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Help a noob and his future mage

VidarVidar Member Posts: 6
edited September 2012 in New Players (NO SPOILERS!)
Ok everybody, I'm really new to this game, except for a BG2 demo played years ago. I'd like to begin my first adventure in the BGEE world with a mage. I don't want a stand alone character, but a good mage who is able to support the group with buffs, to cast mind-blowing spells and confuse/debilitate the enemy, to elude attacks with "smart" spells (invisibility, teleporting... ), to counterattack other mages with dispells... I'm not really interested in magic projectiles, I will use another character for such things. So here are some questions:

1) Is that possible? I mean, can i have such versatility in one character?

2) I think that intelligence is the primary stat for a mage, but what other stats do I need?

3) What's the difference between a mage and a sorcerer?

4) What's the difference between a generic mage and a specialized one?

5) On what kind of weapon shall I focus?

6) Is there a limit to the number of spells I can know (not memorize) ?

If there are other noobs out there who wants to build a good mage, feel free to ask your questions in this thread.
Teflon
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Comments

  • MoomintrollMoomintroll Member Posts: 1,498
    I think you'll find the best ways to support your party (for the first third of the game perhaps?) will be casting sleep and charm on enemies, these spells are the only ones I can think of that are "powerful" in the low level game. Web is also a very strong spell but I can't remember when you pick it up.

    For buffing alone, you might consider a cleric or cleric mage, perhaps even a Skald (bard kit) as they have innate buffing skill (song) and will get all the spells mages can, up to level six of the spellbook.
    VidarSscoootzZ
  • AliteriAliteri Member Posts: 308
    edited September 2012
    It just occured to me that I called Mages Wizards like in 3rd edition =D. Just to clarify that.

    Wizards are the scholarly spellcasters who prepare their spells, Sorcerers are the inherent spellcasters who call magic spontaneously.

    The Wizard knows more spells, but must prepare them before hand and has a tighter limit to his overall spellcasting. The Sorcerer may cast more often but knows fewer spells - nonetheless, the Sorcerer cast from a mana pool, as opposed to traditional vancian spellcasting (spell slots).

    The difference between them is that the Wizard has greater potential versatility while the Sorcerer has better tuned actual versatility.

    What I mean by this is that the Wizard *can* be prepared for every situation, especially if he already knows what he'll face. If you're going to fight undead, you won't prepare spells that don't work on undead, such as most Enchantment spells. Better, you'll cherry pick those spells that are specifically tuned against them.

    However, if the Wizard wants to make full use of his potential versatility, he might memorize one of each attractive spell, becoming less versatile than the Sorcerer in some ways. A Wizard who memorizes 1 Sleep, 1 Magic Missile, 1 Identify and 1 Reflected Image might suffer if he needs another Sleep or Identify spell - the Sorcerer would cast from a 'Mana Pool' of 6 (example) spell points, so if he knows Sleep and Identify, he can cast as many he actually needs.

    However, a smart Sorcerer won't know Sleep. In Baldur's Gate you have no way to replace old spells, so spells like Sleep, that grow obsolete over time, generally won't be picked. And there are many spells that grow obsolete, for varied reasons. Furthermore, the Wizard not only can memorize spells according to his level, he also reaches higher spell levels quicker.

    The conclusion I reach is that Wizards are interesting for playthroughs that start from level 1. The Sorcerer might be able to cast some more pisspoor Magic Missiles then, but he'd best not have Sleep.

    But the most important thing to note is that the Sorcerer is best for experience players, who already know which spells are ok for what situations. A Sorcerer with bad spell choices is eternal.

    Edit: Another thing that I forgot to mention is that the Sorcerer has no casting stat in Baldur's Gate, even if its stated that Charisma acts as such. Unless Beamdog changed that for the Enhanced Edition, of course.
    VidarGrandeC
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862
    There are some books that grant stats, so Con is not really needed to start at 16. If you really want to optimize a single protagonist.
    Vidar
  • RabainRabain Member Posts: 39
    This is also useful for looking at low level spells that might be of use to you.

    http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/bg/character/spells/wizard/

    Personally I think Grease is often underrated. Basically anything that slows, stuns or roots your enemy is helping your party in combat.

