Help a noob and his future mage
Ok everybody, I'm really new to this game, except for a BG2 demo played years ago. I'd like to begin my first adventure in the BGEE world with a mage. I don't want a stand alone character, but a good mage who is able to support the group with buffs, to cast mind-blowing spells and confuse/debilitate the enemy, to elude attacks with "smart" spells (invisibility, teleporting... ), to counterattack other mages with dispells... I'm not really interested in magic projectiles, I will use another character for such things. So here are some questions:
1) Is that possible? I mean, can i have such versatility in one character?
2) I think that intelligence is the primary stat for a mage, but what other stats do I need?
3) What's the difference between a mage and a sorcerer?
4) What's the difference between a generic mage and a specialized one?
5) On what kind of weapon shall I focus?
6) Is there a limit to the number of spells I can know (not memorize) ?
If there are other noobs out there who wants to build a good mage, feel free to ask your questions in this thread.
1) Is that possible? I mean, can i have such versatility in one character?
2) I think that intelligence is the primary stat for a mage, but what other stats do I need?
3) What's the difference between a mage and a sorcerer?
4) What's the difference between a generic mage and a specialized one?
5) On what kind of weapon shall I focus?
6) Is there a limit to the number of spells I can know (not memorize) ?
If there are other noobs out there who wants to build a good mage, feel free to ask your questions in this thread.
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2)Read this: http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Races_and_Stats#Strength
So you go for a maximum of 16 con, as much dex as you can afford and 18 wis if you're planning to take this character to higher levels in Baldur's Gate 2 (to make use of the Wish spells).
3)I'll answer this one in another post.
4)The Specialist gain bonus spell slots for sacrificing part of its potential versatility. But since being potentially capable of casting any spell doesn't guarantee you'll cast spells of every school, rule of thumb is specialize if you can.
5) Ranged weapons, sling and darts. I'd go for slings for convenience.
6) Conditioned by your intelligence. 18 gives you 18 spells per spell level. 19 removes the limit.
2) Intelligence is the primary stat. Dexterity and Constitution are useful for everyone and Wisdom is good for a certain high-level mage spell. Everything else is pretty unimportant.
3) A mage scribes spells from scrolls to his spellbook. He can prepare a selection of spells from his spellbook every time he rests. This is what gives the wizard his versatility, he can tailor what spells he has based on the situation. A sorcerer on the other hand has a set list of spells which he can cast a certain number of times a day. He has more spells per day than the wizard, but he lacks versatility. He also has no primary casting stat. (This is an oversight by the game developers, in D&D the casting stat of the sorcerer is Charisma).
4) A generic mage can cast spells from any school. A specialised mage has more spell slots than a generic mage (so he can cast more spells per day) but the tradeoff is he has to focus on one school of magic at the cost of another. What this means in game terms is that you are forever barred from learning or casting spells of a particular school. For example, if you specialise in illusion, you can't cast necromancy spells. From the role you want for your character I would recommend specialising in Illusion (barred schools Necromancy and Abjuration) or Enchantment (barred school invocation). Here is a handy guide to all the different schools. http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/iwd/character/classes/wizards/
5) It doesn't really matter, but I usually prefer Staffs and Slings. Make sure you specialise in a ranged weapon, if you take your wizard into melee then you're doing it wrong.
6) There is a limit based on your intelligence score, which is one of the reasons you should max Int (more spells is always good), if you get to 19 Int by raising one of your stats then the limit is removed.
For buffing alone, you might consider a cleric or cleric mage, perhaps even a Skald (bard kit) as they have innate buffing skill (song) and will get all the spells mages can, up to level six of the spellbook.
Wizards are the scholarly spellcasters who prepare their spells, Sorcerers are the inherent spellcasters who call magic spontaneously.
The Wizard knows more spells, but must prepare them before hand and has a tighter limit to his overall spellcasting. The Sorcerer may cast more often but knows fewer spells - nonetheless, the Sorcerer cast from a mana pool, as opposed to traditional vancian spellcasting (spell slots).
The difference between them is that the Wizard has greater potential versatility while the Sorcerer has better tuned actual versatility.
What I mean by this is that the Wizard *can* be prepared for every situation, especially if he already knows what he'll face. If you're going to fight undead, you won't prepare spells that don't work on undead, such as most Enchantment spells. Better, you'll cherry pick those spells that are specifically tuned against them.
