Kinda getting bored of my cav.
Kneller
Member Posts: 438
She's hip, she's cool, she has 80% of my kills. But there's just no finesse with this character. Obviously, a tank role is pretty necessary (and Minsc or Jah can handle it), but I envision charname's specific role being more involved than point and click. I'm thinking of starting over with something else, but I'm not sure what. For the record, I'm playing canon party (Imoen, Jah, Khalid, Minsc, and Dyn for BG1, and Minsc, Jah, Yoshi->Imoen for BG2, only taking other NPCs for their quests). Also, I'm actually playing the GoG version so I don't have the EE "extras".
1) Wild mage. Possibly redundant with Imoen. As for it doing more than just point and click, really what's different? Point, click, and reload? While wild surges can be fun, does it really add all that much?
2) Fighter/Cleric or Ranger/Cleric. The latter is a bit cheese for me (ironskins, etc. access), but I would mod it so it only has what it should have. I have a feeling that this would play very similar to a Cav except that a lot of it's awesomeness would be thwarted by a dispel magic.
3) Cleric/Mage. I actually discussed this one a bit in an earlier thread looking for suggestions. One of the reasons it was shot down by others is because, while you may have a -ton- of spells, you still can only cast 1 per round. Not to mention, multi-classing a spellcaster nerfs your spellcasting a bit.
4) Sorcerer. This may be just a point and click of another variety. While I like how magic works with a sorcerer (spells per day), I would only be able to focus on the generally applicable things and wouldn't get to experiment with spells the way a wild mage could with NRD.
5) Fighter/Mage, Kensai/Mage, or Bard (kit). These are popular suggestions, but not for me. The F/M and K/M are a little munchkiny for me and I'm just not into bards.
Any thoughts? Thanks.
1) Wild mage. Possibly redundant with Imoen. As for it doing more than just point and click, really what's different? Point, click, and reload? While wild surges can be fun, does it really add all that much?
2) Fighter/Cleric or Ranger/Cleric. The latter is a bit cheese for me (ironskins, etc. access), but I would mod it so it only has what it should have. I have a feeling that this would play very similar to a Cav except that a lot of it's awesomeness would be thwarted by a dispel magic.
3) Cleric/Mage. I actually discussed this one a bit in an earlier thread looking for suggestions. One of the reasons it was shot down by others is because, while you may have a -ton- of spells, you still can only cast 1 per round. Not to mention, multi-classing a spellcaster nerfs your spellcasting a bit.
4) Sorcerer. This may be just a point and click of another variety. While I like how magic works with a sorcerer (spells per day), I would only be able to focus on the generally applicable things and wouldn't get to experiment with spells the way a wild mage could with NRD.
5) Fighter/Mage, Kensai/Mage, or Bard (kit). These are popular suggestions, but not for me. The F/M and K/M are a little munchkiny for me and I'm just not into bards.
Any thoughts? Thanks.
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And my thought? You've just exhausted the subject.. I've been there recently.. Maybe try some other game for a while?
As for the subject, well, wait a bit till you get epic levels and you can customise your cavalier with deva summoning and other martial high lvl abilities.
You can play minimal (reload only if pc is dead) or no reload for added challenge and fun. I play the former and so far in my game, Aerie was liquified by green slime, Rasaad was backstabbed to chunks, Minsc was first death rayed and then turned to stone by beholders, Jaheira was disintegrated by Tanova, and Anomen was drain-chunked by Bodhi. I licked my wounds and went on, trying new npcs for maybe the first time ever. I have Korgan and Mazzy now, and if they both survive I look forward to their 'flirt' talks I heard so much about.
If the game is still boring and challengeless to you, you may also try mods. Scs mod is excellent and makes the game fresh and challenging, it becomes like a new game and all enemies act so smart you feel like battling living, thinking enemies.
As for wild mage, it is a fun class. My favourite, actually. Add the fact that I play minimal reloads it certainly adds up the tension and challenge. A sorcerer is quite boring, when compared. With a wild mage a high lvl scroll is tremendous fun to find, as you can try casting it with Nahals if you dare. Fun!
If you are looking for a build with a lot of versatility, you'll inevitably end up with some sort of Fighter/Thief.
Go and make a Halfing F/T, and have him/her spend points and some type of sword and shortbows. You'll get a fine backstabber with a good ranged option, traps, and all the other thieving gadgets. Once you've acquired UAI, you can even have him/her cast all kinds of buffs and protections from scrolls, and be a superb tank, too.
at the bottom line of this there is a big difference if you click on an enemy protected from phisical attack or level draining whitout dispelling foe protection or protecting your tank.