    Mages don't usually have many buff spells that make their allies stronger, that is usually the Cleric in the group though they do have some buff spells. Most of the mages support spells are combat spells.

    Grease, web, stinking cloud etc at low levels can allow your party to annihilate enemies before they even get close to you.
    VidarSscoootzZ
  • AliteriAliteri Member Posts: 308
    Rabain said:

    Personally I think Grease is often underrated. Basically anything that slows, stuns or roots your enemy is helping your party in combat.

    I agree, especially considering that not everything is vulnerable to Sleep.
    Vidarsparkleav
  • MoomintrollMoomintroll Member Posts: 1,498
    I'd suggest blind over grease if we are talking about single, more powerful enemies. Grease may slow an enemy but if you succeed in blinding them you will leave them standing, useless, while you pepper them with arrows.

    As for sleep, enemies receive a -3 to saving throws against this spell, in comparison to no penalty vs grease; as suggested by Aliteri, good wizards prepare the right spells for the situation at hand.
    Vidar
  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    Experimenting with spells is a good thing. I was never a fan of sleep, as it doesn't seem that great to me. Only, it is really powerful in the game. Be creative with spells and see what works well for you. Mages do better than sorcerors here.
    MoomintrollVidar
  • kilroy_was_herekilroy_was_here Member Posts: 455
    Since you haven't really gotten into BG before I would definitely suggest a mage over a sorcerer or even a specialist mage. Both the sorcerer and the specialist have the potential to get to a situation where they are unable to cast/learn the spell you need in a given situation. The less experience you as a player have with the game the more often these situations will come up.

    Other people have already gone into the stat breakdown you will need so I will not detail that further.

    The only things I can add is: summon a familiar as soon as you can for the bonus HP, then put it in your pack and never take it out again because you take a permenant penalty if it dies. Also, scribe all the scrolls you find to your spellbook, even if you don't see it's use. If it turns out you do need it it's a lot easier to rest and memorize it out of your spellbook than trudge all the way back to town.
    MoomintrollBrudeVidarSscoootzZ
  • BrudeBrude Member Posts: 560

    For buffing alone, you might consider a cleric or cleric mage, perhaps even a Skald (bard kit) as they have innate buffing skill (song) and will get all the spells mages can, up to level six of the spellbook.

    Caution: Bards have an extremely limited spell book in BG1, and they don't get their first spell until level 2.

    See here: http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts#Bard

    At level 8, a bard will have three level 1 spells, three level 2 spells, and just one level 3 spell. That's pretty much a few Magic Missles and Horrors and something else.

    It's a fun support class but very different from a pure caster kind of experience.
    MoomintrollVidar
  • Metal_HurlantMetal_Hurlant Member Posts: 324
    edited September 2012
    Vidar said:


    2) I think that intelligence is the primary stat for a mage, but what other stats do I need?

    If you want to powergame a Human Mage, then I'd say all your stats are important except for Charisma. Intelligence being the most important stat of all.

    Powergaming a Human Mage, then I'd suggest start with these stats:

    STR 18
    DEX 18
    CON 15
    INT 18
    WIS 15
    CHA 3 or above (Any spare points I have left, I put in CHA when I start) My CHA is usually around 6, 7 or 8.

    After you get the Manuals/Tomes, your stats will be:

    STR 19
    DEX 19
    CON 16 (Max hit points)
    INT 19
    WIS 18 (3 x Wisdom Tomes)
    CHA 4 or above


    Personally, I would go ELF Mage for the extra Dexterity and Armor Class (Monsters harder to hit you). After the Manuals/Tomes, your stats will be:

    STR 19
    DEX 20 (19 starting score)
    CON 16 (Max hit points)
    INT 19
    WIS 18 (3 x Wisdom Tomes)
    CHA 9 (minimum starting score is 8)

    Don't put more than 15 in CON. There's a book in the game that will increase your CON to 16, which gives you your Max hit points. Any more than 16 points and it's a waste and has no effect on your character.