However, if the Wizard wants to make full use of his potential versatility, he might memorize one of each attractive spell, becoming less versatile than the Sorcerer in some ways. A Wizard who memorizes 1 Sleep, 1 Magic Missile, 1 Identify and 1 Reflected Image might suffer if he needs another Sleep or Identify spell - the Sorcerer would cast from a 'Mana Pool' of 6 (example) spell points, so if he knows Sleep and Identify, he can cast as many he actually needs.
However, a smart Sorcerer won't know Sleep. In Baldur's Gate you have no way to replace old spells, so spells like Sleep, that grow obsolete over time, generally won't be picked. And there are many spells that grow obsolete, for varied reasons. Furthermore, the Wizard not only can memorize spells according to his level, he also reaches higher spell levels quicker.
The conclusion I reach is that Wizards are interesting for playthroughs that start from level 1. The Sorcerer might be able to cast some more pisspoor Magic Missiles then, but he'd best not have Sleep.
But the most important thing to note is that the Sorcerer is best for experience players, who already know which spells are ok for what situations. A Sorcerer with bad spell choices is eternal.
Edit: Another thing that I forgot to mention is that the Sorcerer has no casting stat in Baldur's Gate, even if its stated that Charisma acts as such. Unless Beamdog changed that for the Enhanced Edition, of course.
http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/bg/character/spells/wizard/
Personally I think Grease is often underrated. Basically anything that slows, stuns or roots your enemy is helping your party in combat.
Mages don't usually have many buff spells that make their allies stronger, that is usually the Cleric in the group though they do have some buff spells. Most of the mages support spells are combat spells.
Grease, web, stinking cloud etc at low levels can allow your party to annihilate enemies before they even get close to you.
As for sleep, enemies receive a -3 to saving throws against this spell, in comparison to no penalty vs grease; as suggested by Aliteri, good wizards prepare the right spells for the situation at hand.
Other people have already gone into the stat breakdown you will need so I will not detail that further.
The only things I can add is: summon a familiar as soon as you can for the bonus HP, then put it in your pack and never take it out again because you take a permenant penalty if it dies. Also, scribe all the scrolls you find to your spellbook, even if you don't see it's use. If it turns out you do need it it's a lot easier to rest and memorize it out of your spellbook than trudge all the way back to town.
See here: http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts#Bard
At level 8, a bard will have three level 1 spells, three level 2 spells, and just one level 3 spell. That's pretty much a few Magic Missles and Horrors and something else.
It's a fun support class but very different from a pure caster kind of experience.
Powergaming a Human Mage, then I'd suggest start with these stats:
STR 18
DEX 18
CON 15
INT 18
WIS 15
CHA 3 or above (Any spare points I have left, I put in CHA when I start) My CHA is usually around 6, 7 or 8.
After you get the Manuals/Tomes, your stats will be:
STR 19
DEX 19
CON 16 (Max hit points)
INT 19
WIS 18 (3 x Wisdom Tomes)
CHA 4 or above
Personally, I would go ELF Mage for the extra Dexterity and Armor Class (Monsters harder to hit you). After the Manuals/Tomes, your stats will be:
STR 19
DEX 20 (19 starting score)
CON 16 (Max hit points)
INT 19
WIS 18 (3 x Wisdom Tomes)
CHA 9 (minimum starting score is 8)
Don't put more than 15 in CON. There's a book in the game that will increase your CON to 16, which gives you your Max hit points. Any more than 16 points and it's a waste and has no effect on your character.
I absolutely cringe when I see players with 17 or 18 CON for a Mage since those stats are meaningless.
Wisdom can be around 13 or 14 when you start but I prefer to have it at 15 at the start of the game and any points left over, I put in CHA. Generic Mage can learn all spells. Specialised mage can't use all spells, but they get an extra spell slot for their spells they do know.
I prefer Generic mages so I can use all the spells. Staffs and slings. Slings first and then staff as you will be using your sling at the back of your party instead of your staff most of the time. It depends on your INT stat. The better your Intelligence, the more spells you can learn.
A pure mage doesn't need strength. You can bet by more than well enough with just 10. I also don't see the need to get wisdom that high. Yeah okay Wish is a good spell in BG2 and it's based off your wisdom, BUT WAIT: there are potions that temporarily grant you 18 wisdom and they are cheap and plentiful.
Wizards, you'll want max dexterity, at least 15 constitution, 18 intelligence. Anything else is pure bonus. Also, the roll you're recommending is insane even for my standards, and I spend hours rerolling til I get a sufficiently munchkin character.
