FoA's not so appealing free action after upgrade problem is easily solved. Both unequipping it, having the spell cast and equipping it again and don't making the final upgrade. Some players consider the first too cheesing. About upgraging only to +4 I think is a good option, can still hit almost everything, 7 damage less, and the same slowing effect that imo is the main strenght of FoA. This is often my choiice. Upgrading to +5 whithout using the workaround for free action imo is a good choice only if the party don't have many IH to caste, but whith M/T Imoen you will have plenty, or if the welder has many GWW.
MoD is really strong against undead and in endgame you will find good ones to DW whith FoA, up to +5 to deal whith +4 immune enemies if you don't upgrade the flail.
Staves for upgraded Ram, but a component of the upgrade give resistence to crushing that stacked whith a clerical spell, a certain flail and hardness is an interesting option. Staff mace don't change the game, the Spear staff is more interesting because is the only way you have to mlee whith a non crushing weapon.
I just realized something, though. Does the MoD even matter. By pretty much soloing a C/R. I can just turn undead and usually explode everything on the screen anyway, right?
I just realized something, though. Does the MoD even matter. By pretty much soloing a C/R. I can just turn undead and usually explode everything on the screen anyway, right?
If you're solo, pretty much. You'll be high enough level to explode even Liches reasonably quickly. Though I suppose for those early levels you can still use MoD if you like.
I can't figure on a good +5 sub in for the FoA should I choose not to upgrade it all the way. I'm seeing:
1) Club of Detonation. Not bad, except I'll also have Imoen so I'd need to really up her fire resistance. Even at a 100%, though, I think getting hit with the fireball would still trigger spell failure. I'd have to be sure to keep her well away.
2) Rune Hammer. It's bonuses are only good against undead making it a really limited choice.
3) Stormstar. Not the worst, I suppose. Considering the idea is to have an alternate weapon for improved haste, and if the chain lightning triggers 5% of the time, you'll likely have 5 attacks per round with that weapon and improved haste, that gives you ~22% chance of Chain Lightning triggering every round. If CL triggered 10% of the time (or ~40% chance per round), I would feel better about it. What level is the item spell anyway (i.e. how much damage)? Anyway, not super impressive, but there are not a lot of contenders.
4) Staff of the Ram. This would also give 5 attacks per round with improved haste. 1d6+1d4+12 damage is probably the best deal in town. Not only that, but there would be ~55% chance of triggering the stun per round. This would be even better with GWW, though as it increases stun chance to ~92%.
Doesn't matter. By the time you're at the point of needing a plus 5 weapon for the handful of targets that need it, you should have already maxed out all of your weapon pips. You're able to change to whatever weapon you like for every battle.
The last comment from @Kneller make me think about APR in a party whith only a C/R charname and a M/T multi Imoen, whith some occasional an underlevelled chars taken only for their quests. Immi will have at her best 6 THACO + something from strenght but not as relevant as the +7 from 25 Strenght that Aerie can have, and only 1 pip in DW. Unless she use offhand Crom, and is a route that is worth to think about, she will not be a good dual welder, so only 1 APR, 2 if hasted or improoved hasted. And as main caster and thief has a lot to do far from the "mlee zone". In that party she will be more effective ranged, going mlee just for backstabs. Or to tank protected whith stoneskin and PFMW driving away enemie's attention from the C/R. The bulk of mlee power will be Charname alone. If 5APR improoved hasted whith a hight damage dealing weapon is not bad at all in this context it seems a weak choice. Much better dual welding for hight APR (each attack whith the +14 damage from strenght, so the damage of the weapon is less relevant) or giving charname a shield for very good AC, as ironskins are eroded quite fast by high APR or multiple enemies.
I see upgraded Ram as a good backstabbing weapon for Imoen or maybe not upgraded and the component used for crushing resistance, as I told before. But I don't see charname welding a 2hander in this context, he looses in offence, low APR, or defence, shield for AC or DoE for damage reduction. I see him swiching from an hight APR configuration to a defensive configuration according whith the tactical requirement of the battle.