    I absolutely cringe when I see players with 17 or 18 CON for a Mage since those stats are meaningless.

    Wisdom can be around 13 or 14 when you start but I prefer to have it at 15 at the start of the game and any points left over, I put in CHA.
    Vidar said:


    4) What's the difference between a generic mage and a specialized one?

    Generic Mage can learn all spells. Specialised mage can't use all spells, but they get an extra spell slot for their spells they do know.

    I prefer Generic mages so I can use all the spells.
    Vidar said:


    5) On what kind of weapon shall I focus?

    Staffs and slings. Slings first and then staff as you will be using your sling at the back of your party instead of your staff most of the time.
    Vidar said:


    6) Is there a limit to the number of spells I can know (not memorize) ?

    It depends on your INT stat. The better your Intelligence, the more spells you can learn.
    Post edited by Metal_Hurlant on
    VidarHiro_ProtagonistTeflonSscoootzZ
  • BrudeBrude Member Posts: 560
    edited September 2012

    I'd also stay away from humans for a single class mage. Both elves and gnomes make better mages. Personally, I love the elven DEX bonus, but the gnome's INT and saving throw bonuses are great too.

    The only reason to go human is if you're really desperate to make sure all the romance content is available in BG2, but that's not something I'd expect from a power gamer either. :D
    Vidar
  • Metal_HurlantMetal_Hurlant Member Posts: 324



    Er... why?

    Did you miss my 'powergaming' part from the start?


    A pure mage doesn't need strength. You can bet by more than well enough with just 10.

    Well enough might be okay to get by, but a 10 STR is atrocious when carrying stuff once you've outfitted yourself. And you will run out of inventory room with your STR based characters. The OP doesn't want a mage that gets by which is what I got from his post.



    I also don't see the need to get wisdom that high. Yeah okay Wish is a good spell in BG2 and it's based off your wisdom, BUT WAIT: there are potions that temporarily grant you 18 wisdom and they are cheap and plentiful.

    Why buy and resort to potions when you can have WIS that high anyway?


    Also, the roll you're recommending is insane even for my standards, and I spend hours rerolling til I get a sufficiently munchkin character.

    Are you serious? That roll is an 87 for the Human which is easy to get. Anything over 80 is dead easy. Anything over 90 is hard and will take hours to do.


    there is very, very little reason to beef up strength on a mage. In fact, I'd go as far to say there is very little to no reason to have more than 7 wisdom on a mage, too.

    From a Powergaming perspective, there is. And no more than 7 wisdom? You can't be serious.
    VidarHiro_ProtagonistTeflon
  • GriegGrieg Member Posts: 507
    Actually as I played whole game with not-dual classed single mage (not specialist) I would say that 8-10 str is pretty inconvenient when you play I would recommend minimum: 12-14 STR, also second most important decision was that I never rerolled HP rolls (during level up every player throw dice how much Hit Points he get, you can save before level up [and after receiving enough experience] and then load every time you get not full: 4hp+bonus condition HP), and in the BG2 with small amount of hp I had really terrible times. Wisdom is useful with 1 high level spell which is I think still only in BG2, so not so important thing. There is actually not much conversations depended on charisma so it's not the key, but charisma is useful when you don't want to have whole party scared before some more powerful enemies. Condition is important is important up to 16, gives you extra HP per level. Dexterity gives you lower Armor Class=>lower - better - harder to hit you.
  • VidarVidar Member Posts: 6
    Thanks to all for your answers. I just want to say that I'm going human despite the fact elves are better mages. I need to identify myself with my pg to enjoy the game, also I will make choices that I feel right for my character, no matter the consequences. I wont play "good" in order to get a super special flawless weapon if my character is evil.
    StormvesselSscoootzZ
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054


    Don't put more than 15 in CON. There's a book in the game that will increase your CON to 16, which gives you your Max hit points. Any more than 16 points and it's a waste and has no effect on your character.