Unless you are planning on dual-classing to something else (which you should not. Dual-class INTO mage, never away from it), there is very, very little reason to beef up strength on a mage. In fact, I'd go as far to say there is very little to no reason to have more than 7 wisdom on a mage, too.
I'd also stay away from humans for a single class mage. Both elves and gnomes make better mages. Personally, I love the elven DEX bonus, but the gnome's INT and saving throw bonuses are great too.
The only reason to go human is if you're really desperate to make sure all the romance content is available in BG2, but that's not something I'd expect from a power gamer either.
Well enough might be okay to get by, but a 10 STR is atrocious when carrying stuff once you've outfitted yourself. And you will run out of inventory room with your STR based characters. The OP doesn't want a mage that gets by which is what I got from his post. Why buy and resort to potions when you can have WIS that high anyway? Are you serious? That roll is an 87 for the Human which is easy to get. Anything over 80 is dead easy. Anything over 90 is hard and will take hours to do.
From a Powergaming perspective, there is. And no more than 7 wisdom? You can't be serious.
The strength tables in case you're curious. What are you even carrying on your mage that will get him beyond 70 lbs. carry weight, anyway? Equipment shouldn't take up much more than 20 lbs. for a mage. Maybe another 10 lbs. to carry a spellbook and a gem bag but that's all to save more space. Then let's say another 15 lbs. of potions. Still a ton of room there on just a 10 str guy. Chances are unless you really beef up charisma on a mage, you'll be able to get to 12 or 14 strength and that is more than enough room for a mage.
Also please don't make me go do math to figure out the statistics on getting a roll of 87. That is not easy, especially on a human as they have the worst rolls in the game because all stats are minimum 3 except your class-required stat. It's not easy, though. Possible, yes; Easy and worth your time, no. And this is coming from a guy who wrote the damn guide on strategies to beat the game where a single death means you start over from the beginning.
I meta-game the hell out of Baldur's Gate and the only argument I can see for maxing strength on a straight wizard is out of convenience.
2) Wisdom does jack all for you unless you're a divine spellcaster. Lore value means nothing on anyone outside a Bard, especially your mage. Unless you're a conjurer, you'll probably know Identify by the time you leave Candlekeep.
The ONLY use it has for mages beyond that is making better use of Wish. That's it. You can't get that spell til halfway through BG2 and even then, while it is pretty good, it's not something most people rely on a daily basis. If you really need to use it, use a wisdom potion. Why waste time rolling for an ungodly roll just to throw it away on a stat that ONLY matters for A SINGLE spell you can't even pick up and use til the sequel? Consumables are your friends. Abuse them. If you're a power gamer, surely you understand this concept.
The reason I say 7 is because you'll boost yourself to 10 by the end of BG1 meaning you no longer suffer the negative lore value. Honestly, as much of a dump stat as Charisma usually is, I'd rather have higher Charisma than Wisdom. It serves more of a beneficial function in BG1 than wisdom does. Easily.
3) Explain why I need more than 7 wisdom. Give me a compelling argument for having higher wisdom than even charisma. "Are you serious?" is not an argument. And yes, I am serious. Wisdom is a dump stat over even Charisma because even if you go to your minimum values, you end up getting it back to semi-competent levels from the stat tomes.
There is one exception to this rule and that applies to the races which gain saving throw bonuses based on their CON scores. These bonuses are calculated on character creation and never change regardless of what your CON score changes to.
The only justification for a Mage to ever have 18 CON is to get the max saving throw bonuses when playing a Gnome Illusionist. As mentioned above to get this full bonus (+5 to most saves) you would need to have 18 CON at the character creation stage - so ending up with a 19 CON Mage by end of game.
Secondly, all those drawers in candlekeep at the start of the game? My 18 STR Mage can break them open while your 10 STR Mage can only wonder what's in them.
Thirdly, carrying loot.
And finally, a Mage in Melee with 19 STR is deadly in BG1. I've played so many that I know from experience.
So who's going to carry all that loot when you only have a 3 or 4 member party? Not everyone takes 6 party members. Certainly not *your* mage because he's took weak to carry anything. While my Mage doesn't have to worry about weight restrictions.
Hang on. One minute you're saying 10 is more than enough Strengh and now you're talking about 12 or 14 STR? Why talk about 12 or 14 STR when you said yourself, "Still a ton of room there on just a 10 str guy." Pure BS. You don't need statistics to figure out an 87 or even 80+ rolls. You're not aiming to get 18/00 STR on this character. I can roll a 80+ characters under 5 minutes. The most would be around 6 or 7 minutes if you're just plain unlucky. When you play IWD with creating 6 characters, I can roll 6 x 80+ stat characters in less than 25 minutes.