Yeah, I don't see Imoen doing a whole lot of physical fighting outside of the occasional backstab. Having her use the staff of the ram for that, I did not consider, but it makes sense. However, does the crushing resistance make it worth keeping that helmet around? I figure, aside from some helmets that have situational special abilities (e.g. Vhailor's Helm), the only person wearing a helm will be the C/R. Should Roranach's Horn be the one worn on the regular?
But I don't see charname welding a 2hander in this context, he looses in offence, low APR, or defence, shield for AC or DoE for damage reduction. I see him swiching from an hight APR configuration to a defensive configuration according whith the tactical requirement of the battle.
I'm sure I'll be using FoA as my main 99% of the time. As for my off hand, by BG2, I'm seeing a lot of DoE for defense, Crom for offense (why use spell slots for DUHM when I could have 25 STR all the time, right?), and the occasional shield when it matters (i.e. Balduran). So, if I max out at level 21, that will be 11 pips all together which will give me slings, flails, hammers, the odd pip for maxing TWF with 4 pips left over. That could be maces and clubs (which I will almost never use, if ever), or it could be staves and 2H (which initially I thought might be worth it for GWW, but it's probably not as good as FoA and Crom.
Should Roranach's Horn be the one worn on the regular? No, but there are a lot of enemies dealing crushing damage, whith the horn, doe, hardness and the clerical spell on top they will have a really hard time against charname. But you find the horn only very late in the game so upgrading ram or not make little difference. And why not give Imoen an helmet, after 3M XP if you want she can use and wear everything in the game. Also crom can be shared between them, in some fights used by the C/R saving some DUHM, that is better than the hammer boosting also Con (HP) and Dex (AC & ranged thaco), and in others can transform Imoen in a viable DWelder whith 4APR (+7,+14) welding 2 of the best weapons, you have plenty of powerfull 1hand slashing weapons that a cleric can not use, she can. A 2 men party impose some limitations, but also give extreme versatility. whith only 2 persons you have a magic heavy party, the utility and benefit of a real thief, the potential of 10APR, +7 +14 automatic roll for max damage 30% chance to slow and other 4APR +7+14, a lot of OP equipment, much more than each member of a 6 people party have and a huge summoning potential. You can configure on spot your "miniparty" for the tactic you want to use.
I didn't think of Imoen as a DWer, but really with Tensers and Crom in the offhand, it's definitely possible. What to use as a main hand weapon though?
I'd prefer the R/C for several reasons... Pros - Rangers can stalk in the shadows. May be innocuous, but in solo/semi-solo runs, this can be a very valuable skill to deal with some specifically hard encounters (my solo monk's ass was saved by stalking and stabbing people with Dagger of Venom (+running away/going invisible + stalking in again to do the same) in the last 2 fights of BG1) - Favoured enemy, charm animal, some druidic spells and stuff can be quite useful.
Other than that, F/C can not get GM so the only real pro of F/C is moot. Unless you'd want to go dual F->C
All in all, I don't think it makes a difference, which oddly makes the decision harder. I mean, we're looking at a point of damage here and a point of thaco there...
I fully agree. Just choose one and don't ever look back!
@Kneller, Imoen as a DWer is an option, as backstabbing Immi, hard casting Immi and ranged Immi are. A two people party whith the multi classes you choose is very versatile and easy to micromanage, and there are situations where a lot of mlee APR is the best solution. Whith Imoen DWer, a Planetar and a Greater Elemental and all the party IHasted, including gated helpers, you will have a lot of mlee APR. Use the versatility at your advantage!
@Southpaw, not only Rangers can stalk in the shadows, also T/M can hide and backstab. In this party the whole party can go invisible whithout potions or spells, infinite times x day, and eventually backstab. A huge tactical advantage. Is another side of the versatility I was talking about.