    I absolutely cringe when I see players with 17 or 18 CON for a Mage since those stats are meaningless.

    I'd just like to expand this a bit. When you gain extra CON in BG your bonus HP are retroactively figured out, so you can happily start with 15 CON and then get to 16 with the Tome and lose out on nothing.

    There is one exception to this rule and that applies to the races which gain saving throw bonuses based on their CON scores. These bonuses are calculated on character creation and never change regardless of what your CON score changes to.

    The only justification for a Mage to ever have 18 CON is to get the max saving throw bonuses when playing a Gnome Illusionist. As mentioned above to get this full bonus (+5 to most saves) you would need to have 18 CON at the character creation stage - so ending up with a 19 CON Mage by end of game.
    VidarGrandeC
  • drechanadrechana Member Posts: 53
    Nice and simple as far as the spells go. Read, read lots. Read all the descriptions and compare and see what you can make. I would advise however to always have a mage start with the sling proficiency and have Magic Missile in your spellbook :)
    Vidar
  • Metal_HurlantMetal_Hurlant Member Posts: 324
    edited September 2012


    1) Name one good reason to go to 18 strength. Ever. (I mean pure 18, not 18/**) Using the tome to get it to 19? Okay. But even then, what the heck is that going to do for your mage? He won't be competent in melee without buffs that all end up setting your strength to a different value to begin with.

    Firstly you can't go 18/** for a mage. It's only 18. And with the tome, it's an automatic 19.

    Secondly, all those drawers in candlekeep at the start of the game? My 18 STR Mage can break them open while your 10 STR Mage can only wonder what's in them.

    Thirdly, carrying loot.

    And finally, a Mage in Melee with 19 STR is deadly in BG1. I've played so many that I know from experience.


    What are you even carrying on your mage that will get him beyond 70 lbs. carry weight, anyway? Equipment shouldn't take up much more than 20 lbs. for a mage. Maybe another 10 lbs. to carry a spellbook and a gem bag but that's all to save more space. Then let's say another 15 lbs. of potions. Still a ton of room there on just a 10 str guy.

    So who's going to carry all that loot when you only have a 3 or 4 member party? Not everyone takes 6 party members. Certainly not *your* mage because he's took weak to carry anything. While my Mage doesn't have to worry about weight restrictions.

    Chances are unless you really beef up charisma on a mage, you'll be able to get to 12 or 14 strength and that is more than enough room for a mage.

    Hang on. One minute you're saying 10 is more than enough Strengh and now you're talking about 12 or 14 STR? Why talk about 12 or 14 STR when you said yourself, "Still a ton of room there on just a 10 str guy."


    Also please don't make me go do math to figure out the statistics on getting a roll of 87. That is not easy, especially on a human as they have the worst rolls in the game because all stats are minimum 3 except your class-required stat. It's not easy, though. Possible, yes; Easy and worth your time, no. And this is coming from a guy who wrote the damn guide on strategies to beat the game where a single death means you start over from the beginning.

    Pure BS. You don't need statistics to figure out an 87 or even 80+ rolls. You're not aiming to get 18/00 STR on this character. I can roll a 80+ characters under 5 minutes. The most would be around 6 or 7 minutes if you're just plain unlucky. When you play IWD with creating 6 characters, I can roll 6 x 80+ stat characters in less than 25 minutes.

    And a guy who wrote game guides on strategies to beat the game? LMAO at that. Obviously you never wrote a guide on powergaming and min/maxing your character to their full potential.


    I meta-game the hell out of Baldur's Gate and the only argument I can see for maxing strength on a straight wizard is out of convenience.

    What do you mean by convenience? And what's wrong with convenience? We are talking about 'Powergaming' after all. Powergaming is all about convenience. Obviously your so called metagaming is just theory crafting and not actual playing experience, unlike my actual playing experience.

    I'll take actual playing experience over BS theory crafting any day.