And a guy who wrote game guides on strategies to beat the game? LMAO at that. Obviously you never wrote a guide on powergaming and min/maxing your character to their full potential.
What do you mean by convenience? And what's wrong with convenience? We are talking about 'Powergaming' after all. Powergaming is all about convenience. Obviously your so called metagaming is just theory crafting and not actual playing experience, unlike my actual playing experience.
I'll take actual playing experience over BS theory crafting any day.
Wisdom is great for the Wish spell. If you have the extra points, why not put it into WIS? Oh that's right, you'd rather buy a potion instead. I'd rather have the knowledge I can cast the Wish spell anytime I like instead of carting around potions all the time.
And we're talking powergaming here. It's convenient to have 18 WIS than having to rely on potions all the time. And why would you not prepare your character for BG2 when you're powergaming? Of course you want the best out of your character. Giving your character poor to average stats and relying on consumables all the time is a pretty piss poor take on powergaming. It's more like a waste of time when you can have those stats automatically/
Any powergamer worth their salt would min/max their stats instead of relying on consumables. It's obvious you don't understand the concept of powergaming.
And you're not wasting time on ungodly rolls with 80+ stats. LMFAO at that suggestion. What reality do you live in? Anybody can roll 80+ stats on any character under 5 minutes. Less than 10 minutes if they're slow at adding up.
Unless they take 5 minutes to roll one set of stats, use a calculator to add your stats up and realise they don't have 80 or more, then obviously it might takes hours.
here's a tip. Any roll that has any single digits just completely ignore and roll again. What you're aiming for is all stats with double digits and atleast four of them with 15 or more. You could easily roll 20 times in a minute. That's 100 rolls in 5 minutes. If you can't get an 80+ character in 100 rolls, then I just don't believe you.
So for example you roll the following:
Str 15
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 17
Cha 16
That's 84
Change your stats around and you'll get something like this:
Str 15
Dex 18
Con 15
Int 18
Wis 15
Cha 3
And you want people to believe that rolling more than 80 will take hours. Complete BS.
I have an IWD party of 6 mages with the following combined scores: 83, 83, 80, 85, 83, 82 and that took me less than 25 minutes to do. And have the screen shots to prove it. And I wasn't even powergaming to the point that I would with Baldurs Gate with re-rolls. Hours to do one character? Total BS. WTF? Earlier in your post you said:
"Wisdom does jack all for you unless you're a divine spellcaster. Lore value means nothing on anyone outside a Bard, especially your mage."
Now you'e saying you want to boost your WIS so you no longer suffer negative lore Value?
One minute you say, "Lore means nothing, especially for your mage". Then later on, you want to boost your WIS and say "no longer suffer negative lore value". Make up your mind!
Now I have to seriously question your ability to write game guides.
The problem with you is that you've already made up your mind. No 'compelling' argument can convice you otherwise.
What I find strange is when I suggest to the OP about powergaming, you seem to take issue with it. And then suggest that you should take poor to mediocre stats. Then you go on about things like WIS means jack all and then later on, you want to boost WIS so you don't suffer negative lore value. And similar with needing only 10 STR and then talking later on about 12 or 14 STR.
How about contributing something worthwhile to the thread and suggesting to the OP what he should do with his Mage, whether he wants to run a normal Mage or a Powergamed Mage. It seems to me you want the OP to take a normal Mage with your average/normal stats. If that's the case, then suggest it to the OP.
@Vidar: End of the day, all you really need on mage is dexterity, constitution (and even then no more than 16 unless you're a gnome), and intelligence. Everything else is just gravy. For ease of use, I'd try to hit at least 10 in each other stat, preferably dumping wisdom if you really have to.
@decado: This is not entirely true. The game re-calculates saving throw bonuses due to constitution upon level up. That's why Montaron, Kagain, Quayle, Yeslick, Alora, etc. always gains such huge bonuses to saving throws on their first level up.
So if you have 17 constitution with a gnome mage and bump it to 18 with the tome, it would then give that extra +1 saving throw to spells and wands you missed out by only have 17 at character creation upon your next level up.
1. You can have a great mage that you don't take too seriously with three good stats being Maximum Int, Dex and Con and spend the rest on whatever points you deem fit on Str, Wis and Cha. This will still be a great Mage through BG2 and ToB. Nothing wrong with this Mage.