But everyone has different opinions and style about how to play this game, and there is nothing wrong in that. Sonetimes I read of players who give all the good stuff to charname, that have charname whith 99% of the kills (I am exaggerating) and if they are happy I don't find nothing wrong about it. Maybe that if they say that their blade NPC or the cleric mage suks I will point that are both really powerfull characters, but only if effectively equipped and played, but I really think that everyone is free to play whith is stile and enjoy so much this game cause it can ge played effectively whith completely different styles and tactics.
About your specific questions.
1) Wild mage
It depends on how much you like to reload or to deal whith a bad surge whitout reloding.
Can be very funny to play, and also very poverfull when he levels enough. And very complex whith potentially all the spells at disposition and under permanent improoved alacrity.
But using dewomers whith a low level WM to me seems silly, like memorizing only cromatic orbs and counting on the power of infinite reloads.
Is not my style, but there are players that had completed no reload runs whith WM so I suppose that you have to play it a lot more then I did to uncover his true potencial.
Also in your setup you can play it only as charname if you don't want to change the NPC's.
2) Fighter/Cleric or Ranger/Cleric
Cleric can be a very powerfull and complex character. Some years ago a player (maybe the strongest tactical player of the BG2 story) reported on another board of his solo on insane and whitout any cheese through all the worst difficoulty mods availlable at that moment of a plain cleric. Actually he failed, but just because he refused to slide down a bit the difficoulty on the last Ascension battle.
I am not so good in playng clerics, but if you add the ranger/fighter part and you learn to play the cleric part a lot better then I can do You see that is not a "clone" of your cav, is a lot more, in power and complexity. the eventual ironskins are only a cherry on top of it.
3) Cleric/Mage
Read my answer to 2), subtract the fighter (and this don't mean that will be weak in mlee, just less APR and some less thaco on a characrer almost untouchable) and add the mage part. one of the most complex and difficoult to play at full potential classes.
Cons: Aerie but there is nothing wrong in making your personal Cleric/Mage whith better stats.
4) Sorcerer
This may be just a point and click of another variety, I agree, or can be extremely versatile and deal whith different battles in completely different ways. he have a limited selection of spells per level but doing the right choices he will have A LOT of spells (I don't mean the spells he can cast Xday, I mean number of spells he knows) and have the biggest versatility on how to use them. Easy example whith lev1 spells, in the same battle he can use multiple sleep or blindnes using a save or else strategy whith a good chance that the else happens, whitout counting on over of reload, or use multiple damaging MM.
Transpose this little example to 9 levels and 5 spells known X level and you see yourself that if the 90% of sorcs are boring and monotematic is only because 90% of the players are lazy and lack of fantasy, find a tactic that work for them and always stick to it.
5) Fighter/Mage, Kensai/Mage, or Bard (kit).
If are not for you you have given yourself the answer.......
Each class you named is really powerfull, but seems to me that you are looking more for deepnes an complexity.
then:
[ spoiler]Each class you named is complex and deep, or can be played in complex and deep ways
I thought @Kneller meant "EE" VERSION BOUGHT ON GOG, I (mistakenly) assumed everyone from the forums are playing EE's by now..
@gorgonzola yeah, I'm definitely looking for a little more depth.
@Rodrian I considered EE, but figured it wasn't really worth it. I mostly post here because it's the only really active forum.
so we users of the predecessor are welcome and there is nothing wrong in discussing about the version we use.
Shure that we have access to mods that don't work well with EE, and EE users have access to new material that, being commercial and not free mods, we will never have, until we eventually shift to EE.
And there are other differences between the 2 versions of the game, but the main engine and a great part of the game are basically the same, so we still have a good common ground.
But, for the things where there are differences, is alwais better to point out that we are users of the old game and if GOG sells both notEE is better then GOG to state it.
However, since you've quickly got bored with a Cavalier, I suggest that your best bet might be something as different as possible from a Cavalier. I reckon that means some sort of arcane caster.
However, since you're going to have Imoen as an arcane caster, there's not much point in duplicating her by being a straight caster. Since Yoshimo->Imoen also covers your Thief needs, there's likewise less point in being a Thief/Mage. Thus your best bet for a very different character without duplicating the functions of an existing party member would be a Cleric/Mage.
But being only 4 and removing a fighter leaves the party whith a little mlee capability.
Minsk is a real fighter, but can not attain GM (+1/2apr and damage bonus) and is not the best fighter.
