating toic will be over.
Well, I personally think that Hexxat is miscategorised. She should be Lawful Evil. She's highly organised, professional, and rule oriented in her behaviour (she also makes mention to things being orderly in her banters), as well as being consistent in her villainy.
But yeah, Hexxat brings out all the OOC in her interactions, I wouldn't use anyone interacting with her as an example.
Anyway, on the topic of alignment, I'm just coming to an end of a CN playthrough through the whole series, Ravayu Atar, and I (and he) have come to the conclusion that good guys can do okay sometimes, but paladins are the true threat to the realms.
Ajantis - stomps up and demands you stand and deliver identify. If you respond to his rudeness in kind, he turns hostile.
This is a paladin, someone who has the inbuilt ability to detect evil, and he's not only harassing travellers, he's mindlessly attacking people because they make him angry.
This isn't the first or only time this happens, Paladins randomly scan your party for people of evil alignment and attack if they find any, and constantly turn hostile if you're not adequately subservient towards them.
As an aside, how messed up is it to attack someone for pinging evil? Your average "evil farmer" might cheat his neighbour out of a few gold coins, but he's not going to cause much trouble overall, and he may well have a wife, children, and be providing jobs to his local community. Attacking someone for their alignment scan is thought crimes, and Paladins the justified killsquads of the establishment.
Move onto BG2. Paladins are here too, right?
Keldorn Firecam, he's a nice guy, right? Fair and moderate?
Try being rude to him and it's clear that he's an aggressive madman who takes your refusal to tell him what you're up to as vindication to turn hostile and try to kill you. Why? Because you weren't respectful enough, no other reason.
Poor Ravayu leaves the paladin corpse to visit the Windspear Hills to exterminate some ogres. But they're secretly paladins? How could this be avoided? By asking to talk? Of course not, Ajantis the sociopathic "servant of good" refuses to parley, he attacks!
What's the good solution in the Umar Hills? To talk to the ogres, find out the truth, and defuse tensions between them and the town to avoid needless bloodshed. Just because they're ogrish doesn't mean they're inevitably bad.
But that was because of the illusions, surely regular paladins would stop and talk first!
Sure, they talk just long enough to send you out to murder their former members, most of whom aren't even that bad, just not perfect on the Paladin's black and white moral code. Hiring the head of the local thieves' guild to assassinate an ex-member? Is that the action of a goodly organisation? I think not.
And poor Anomen, before Garren Windspear arrived, he was informed that his sister has been murdered! No time to talk mister Windspear, we need to travel to town immediately. Surely we can explain ourselves to the authorities when they question us, or they can raise their dead paladin friends and discover that they were slain by evil ogres, not a confused knightly squire or his love interest, the disinterested male elf, right?
Wrong. High level paladin party ambushes you in the slums district, intentionally using (demi)human shields to stop you from using your own AOE attacks.
How is that messed up? They're just trying to bring you to justice for your supposed crimes, right?
Think about the Suldanessellan forces. They're in the middle of a freaking war, some bloodied figures emerge from the underdark, possibly feeling a bit snippy after having to slaughter an entire drow city. What do they do?
They bring you over to their leadership, and call over a few spellcasters who... Can discern truth from lies. Just like any goodly cleric should be able to. They ask questions to find out what you're about and if you're friend or foe, and then they send you on your way.
Yes, in the Paladin mindset they are judge, jury and executioner, there's no room for "arrest" or "innocence until proven guilty" for Paladins, they're not even interested in a trial. But what makes it worse?
You can visit Lunia, the plane of Tyr and his paladins. There you can discover that they are, in fact, massively gullible. You can convince them that you, the short elvish one in a wizard's robe, are a new paladin of Tyr, that you are on a holy quest (assuredly not the case), and just lean past them to achieve your goal and leave, possibly directing the forces of good to target completely innocent parties in the process.
So yes, not only are Paladins extremists, racists (no Mazzy, no halfling paladins) they're also extremely, ridiculously, gullible. These are the people supposed to enforce justice? It's no surprise hat Tyr is the god who straight up murders Helm, a fellow Paladin deity (his paladins are usually less terrible too) the god of duty and behaving himself, because Cyric told him that Helm was macking on Tymora.
And the clincher, the organisations that generally wanted Ravayu the neutral, generally heroic, elf dead by the end?
Evil Cowled Wizards.