    2) Wisdom does jack all for you unless you're a divine spellcaster. Lore value means nothing on anyone outside a Bard, especially your mage. Unless you're a conjurer, you'll probably know Identify by the time you leave Candlekeep.

    Wisdom is great for the Wish spell. If you have the extra points, why not put it into WIS? Oh that's right, you'd rather buy a potion instead. I'd rather have the knowledge I can cast the Wish spell anytime I like instead of carting around potions all the time.

    And we're talking powergaming here. It's convenient to have 18 WIS than having to rely on potions all the time.


    The ONLY use it has for mages beyond that is making better use of Wish. That's it. You can't get that spell til halfway through BG2 and even then, while it is pretty good, it's not something most people rely on a daily basis. If you really need to use it, use a wisdom potion. Why waste time rolling for an ungodly roll just to throw it away on a stat that ONLY matters for A SINGLE spell you can't even pick up and use til the sequel? Consumables are your friends. Abuse them. If you're a power gamer, surely you understand this concept.

    And why would you not prepare your character for BG2 when you're powergaming? Of course you want the best out of your character. Giving your character poor to average stats and relying on consumables all the time is a pretty piss poor take on powergaming. It's more like a waste of time when you can have those stats automatically/

    Any powergamer worth their salt would min/max their stats instead of relying on consumables. It's obvious you don't understand the concept of powergaming.

    And you're not wasting time on ungodly rolls with 80+ stats. LMFAO at that suggestion. What reality do you live in? Anybody can roll 80+ stats on any character under 5 minutes. Less than 10 minutes if they're slow at adding up.

    Unless they take 5 minutes to roll one set of stats, use a calculator to add your stats up and realise they don't have 80 or more, then obviously it might takes hours.

    here's a tip. Any roll that has any single digits just completely ignore and roll again. What you're aiming for is all stats with double digits and atleast four of them with 15 or more. You could easily roll 20 times in a minute. That's 100 rolls in 5 minutes. If you can't get an 80+ character in 100 rolls, then I just don't believe you.

    So for example you roll the following:

    Str 15
    Dex 10
    Con 16
    Int 10
    Wis 17
    Cha 16

    That's 84

    Change your stats around and you'll get something like this:

    Str 15
    Dex 18
    Con 15
    Int 18
    Wis 15
    Cha 3

    And you want people to believe that rolling more than 80 will take hours. Complete BS.

    I have an IWD party of 6 mages with the following combined scores: 83, 83, 80, 85, 83, 82 and that took me less than 25 minutes to do. And have the screen shots to prove it. And I wasn't even powergaming to the point that I would with Baldurs Gate with re-rolls. Hours to do one character? Total BS.


    The reason I say 7 is because you'll boost yourself to 10 by the end of BG1 meaning you no longer suffer the negative lore value. Honestly, as much of a dump stat as Charisma usually is, I'd rather have higher Charisma than Wisdom. It serves more of a beneficial function in BG1 than wisdom does. Easily.

    WTF? Earlier in your post you said:

    "Wisdom does jack all for you unless you're a divine spellcaster. Lore value means nothing on anyone outside a Bard, especially your mage."

    Now you'e saying you want to boost your WIS so you no longer suffer negative lore Value?

    One minute you say, "Lore means nothing, especially for your mage". Then later on, you want to boost your WIS and say "no longer suffer negative lore value". Make up your mind!

    Now I have to seriously question your ability to write game guides.


    3) Explain why I need more than 7 wisdom. Give me a compelling argument for having higher wisdom than even charisma. "Are you serious?" is not an argument. And yes, I am serious. Wisdom is a dump stat over even Charisma because even if you go to your minimum values, you end up getting it back to semi-competent levels from the stat tomes.

    The problem with you is that you've already made up your mind. No 'compelling' argument can convice you otherwise.

    What I find strange is when I suggest to the OP about powergaming, you seem to take issue with it. And then suggest that you should take poor to mediocre stats. Then you go on about things like WIS means jack all and then later on, you want to boost WIS so you don't suffer negative lore value. And similar with needing only 10 STR and then talking later on about 12 or 14 STR.

