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Ranged weapon questions/points

Apologies in advance for the wall of text ...

I love me some ranged weapons, but some things always have bugged me, so I'm wondering if:
A. Any mod converts launchers to "to hit" bonuses only and the missiles to damage bonuses only (or vice-versa)
1. This would eliminate some of the ridiculous stacking bonuses but still give appropriate bonuses.
Or:
B. Is it possible to make the launcher determine whether X weapon hits opponent needing +X weapon or better to hit?
1. I realize the arrow/bolt/stone actually hits the target. But it seems to make more sense than constantly hunting for the right ammo, or constantly swapping to +2/3 arrows, then to +1, then to normal, depending on opponent ... Guessing this is an engine limitation, minus Gesen, Tansheron, etc.
2. So ... (Best option, IMHO) maybe just eliminate the ammo and make a +2 bow launch +2 arrows with +2 to hit and +2 damage ... like a throwing axe. The "magic" of the bow imbues the ammo, so to speak. Then a specialty ammo only adds the fire ... or dispelling ... or lightning ... or biting effect. Got a +3 bow, good to go ... eliminates the mad dash for Fire Tooth or Gesen or returning weapons as well. Is this possible?
C. It makes no sense that a sling gets strength bonuses but long/shortbows don't. The bow's pull, hence power, is tuned to the strength of the shooter. Anyone here read "The Odyssey" back in the day? Crossbow not so easily, though I suppose you could tune a crossbow with a greater crank strength. Strength should increase range as well ...
D. Slings make no sense as a weapon with allies in close combat or in tight spaces. I realize this can be reflected in PnP, in which all missiles in such cases have a friendly fire chance. At least bows are aimed from the eyes. Of course, a 6-foot longbow or two-handed sword doesn't make much sense in a dungeon hallway, either.
E. A dart makes no sense as a weapon in any instance -- unless you consistently hit your target between the neck and eyeballs. An elite MLB pitcher throws a baseball 95-100 mph (from 20 yards) -- with a time-consuming windup. And if it hits you in the face, it hurts -- and damages -- significantly. If it hits you in a plastic, foam-padded helmet, not so much, unless the strike hits at exactly the wrong angle. If it hits you in the body, in nearly all cases, it's pain that subsides rather quickly. For a PC mostly covered with tin or hardened leather, I seriously doubt a dart would, ah, make a dent. Darts should only hit on a critical hit. Or go away forever.
Z. Yes, I realize I'm trying to apply logic to a fantasy game.

Just my 42 cents ... or $1.56 ... I was told there would be no math.

lolien

Comments

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,468
    edited February 2016
    A: Something like...
    COPY_EXISTING_REGEXP GLOB ~.*\.itm~ ~override~
    PATCH_IF (~%SOURCE_SIZE%~ > ~0x71~) BEGIN
    READ_SHORT 0x1c type
    PATCH_IF (%type% = 15 || %type% = 27 || %type% = 18) BEGIN // bows, xbows, slings
    READ_LONG 0x64 abil_offset
    READ_SHORT 0x68 abil_number
    WHILE (%abil_number% > 0) BEGIN
    SET abil_number = (%abil_number% - 1)
    READ_SHORT (%abil_offset% + (0x38 * %abil_number%)) range
    PATCH_IF (%range% = 4) BEGIN // launcher
    WRITE_SHORT (%abil_offset% + 0x1a + (0x38 * %abil_number%)) 0
    END
    END
    END
    PATCH_IF (%type% = 5 || %type% = 31 || %type% = 14) BEGIN // arrows, bolts, bullets
    READ_LONG 0x64 abil_offset
    READ_SHORT 0x68 abil_number
    WHILE (%abil_number% > 0) BEGIN
    SET abil_number = (%abil_number% - 1)
    READ_SHORT (%abil_offset% + (0x38 * %abil_number%)) range
    PATCH_IF (%range% = 2) BEGIN // ranged
    WRITE_SHORT (%abil_offset% + 0x14 + (0x38 * %abil_number%)) 0
    END
    END
    END
    END
    BUT_ONLY
    B: You could make every bow like Tansheron's and eliminate arrows form all stores... but, really, not worth the effort.

    C: This is addressed in the upcoming version of my mod, Scales of Balance v5, in the Item & Weapon Overhaul. You would probably like it. If you use the code above in A:, run it before installing my mod.

    EDIT - actually A: makes a ton of sense... maybe I'll add that to my mod.

    D : Can't help you there, it's a computer game. :)

    E: Quite right. The same would probably be true of throwing daggers...

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • SirOscisSirOscis Member Posts: 6
    I have taken a look at the mods you've presented thus far (SoB, M&G), and they're interesting. I'll keep my eyes out for updates. The tricky part, as I'm sure you're aware, is balancing accuracy/complications with playability. Kinda why I'm old school and prefer 2nd edition (or even 1st), over 3 or 3.5. That, and I'm old and it's what I grew up with.

  • inethineth Member Posts: 572
    SirOscis said:

    C. It makes no sense that a sling gets strength bonuses but long/shortbows don't.

    SirOscis said:

    E. [...] Darts should only hit on a critical hit.

    Maybe from a realism perspective.

    But from a balance perspective, bows are already overpowered compared to slings and darts, and your proposed changes would exacerbate that imbalance.