Jaheera being a multi not only can't attain GM, but takes more time to reach lv13 (other +1/2APR not lost but delayed).
They are good fighters, but not the best fighters.
The Cleric/Mage, whith the thaco and buffs of a cleric and protections of the mage, is not only a awesome spellcaster, but can have also a role in mlee. After a certain level can also dual weld effectively, and can use blunt weapons while minsk used swords and Jaheera the druid allowed weapons.
Don't have to do it all the time, but when needed can do it, much better then a rogue (same thaco but no DUHM or Righteous magic).
And when is not needed whith both arcane and divine magic is a powerfull spellcaster.
I have also my personal recipe for a 5 or 8 APR high dps regenerating Cleric/Mage in early or mid SoA if someaone is interested, but whith whot I've alredy told is easy to find how....
Cleric/Mage seems to be a really good choice, versatile, not boring and quite powerfull.
I agree!
I could be just playing them wrong. However, one thing I feel the cannon party is lacking is a solid cleric.
The Cleric/Thief is unique, complex and very powerful, though something of an attention-vampire to use correctly. Just don't forget to control the rest of your party while trying to pull off some cleric-thiefy tricks.
They are loads of fun either dualed or multi, and offer lots of potential to be explored.
The first result lead to a topic of some years ago, in another board, of a cleric solo run through all the difficoult mods available at that time. Is a long thread, but shows the power of a well played cleric that is not only the undead explosions. Undead explosions that are far less relevant in a multi cleric in a party then whith a solo single class, that is shure.
But that thread, that begins whith some shots of undead turned, shows a lot more, not all this game deals whit undead foe.
I am not good in using clerics, but that thread opened my mind about their true potential. I consider cleric class like the bard, a widely misunderstood class, that is used by most of the players far beyond their capabilities, but that, learning how to deal whit them, can become REALLY powerfull. The more I use them, tryong to do it in an intellgent way, the more they gain power in my own parties.
That's why I think that a cleric/mage, or a cleric /thief can be a real interesting class if you look for deepnes.
Also the thief is another class often underused, they have a lot of capabilities, well beyond the dealing whith traps and locks and some occasional backstab. Imoen or Nalia are more than enough for that. Setting traps, also avoiding cheap tactics, can become an art, exploring give tactical advantage to the party, they can reveal invisible enemies also if they are protected from spells that do it, and free mages slots and time.
The moment you begin micro-managing, it stops being a "point and click" thing. It becomes much more than that. And any caster goes micro-managing a lot, starting with wands and continuing with spell scrolls. Add to that a chance to learn spells, and ways to overcome it. Add to that a huge variety of tactics that you use to fight this or that enemy. You can try different spells, different spell combinations.
If you're bored of playing as a cavalier, then try a character with different setup.
For example, try a backstabbing thief, or a stalker. You go invisible, find an enemy, backstab him, then try to retreat, try to split enemies in groups and backstab again. So fun to chunk them in one hit!
Or try a bounty hunter, and set traps first, then lure enemies in them.
Or try a summoning character. A totemic druid can summon a lot of helpers, with his spirit animals staying strong till late ToB.
Really, this game is full of completely different characters, than tanking cavaliers.
The OP says that playing as a sorcerer is a "point and click" experience, and even if it can not be a "point and click" character is true that can be boring to play, if you have the wrong spell selection and if you stick to the same couple of trusted tactics.
I alredy pointed out that ha can have 8x5 + 4 spells known when at level cap and also have the greatest flexibility on how to use them in combat so the boring problem is only a problem of mental lazyness of the player, and potentially sorc can deal whith the same fight whith a lot of different tactics.
I completely agree whith you about the micro-managing thing.
That is the way I like, whith tactics and other mods that pose apparently impossible situations, like the triple SI you find in Sola mod, how can you deal whith an improoved invisibility, stoneskin and PFMW protected half vampire half lich F/M under SI Abiuration, Alteration and Divination?
actually you can, but then the game becomes like a Chess game, you have to pause and think, you have to micromanage and use all the equipment you have collected.
But there are players who never pause and micromanage very little, they use every key of the keyboard and become wizards in doing it. They can take the control of a character and cast a spell or do something other in a fraction of a second. I would never succeed in doing it, but I see the fun in playng like that.
Many players, many styles.....
I think a thief has a lot of interesting options between traps, backstabbing, UAI, etc. However, I'll have Yoshi from the start, then Imoen will take his place. Granted, she won't level as a thief anymore, but it seems a little redundant, even though having an actively leveling thief will bring something to the party.