    How about contributing something worthwhile to the thread and suggesting to the OP what he should do with his Mage, whether he wants to run a normal Mage or a Powergamed Mage. It seems to me you want the OP to take a normal Mage with your average/normal stats. If that's the case, then suggest it to the OP.
    Post edited by Metal_Hurlant on
    VidarHiro_ProtagonistTeflonT2av
  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808

    The problem with you is that you've already made up your mind. No 'compelling' argument can convice you otherwise.

    It seems like you're doing the same thing, really. There are different ways of playing the game and different priorities. I'm certain the OP is smart enough to read all of the justifications and determine what he/she thinks works best for his/her playthrough. I think you're both right and both wrong, depending on how you look at it. But maybe I'm the one in the wrong!


    Vidar
  • MagabaraiMagabarai Member Posts: 2
    chill out
    Teflon
  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    edited September 2012
    Tanthalas Edit: Left the rest because it has good info

    @Vidar: End of the day, all you really need on mage is dexterity, constitution (and even then no more than 16 unless you're a gnome), and intelligence. Everything else is just gravy. For ease of use, I'd try to hit at least 10 in each other stat, preferably dumping wisdom if you really have to.
    decado said:


    There is one exception to this rule and that applies to the races which gain saving throw bonuses based on their CON scores. These bonuses are calculated on character creation and never change regardless of what your CON score changes to.

    @decado: This is not entirely true. The game re-calculates saving throw bonuses due to constitution upon level up. That's why Montaron, Kagain, Quayle, Yeslick, Alora, etc. always gains such huge bonuses to saving throws on their first level up.

    So if you have 17 constitution with a gnome mage and bump it to 18 with the tome, it would then give that extra +1 saving throw to spells and wands you missed out by only have 17 at character creation upon your next level up.
    Post edited by Tanthalas on
    moody_mageVidarBrude
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054


    @decado: This is not entirely true. The game re-calculates saving throw bonuses due to constitution upon level up. That's why Montaron, Kagain, Quayle, Yeslick, Alora, etc. always gains such huge bonuses to saving throws on their first level up.

    So if you have 17 constitution with a gnome mage and bump it to 18 with the tome, it would then give that extra +1 saving throw to spells and wands you missed out by only have 17 at character creation upon your next level up.

    Good to know - thanks for the correction.

  • Metal_HurlantMetal_Hurlant Member Posts: 324
    edited September 2012

    I make it a point to not argue with assholes, so I'm not going to bother to reply to the guy trying to pick a fight.

    Interesting that you say you don't want to pick a fight then resort to name calling. Real mature there. Also interesting that you accuse me of picking a fight when it was you who responded to my post in the first place and continue to do so.

    Post edited by Metal_Hurlant on
    Hiro_ProtagonistTeflon
  • Metal_HurlantMetal_Hurlant Member Posts: 324
    edited September 2012


    It seems like you're doing the same thing, really. There are different ways of playing the game and different priorities. I'm certain the OP is smart enough to read all of the justifications and determine what he/she thinks works best for his/her playthrough. I think you're both right and both wrong, depending on how you look at it. But maybe I'm the one in the wrong!

    In my view, there are at least two ways to play a Mage.

    1. You can have a great mage that you don't take too seriously with three good stats being Maximum Int, Dex and Con and spend the rest on whatever points you deem fit on Str, Wis and Cha. This will still be a great Mage through BG2 and ToB. Nothing wrong with this Mage.

    2. Powergame your character to get the best possible build out of it (because you've played the Baldurs Gate saga so much you have it nearly memorised) and have Maximum stats in skills that you know will carry on and more importanly benefit your character through BG2 and ToB.

    The second option is what I proposed to the OP in my original response in regards to Powergaming.
    Hiro_Protagonist
  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    edited September 2012


    Are you serious? That roll is an 87 for the Human which is easy to get. Anything over 80 is dead easy. Anything over 90 is hard and will take hours to do.