2. Powergame your character to get the best possible build out of it (because you've played the Baldurs Gate saga so much you have it nearly memorised) and have Maximum stats in skills that you know will carry on and more importanly benefit your character through BG2 and ToB.
The second option is what I proposed to the OP in my original response in regards to Powergaming.
I just want you to read over all these quotes. You typed it all. Anyone willing to scroll up will see it.
You attacked my character and competency 13 times. You feign incredulity at every suggestion I have, and fail to understand a lot of my points. Instead of asking for clarification, you attack me for them.
If we're going to throw the "obvious" word around as casually as you have, you "obviously" are a jerk and incapable of rational thought.
Doesn't feel good when people say shit like that, does it? Change your tone if you want people to respond to you.
And because I spent the last little while compiling and counting the sheer number of inflammatory things you've send my direction, I might as well respond to a few of your points.
1.) Convenience is relative. I have never in my experiences beating the entire saga needed high strength or wisdom on a mage Bhaalspawn. Unless you're planning to solo the game, I don't see the need to roid up strength to max when I could even it out and reduce charisma and wisdom penalties. What are you lugging around that's so heavy and takes up all your inventory anyway? I'm curious to see what your inventory looks like if you're struggling to run with sub-18 strength on a mage, especially if you don't use consumables.
Personally, I find it more convenient to put my charisma at around 7 rather than 3, and roll with 10 strength than I do to have the ability to dump a bunch of armors in my Mage's inventory. It means I can recruit Kivan or Shar-Teel into my party without relying on another NPC to do it for me. Losing out on being able to dump a bunch of splint mails on my mage doesn't mean a whole lot to me. That's what Minsc, Korgan, Valygar, Keldorn and Anomen are for in BG2. In BG1, there is a significant dearth of items of weight that are also valuable. If you manage to fill up the inventory of your entire party and still can't carry something, go to town and sell it.
It's nice to carry more than 70 lbs of crap on a character just for carrying loot, but smart distribution of loot among your party goes a long way. I've discovered I never need more than 2 guys with 17+ strength to carry literally everything I could ever need to haul out from any dungeon. This is based on lots of play experience. If you pull out that bullshit "you don't know what you're talking about" attitude with me again, well. Okay. You'd just be trolling at that point.
2.) You can statistically figure out your chance for any given roll. Also, you're suggested roll was not 80+. It was specifically 87. There's a big difference between a roll of 80 and 87. Rolling just an 80 vs. the 87 you suggested is the difference between having 11 str and 18, or 15 wisdom and just 8. So before you start telling me to figure out what I'm arguing, figure it out yourself please.
Rolling 80-85 is fairly easy, you're right. But that is not what you said. You said 87. Each point above 83 gets exponentially more difficult to roll. I will go grab a math major if you want me to prove this to you rather than rely on your personal anecdotes.
3.) Lore is not important. However, if you really want to avoid the penalties to it, you can rest comfortably at 7. That was all I meant with that. I personally tend to totally dump it on mages.
Oddly enough, the mages where lore is most important are Conjurers because they cannot get Identify. But, they also cannot cast Wish as that is a divination spell.
4.) Going back to the convenience thing, is it more convenient to spend a half hour rolling a character just to maximize use of a single, solitary late game spell, or use a cheap potion of which you'll have plenty of just from looting by the time you can cast it? If clicking a single extra button in order to maximize use of a very situational spell is too much for you, perhaps you shouldn't be playing a mage at all. Just roll all half-orc fighters with 19 strength and attack command all the enemies. Thinking critically about how to overcome encounters by any means necessary is too difficult, apparently.
5.) Clearly having max of every stat is superior to having ones that are not maxed. However, that's not really what the OP was asking. He was wondering how best to set up a mage and I offered an opinion about what is absolutely vital to getting the most out of your wizard rather than things that are superfluous to how you'll use that character. 18 and eventually 19 strength does help you in melee; however it's pretty reckless to go and whack things with a quarterstaff when you're guy only gets at max 6 HP a level no matter how potentially dangerous he is in melee.
If you REALLY need strength on your mage, use the level 2 spell "Strength." It gets you 18/01 strength for hours at a time. (I know it says 18/50, but there is literally no difference between 18/01 and 18/50 so I prefer to think of it as the lower end.) It isn't as good as having 19 permanent strength, but it's better than a raw 18. And it also means you can freely beef up your other stats without having to completely min/max.
6.) I am the admin and main contributor to this site. Go look over it before you criticize me blindly again.