Evil Vampire sect.
Evil Beholder Cult.
Evil Sorcerer Irenicus.
Evil Drow city.
Evil Twisted Rune.
Evil Slavers.
Evil Shade Lord.
Evil Illithids.
And... the Radiant Heart and forces of Tyr.
Coincidence? I think not.
1)His blood is very ''diluted'', because it dates back to 10k years ago, and beacuse it was passed second hand to most drow, through breeding, since originally it was only the Ilythiiri nobles and mages to consort with him (besides, commoners or farmers or workers had nothing to do with him, as Lolth sent him to seduce the rulers, not the random people).
2)There are many cases of non-evil drow in the FR, who have simply chosen to another path when they found (or were given) an opportunity. Known examples are the followers of Eilistraee: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee. If you read the article, it says that all drow feel her song, and many of them secretely long for the love and joy that she offers them, albeit few ever do anything about it (because of fear, because they are troubled by what they feel, or other reasons, but all of them feel the goodess). This means that there is no inherent cruelty within them, and its mostly Lolth that forces them to reject all the beautiful things in life and turn them into her puppets.
And if you say that all the followers of the Dark Maiden were changed by Q'arlynd Melarn in their original form, and that for that reason there are only ''genetically'' evil drow now, that's not true. Because it isn't reasonable to say that the followers of the Dark Maiden included every single non-evil drow at the time (and that children or other drow couldn't later choose to reject Lolth), and because Eilistraee is gaining new drow followers in the current era, after her return (1480s DR, much later than the time in which BG is set). Besides, Ed Greenwood said that drow raised among the Eilistraeeans are not evil (unless they choose to, like a human would), and that in 1370s DR about 20% of the drow worshiped Eilistraee, among other deities (Vhaeraun had even more at the time, leaving Lolth with about half the race). In short, the drow evil is mostly due to brainwashing and context and Lolth's breathing on their necks.
Saying that drow are genetically evil contradicts a lot of previously established FR lore.
3)Tieflings carry so much fiendish blood within them, that it has repercussions on their appearance, and yet it is explicitly stated in the 5e PHB that they are not genetically evil. So why should drow, who have like a drop of fiendish blood in them, be genetically evil?
As a rule of thumb, nothing in the Realms is always X (or always X but 1 or 2 super-dudes), and things rarely are black and white. Ed Greenwood built the setting around variety and nuances, not around fixed, almost unbreakable rules.
Yes, you are right about Ed Greenwood, unlike initial Gygax led concept (but it is still stated DM is free to alter anything as they see fit), FR is far more complex and mature compared to the initial Greyhawk which was fairly B&W in concept.
Naturally, however, in the early days of Gygax, there wasn't that much literature and books or modules readily available (especially when one do not live in US) and things are pretty expensive back then for a teemage to afford any of those guide books or magazines. Thus during those days we have limited imaginations and limited funds ^^ (early 1980s)
AFAIK, few beings in D&D do not get a choice to be good or evil. It gets worse with D&D literature, where alignment is more of a guideline than something you have to follow because your DM is threatening you with whatever.
If drow are 100% evil in GH or another setting, that doesn't extend to the Realms. In this setting, it wouldn't make sense to make the drow ''genetically/magically/inherently'' evil, because of their history and--again--because there are many examples to prove that it is not the case.
The only beings that I'm sure are 100% X-aligned, are outsiders, because they literally are concepts made substance. I think that even for creatures like Illithids, ''evil'' is an arguable term: although that would be very macabre, you could say that most of them do the same thing that humans do with cattle (so, ''a threat to be destroyed regardless'' would be a more fitting description than ''evil'', IMO).
However there is always a chance for redemption, but it is not easy for an individual to break away from such cultural makeup. Imagine if you're expect to fight for your place all the time... There is simply no place for weak. Mercy, sensitivity, kindness etc are all seen negative qualities which are rooted out as early as possible.
Yeah, real life examples living in places like Afghanistan etc ... real harsh and they grow up to do things that others in the world may classify as evil or inhumane etc ..
A kamikaze with explosives hidden behind clothes can be perceived as a mad and an evil person or as a true hero who immolate his own life fighting for the right cause, it depends only on how the elite dominating your country want that you perceive him.
And somehow killing civilians exploding with them or remote controlling a drone or bombing aqueducts and hospitals imho is not very different.