    And no more than 7 wisdom? You can't be serious.


    Hang on. One minute you're saying 10 is more than enough Strengh and now you're talking about 12 or 14 STR? Why talk about 12 or 14 STR when you said yourself, "Still a ton of room there on just a 10 str guy."


    Pure BS. You don't need statistics to figure out an 87 or even 80+ rolls. You're not aiming to get 18/00 STR on this character.

    And a guy who wrote game guides on strategies to beat the game? LMAO at that. Obviously you never wrote a guide on powergaming and min/maxing your character to their full potential.

    Obviously your so called metagaming is just theory crafting and not actual playing experience, unlike my actual playing experience.

    I'll take actual playing experience over BS theory crafting any day.

    And we're talking powergaming here. It's convenient to have 18 WIS than having to rely on potions all the time.


    Any powergamer worth their salt would min/max their stats instead of relying on consumables. It's obvious you don't understand the concept of powergaming.

    And you're not wasting time on ungodly rolls with 80+ stats. LMFAO at that suggestion. What reality do you live in? Anybody can roll 80+ stats on any character under 5 minutes. Less than 10 minutes if they're slow at adding up.

    That's 100 rolls in 5 minutes. If you can't get an 80+ character in 100 rolls, then I just don't believe you.

    And you want people to believe that rolling more than 80 will take hours. Complete BS.

    I have an IWD party of 6 mages with the following combined scores: 83, 83, 80, 85, 83, 82 and that took me less than 25 minutes to do. And have the screen shots to prove it. And I wasn't even powergaming to the point that I would with Baldurs Gate with re-rolls. Hours to do one character? Total BS.

    WTF? Earlier in your post you said:

    "Wisdom does jack all for you unless you're a divine spellcaster. Lore value means nothing on anyone outside a Bard, especially your mage."

    Now you'e saying you want to boost your WIS so you no longer suffer negative lore Value?

    One minute you say, "Lore means nothing, especially for your mage". Then later on, you want to boost your WIS and say "no longer suffer negative lore value". Make up your mind!

    Now I have to seriously question your ability to write game guides.

    The problem with you is that you've already made up your mind. No 'compelling' argument can convince you otherwise.

    How about contributing something worthwhile to the thread and suggesting to the OP what he should do with his Mage, whether he wants to run a normal Mage or a Powergamed Mage. It seems to me you want the OP to take a normal Mage with your average/normal stats. If that's the case, then suggest it to the OP.

    @Metal_HurIant:
    I just want you to read over all these quotes. You typed it all. Anyone willing to scroll up will see it.

    You attacked my character and competency 13 times. You feign incredulity at every suggestion I have, and fail to understand a lot of my points. Instead of asking for clarification, you attack me for them.

    If we're going to throw the "obvious" word around as casually as you have, you "obviously" are a jerk and incapable of rational thought.

    Doesn't feel good when people say shit like that, does it? Change your tone if you want people to respond to you.

    And because I spent the last little while compiling and counting the sheer number of inflammatory things you've send my direction, I might as well respond to a few of your points.

    1.) Convenience is relative. I have never in my experiences beating the entire saga needed high strength or wisdom on a mage Bhaalspawn. Unless you're planning to solo the game, I don't see the need to roid up strength to max when I could even it out and reduce charisma and wisdom penalties. What are you lugging around that's so heavy and takes up all your inventory anyway? I'm curious to see what your inventory looks like if you're struggling to run with sub-18 strength on a mage, especially if you don't use consumables.

    Personally, I find it more convenient to put my charisma at around 7 rather than 3, and roll with 10 strength than I do to have the ability to dump a bunch of armors in my Mage's inventory. It means I can recruit Kivan or Shar-Teel into my party without relying on another NPC to do it for me. Losing out on being able to dump a bunch of splint mails on my mage doesn't mean a whole lot to me. That's what Minsc, Korgan, Valygar, Keldorn and Anomen are for in BG2. In BG1, there is a significant dearth of items of weight that are also valuable. If you manage to fill up the inventory of your entire party and still can't carry something, go to town and sell it.