I didn't think of Imoen as a DWer, but really with Tensers and Crom in the offhand, it's definitely possible. What to use as a main hand weapon though?
Angurvadal, Equalizer, Daystar, Mask, Celestial fury, every sword a thief can be proficent in. Or even swords that he can not be proficent in but can weld whith thief UAI, like Foebane, if you don't mind to loose some thaco MH. Or think about Crom MH and Scarlet OH, nasty....... She can be proficent whith Scarlet and only 2 THACO penalization whith STR bonus and weapon enchantment make the impossibility to be proficent whith MH a non issue. 6APR, 4 hard damaging and 2 poisoning, a pretty capable little fighter girl, from a dual that is supposed to be mainly a caster......
Or think about Crom MH and Scarlet OH, nasty....... She can be proficent whith Scarlet and only 2 THACO penalization whith STR bonus and weapon enchantment make the impossibility to be proficent whith MH a non issue.
Imoen can't use the Scarlet Ninjato, but I just had a pretty successful run where CHARNAME was a Mage/Thief doing just this when melee was called for, with buffs and stoneskins he was dropping people faster than Sarevok by the end.
I do intend to rescue Imoen and keep her when I get her back. I'm also going to turn her into a half-elf multi mage/thief.
A multi M/T whith UAI can use Scarlet, or Purifier for MR or almost every weapon end item in the game, even the items restricted to a specific NPC like Jan's robe and glasses. Just can not be proficent in weapons that thief or mage can not be proficent in.
I do intend to rescue Imoen and keep her when I get her back. I'm also going to turn her into a half-elf multi mage/thief.
A multi M/T whith UAI can use Scarlet, or Purifier for MR or almost every weapon end item in the game, even the items restricted to a specific NPC like Jan's robe and glasses. Just can not be proficent in weapons that thief or mage can not be proficent in.
Ah, I was referring to an unaltered Imoen, not an M/T multi.
Ok, sometimes is hard to follow many discussions and remember everithing, and is easy to forget about the planned change of Imoen in the first post, as at that point the focus was all on charname, even if is something really relevant to that 2 people party strategy.
Comments
Both unequipping it, having the spell cast and equipping it again and don't making the final upgrade.
Some players consider the first too cheesing.
About upgraging only to +4 I think is a good option, can still hit almost everything, 7 damage less, and the same slowing effect that imo is the main strenght of FoA. This is often my choiice.
Upgrading to +5 whithout using the workaround for free action imo is a good choice only if the party don't have many IH to caste, but whith M/T Imoen you will have plenty, or if the welder has many GWW.
MoD is really strong against undead and in endgame you will find good ones to DW whith FoA, up to +5 to deal whith +4 immune enemies if you don't upgrade the flail.
Staves for upgraded Ram, but a component of the upgrade give resistence to crushing that stacked whith a clerical spell, a certain flail and hardness is an interesting option. Staff mace don't change the game, the Spear staff is more interesting because is the only way you have to mlee whith a non crushing weapon.
I say maces.
1) Club of Detonation. Not bad, except I'll also have Imoen so I'd need to really up her fire resistance. Even at a 100%, though, I think getting hit with the fireball would still trigger spell failure. I'd have to be sure to keep her well away.
2) Rune Hammer. It's bonuses are only good against undead making it a really limited choice.
3) Stormstar. Not the worst, I suppose. Considering the idea is to have an alternate weapon for improved haste, and if the chain lightning triggers 5% of the time, you'll likely have 5 attacks per round with that weapon and improved haste, that gives you ~22% chance of Chain Lightning triggering every round. If CL triggered 10% of the time (or ~40% chance per round), I would feel better about it. What level is the item spell anyway (i.e. how much damage)? Anyway, not super impressive, but there are not a lot of contenders.
4) Staff of the Ram. This would also give 5 attacks per round with improved haste. 1d6+1d4+12 damage is probably the best deal in town. Not only that, but there would be ~55% chance of triggering the stun per round. This would be even better with GWW, though as it increases stun chance to ~92%.