If in the past the war was a fair thing, and I think it never was so, is from WW2 and the bombing of cities and civil population, both by Germans and Allies, that is not so.
Excuse me for the OT.
In the end, it's a matter of brainwashing, isolation, and of making sure that the drow perceive their current existence as the only possibility. Once they are made to understand (or spontaneously understand) that there are alternatives that lead to an actually enjoyable life (and I'm not talking exclusively aout ''goodly'' alternatives, just any choice that isn't the crazy, self-destroying evil of Lolth), many will embrace that.
It's also why Eilistraee's (and even her brother's Vhaeraun) work is so much difficult, since they have to inject new ideas in such a stagnant society, where every chance if progress is immediately shut down by the priestesses of Lolth, who are interested in keeping the status quo.
Actions are easily judged, and can be incorrectly judged with out knowing the heart and mind of the person/ character.
Edit: Unless we are talking about the inherit evil that involves crimes against children, there is no fixing that kind of evil in my eyes and should be destroyed.
Drow are taught that the surface is evil as are the populace of the surface world, especially the surface elves. Most will never learn the truth, simply because they will never be in the position of learning differently.
Paladins: because they are vowed to be Lawful can do terrible things following orders of the superiors in their order or King to whom they have sworn fealty. Even with that they are not infallible and can make mistakes.
Harpers: especially in the BG series are the UN of the Forgotten Realms.
Let me explain my thoughts on the Untied Nations simply. UN = Ubiquitous Nose.
Therefore the Harpers can cause huge rifts by micro managing the inner workings of the realm, and nearly succeed in BG 2.
In the real world :
There are bad choices made for War. War Does have a place and sadly many who wage war are not strategists. I believe If the teachings of Sun Tzu where followed then a good half of the conflicts would not happen, or would be over quickly.
In Gaming:
War is a tool used for story telling. Actions and consequences of decisions can become the path of war or lessen the likely hood of war with other methods of conflict resolution. Many gamers find Battles exciting, and the genre would suffer with out a war or two.
The Us verses Them mentality transcends both Real life and Fiction. Gaming in my eyes can be a higher form of literature when good writers are given the opportunity of developing characters and story lines.
Knowledge is like a knife .... (it has no alignment ^^) ... how the Art of War is used is like the knife ...
This is why all vampires are evil by nature: for them to exist, they have to sacrifice others. Those other could be innocent or not is not a matter. A good vampire will just cease to exist very quickly, and in fact does: not all being becoming vampires do accept to sacrifice others for their sake, and some of them just let themselves die of starvation.
A neutral vampire would be something like a being putting extreme effort to locate the worst scum humanity can have, so they can feed on them only. Still, that vampire will not be "good". It's still killing people just for his own profit, he just avoid innocent ones to keep balance.
I feel like most NPC have the right alignement for their personalities. Viconia WILL kill an innocent stranger for her own sake. Without a doubt. That's even without considering she prays an evil goddess.
Unlike other evil NPCs Viconia's actually teetering between True Neutral/Neutral Evil, though you'll never know this unless you romance her and find out just how confused/conflicted she really is.
Sarevok is a special case. The guy lost everything, died and, against all odds, came back. That's a whole different can of worms.
Yet the Radiant Heart live peacefully near Temple of Talos in Athkatla ^^ knowing their neighbor is assuredly evil ^^ and with a nice big temple to glorify their evil deity.
Oh well ^^, fanatics do things in the name of their gods (meaning those paladins) and that seemed to justify the goodness of their actions(picking on a lone drow who in their presence has not done eny evil deeds) and yet if the Charname do an evil act (while reputation is still within tolerance) is never openly challenged ^^ (all in the name of goodness) ^^. All in all too many alignment loopholes ^^.
Which would you think would further the greater cause of Talos/Torm/Helm/Lathander/etc - killing a few low level clerics of the opposite faction or the opportunity to convert/recruit thousands to their faith?
Well, in the case of Keldorn, he initiates conflict without looking at the "greater good" Charname is achieving ^^. Anyway did anyone noticed something about Paladins as a whole? Those that remain as Paladins in their entire life tends to be lawfully stupid (hence most paladins you see in D&D don't have high INT scores) while those intelligent Paladins tend to be targeted by the like of Demogorgon etc to be converted to Death Knights ^^ (hence Death Knights tend to be quite intelligent) ^^.