    It's nice to carry more than 70 lbs of crap on a character just for carrying loot, but smart distribution of loot among your party goes a long way. I've discovered I never need more than 2 guys with 17+ strength to carry literally everything I could ever need to haul out from any dungeon. This is based on lots of play experience. If you pull out that bullshit "you don't know what you're talking about" attitude with me again, well. Okay. You'd just be trolling at that point.

    2.) You can statistically figure out your chance for any given roll. Also, you're suggested roll was not 80+. It was specifically 87. There's a big difference between a roll of 80 and 87. Rolling just an 80 vs. the 87 you suggested is the difference between having 11 str and 18, or 15 wisdom and just 8. So before you start telling me to figure out what I'm arguing, figure it out yourself please.

    Rolling 80-85 is fairly easy, you're right. But that is not what you said. You said 87. Each point above 83 gets exponentially more difficult to roll. I will go grab a math major if you want me to prove this to you rather than rely on your personal anecdotes.

    3.) Lore is not important. However, if you really want to avoid the penalties to it, you can rest comfortably at 7. That was all I meant with that. I personally tend to totally dump it on mages.

    Oddly enough, the mages where lore is most important are Conjurers because they cannot get Identify. But, they also cannot cast Wish as that is a divination spell.

    4.) Going back to the convenience thing, is it more convenient to spend a half hour rolling a character just to maximize use of a single, solitary late game spell, or use a cheap potion of which you'll have plenty of just from looting by the time you can cast it? If clicking a single extra button in order to maximize use of a very situational spell is too much for you, perhaps you shouldn't be playing a mage at all. Just roll all half-orc fighters with 19 strength and attack command all the enemies. Thinking critically about how to overcome encounters by any means necessary is too difficult, apparently.

    5.) Clearly having max of every stat is superior to having ones that are not maxed. However, that's not really what the OP was asking. He was wondering how best to set up a mage and I offered an opinion about what is absolutely vital to getting the most out of your wizard rather than things that are superfluous to how you'll use that character. 18 and eventually 19 strength does help you in melee; however it's pretty reckless to go and whack things with a quarterstaff when you're guy only gets at max 6 HP a level no matter how potentially dangerous he is in melee.

    If you REALLY need strength on your mage, use the level 2 spell "Strength." It gets you 18/01 strength for hours at a time. (I know it says 18/50, but there is literally no difference between 18/01 and 18/50 so I prefer to think of it as the lower end.) It isn't as good as having 19 permanent strength, but it's better than a raw 18. And it also means you can freely beef up your other stats without having to completely min/max.

    6.) I am the admin and main contributor to this site. Go look over it before you criticize me blindly again.
    VidarBrudeAshendenbbgun21
  • GygaxianProseGygaxianProse Member Posts: 201
    Given the playing style you described, pick a specialty mage. Mages are very weak when starting out in AD&D. BG1 will take your character, if he survives : ) , to 5th or 6th level I believe. Which is also the point at which mages in that system really start to come into their own, rocking 3rd level spells. BG2 will take the character considerably farther in levels. It will be difficult keeping him alive in the beginning stages, but such is the price for the power you seek....as for the stats...your mage can be killed by one stray arrow or swordstroke when first starting out...brains and dexterity couldn't hurt...just make the character interesting to you...honestly you don't even need 18 intelligence if starting out in BG1, though it is a help...sleep is the most powerful 1st level spell...you have picked the most difficult class to survive in BG1, but without spoiling anything, it could be argued that it makes the most sense given the game's plot...
    Vidar
  • sandmanCCLsandmanCCL Member Posts: 1,389
    @GygaxianProse: With Tales of the Sword Coast installed, you can reach level 9 as a mage and get up to 5th level spells. I think there were only like 3 different ones you could find, but yeah. You could get pretty powerful.
    Vidar
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