Casters are kind of a drag, especially in the underdark where I am now. If mobs don't make their save, then MR blocks the spell. I've yet to have a silence spell work on anyone there, and I've had plenty of opportunities for it. Even insect plague is pretty hit or miss, emphasis on miss. Frankly, how I play casters now is a little cheaty, but direct magic can be pretty pointless unless you front load it with a bunch of other spells, and what's the point of spending a few rounds just to do ~10d6 damage that is most likely going to get reduced to 5d6 (or 17.5 damage on average). As for buffing, one remove magic and you're done.
Anyway, my cheaty way (cheaty because the mobs don't think to look for where the summons are coming from) I have scouts weave in and out to make enemy casters burn through true sight, wait a bit for things like PFMM to wear off, then send in some summons so they burn through their own spells. I wish there were more summons per level though. Jah, for example, has nothing worth memorizing for Level 2. I just load her up on resist/fire cold so she can beef up my Cav, but she never burns through it all by the time we rest. And level 4 only has Call Woodland Beings. Not a useless spell, but it doesn't help with this strategy.
Anyway, as cool as a RM backstab would be. I would think a Mage/Thief would have even better utility. However, I don't want to digress from how to get the most out of a cleric.
I am reading that thread from sorcerer's palace. A lot of the discussion involves a solo, which involves a very different approach than a party cleric.
Clerics are some of my favorite builds however. Great (best?) buffing, great tanking, or great power for standing toe to toe and wrecking your enemies.
You then have the 'point and click' of the fighter classes, I'm running a Cav right now myself in BG1, and you'd be surprised when some of the things they can do, become meaningful.
All told, there are a lot of different things one can do, and some builds/classes wont appeal to everyone.
I'd try out a cleric though, maybe even multi-class, as you can do a lot with them.
And for years I avoided save or else spells like a plague, but then I discovered that can be effectively used without relying on multiple reloads.
Magical resistence, if a foe has it you have to lower it or you don't use spells blocket by it at all.
Saving throws. Some spells have a penality to the save, up to -4, GM give another -4, and doom -2.
So the enemy can have a penality to saves against your save or else spell up to -10. And even so if I opt for a SoE strategy my mages have at least 2 or 3 memorizations of the spell. Usually if I decide to Fleeblemind or turn to stone a foe I succeed. Even so using SoE effects I want always an alternative route or a retreat capability. Even whith -10 to saves and multiple memorizations 100% success is not granted. Spell Shield
both C/M and Sorcerer can use it.
For other debuffing spells you have plenty of solutions, SI, Improoved Invisibliti and so on 1-That tactic is good at VERY LOW LEVELS against hard difficoulty increesing mods, but try to not stick to it, at underdark levels you have tons of alternative strategies.
2-The point of the solo cleric topic was only to show the true potential of cleric class, a multi cleric in a party is something different but to some extent share the same potential and can merge it whith thief or mage potential.
For both 1 & 2 experiment, do your own resarch, copying someone's else strategies don't make of you a better player. And spoils half of the fun.......
It could even become the goal of my next run ...
This is one of the reasons I like the IWD series better than BG2. The magic system is so much better. You don't have to deal with this tedium. You want to cast a spell? Just cast the spell. None of these protect against DM/RM. Basically any cleric buff can be wiped out with this single third level spell. And most fights with a spellcaster starts with them casting this on my party, sometimes multiple times. I generally don't even bother buffing anymore. Perhaps, but this one seems to be the most efficient. Summons to trigger/bait enemies, maybe throwing in the occasional cloudkill, and call it a day. It's lame, but it beats spending half the combat softening up a target with metamagic just to get off a single spell that could easily miss.
I don't know what this would accomplish, fun-wise, but it's just what's bouncing around my head.
I find Sorcerers offer their own mini game when it comes to choosing spells and choosing them at the appropriate levels. The game can be solod as one, so take that into account as they are very strong in the right hands.
Kensai/Mage is just simply overpowered to put it bluntly. Don't roll one unless that's the experience you're after. Seriously, people who roll them continuously I just kinda shake my head at.
Clerics are a nice choice imo. Sure, in BG2 there are a couple good ones, but you will always be the best. Think about it like this. Whatever you choose as your PC you're providing the best services that class/role has to offer... provided you're not a total noob.
Fighter/Cleric is a nice touch and there aren't any worthy ones in BG2. There's Jahiera and Cernd, Druids but you get the point. They both lack the offensive/defensive power of an F/C. Fighter/Clerics are extremely powerful if they're dual classed, probably tied for 2nd place on the power totem pole.