And that's it isn't it?
Immi will have at her best 6 THACO + something from strenght but not as relevant as the +7 from 25 Strenght that Aerie can have, and only 1 pip in DW. Unless she use offhand Crom, and is a route that is worth to think about, she will not be a good dual welder, so only 1 APR, 2 if hasted or improoved hasted. And as main caster and thief has a lot to do far from the "mlee zone". In that party she will be more effective ranged, going mlee just for backstabs. Or to tank protected whith stoneskin and PFMW driving away enemie's attention from the C/R.
The bulk of mlee power will be Charname alone. If 5APR improoved hasted whith a hight damage dealing weapon is not bad at all in this context it seems a weak choice. Much better dual welding for hight APR (each attack whith the +14 damage from strenght, so the damage of the weapon is less relevant) or giving charname a shield for very good AC, as ironskins are eroded quite fast by high APR or multiple enemies.
I see upgraded Ram as a good backstabbing weapon for Imoen or maybe not upgraded and the component used for crushing resistance, as I told before.
But I don't see charname welding a 2hander in this context, he looses in offence, low APR, or defence, shield for AC or DoE for damage reduction. I see him swiching from an hight APR configuration to a defensive configuration according whith the tactical requirement of the battle.
No, but there are a lot of enemies dealing crushing damage, whith the horn, doe, hardness and the clerical spell on top they will have a really hard time against charname. But you find the horn only very late in the game so upgrading ram or not make little difference.
And why not give Imoen an helmet, after 3M XP if you want she can use and wear everything in the game.
Also crom can be shared between them, in some fights used by the C/R saving some DUHM, that is better than the hammer boosting also Con (HP) and Dex (AC & ranged thaco), and in others can transform Imoen in a viable DWelder whith 4APR (+7,+14) welding 2 of the best weapons, you have plenty of powerfull 1hand slashing weapons that a cleric can not use, she can.
A 2 men party impose some limitations, but also give extreme versatility.
whith only 2 persons you have a magic heavy party, the utility and benefit of a real thief, the potential of 10APR, +7 +14 automatic roll for max damage 30% chance to slow and other 4APR +7+14, a lot of OP equipment, much more than each member of a 6 people party have and a huge summoning potential.
You can configure on spot your "miniparty" for the tactic you want to use.
Pros
- Rangers can stalk in the shadows. May be innocuous, but in solo/semi-solo runs, this can be a very valuable skill to deal with some specifically hard encounters (my solo monk's ass was saved by stalking and stabbing people with Dagger of Venom (+running away/going invisible + stalking in again to do the same) in the last 2 fights of BG1)
- Favoured enemy, charm animal, some druidic spells and stuff can be quite useful.
Other than that, F/C can not get GM so the only real pro of F/C is moot. Unless you'd want to go dual F->C
Cons
- ... "Good Alignment" :-)
A two people party whith the multi classes you choose is very versatile and easy to micromanage, and there are situations where a lot of mlee APR is the best solution. Whith Imoen DWer, a Planetar and a Greater Elemental and all the party IHasted, including gated helpers, you will have a lot of mlee APR.
Use the versatility at your advantage!
@Southpaw, not only Rangers can stalk in the shadows, also T/M can hide and backstab. In this party the whole party can go invisible whithout potions or spells, infinite times x day, and eventually backstab. A huge tactical advantage. Is another side of the versatility I was talking about.
Or even swords that he can not be proficent in but can weld whith thief UAI, like Foebane, if you don't mind to loose some thaco MH.
Or think about Crom MH and Scarlet OH, nasty....... She can be proficent whith Scarlet and only 2 THACO penalization whith STR bonus and weapon enchantment make the impossibility to be proficent whith MH a non issue. 6APR, 4 hard damaging and 2 poisoning, a pretty capable little fighter girl, from a dual that is supposed to be mainly a caster......