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,958
    edited February 2016
    IIRC (too lazy too google now) darts used in warfare were more like small javelins or large arrrows and not like the tiny darts as in BG (which look more like something you would throw in a pub and not on a battlefield). There were also variants where you had a sling or launcher to throw the "dart" longer. In both of these cases I guess the "dart's" impact would be fairly equal to a light javelin or heavy arrow, meaning it would actually do decent damage and possibly penetrate armor (though with alot less range than an arrow ofc). The romans variant, the plumbata (IIRC), was kinda like their pila, but I seem to recall reading it had greater range than the pila. I'm guessing it was lighter but have to read up on it to be sure.

    Edit: Btw, sling getting strenght bonus is indeed ridiculous since it's the speed of the sling and not the weilders strenght that should affect the impact. Can you really spin your sling faster if you're stronger? I doubt t, but haven't done the research to be sure. Throwing knives though should be partly based on strenght, as well as darts, since it's only the weilders strenght (and skill ofc) that determines the range and impact of the thrown object. Strenght and slings could instead mean that with higher strenght you could perhaps sling heavier stones, but that would mean that the bullets would have to a STR req. which is really stretching it compared to the current implementation of weapons in BG and I'm not sure it would be more realistic.

    Edit: I was incorrect above, the plumbata is not a small javelin, it's more like a large leaded arrow which is thrown overhand more like a throwing knife rather than a javelin/throwing spear.

    Post edited by Skatan on
    Aerakar
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    D: Okay, hold up, you gentlepersons appear to have a very wrong idea as to how slings work. You realise they were serious weapons of war, right? With a range that exceeded most bows?

    The sling is a mechanical throwing aid. Essentially it works by extending the length of a human arm, thus allowing stones to be thrown much farther than they could be by hand - the same principle as an atlatl, or indeed, hitting someone with a stick - the longer something is, the more power and leverage. And just as shown in the game animations, it's not "spin it around your head and release" either, check at this video:

    You can see him spinning the sling to set the stone in the cradle, but whenever he's launching, it's rapid, overarm, and accurate. Certainly nothing ridiculous about a practised slinger hitting someone in close quarters than you would see with any other thrown weapon.

    You can also check out the wikipedia page, which goes into more detail on methods of slinging while the weapon was used: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sling_(weapon). One part I'll quote:

    "The coordinated motion is to move every part of the body, legs, waist, shoulders, arms, elbows and wrist in the direction of the target in order to add as much speed as possible to the stone."

    Still sound like it's not suitable for a strength bonus?

    And let's pull it back to C for a second - there's a very real, or at least "rules based" reason why you won't get a strength bonus for most bows, because most bows aren't built to accomodate a titan pulling the string. You overdraw a bow, it breaks. But you are getting a strength bonus for composite bows - that's why they have a damage bonus - they're designed, and sturdy enough, for use by someone with 18 strength's worth of Strength damage bonus. That's how it works, so if a Titan Composite Bow existed, it would give the damage bonus accorded to 25 Strength titans who would be using it, and need 25 strength to wield. If you want to account for better strength bows, then go with Composite Short Bows, Composite Long Bows of 19 Strength, Giant Bows of 22 Strength, and so on.

    E: This is actually already covered by the way AC works.

    Darts deal small amounts of damage and cannot add strength damage - because they're too light to put much power in them but still cause damage when they hurt someone. And in order to deal that damage, they need to beat the target's AC. Someone with no armour may take a dart to the chest quite easily (the tip on a dart can exceed an inch in length, plenty to hurt or kill), while someone in Full Plate needs an expert dart thrower to hurt them through their 0 AC - That might have to be a lucky shot for your average schlub (aka a crit), but for a trained Grand Master Dart's Thrower, hitting even tiny targets to cause severe damage is par for the course.

    JuliusBorisovGrammarsaladinethAerakar
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,468
    edited February 2016
    SirOscis said:

    I have taken a look at the mods you've presented thus far (SoB, M&G), and they're interesting. ... The tricky part, as I'm sure you're aware, is balancing accuracy/complications with playability.

    SoB v5 splits up the weapon overhaul (which includes the "remove STR bonuses from thrown weapons") from one big component into 4 parts. And it will split the proficiency overhaul into 5 parts. Much more modular, and easier for people to choose how to mod their game. It's coming along nicely.
    Skatan said:

    Throwing knives though should be partly based on strenght, as well as darts, since it's only the weilders strenght (and skill ofc) that determines the range and impact of the thrown object.

    Range, yes. But I rather think the sharpness of the blade is what will determine the damage. The strongest guy in the world could hurl a throwing knife at you; it's the cut that causes damage, not the "impact." Thus, there should be no STR damage bonus. If anything, given the presence of armor, STR should give a *thac0* bonus for thrown weapons. (Which is actually possible to implement in the EEs. Hey maybe I'll add that to my mod!)

    Pantalion
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,958
    Pantalion said:


    "The coordinated motion is to move every part of the body, legs, waist, shoulders, arms, elbows and wrist in the direction of the target in order to add as much speed as possible to the stone."

    Still sound like it's not suitable for a strength bonus?

    Insightful post indeed but the movie doesn't show how strenght, if at all, is applied to the damage of the bullet to the target. So no, I still don't see how STR bonus applies.

    You're thoughts about bows are valid and I concur, but I would think the same logic (kinda) applies to slings as well. With higher strenght you could perhaps sling heavier bullets or using a longer sling(?) without the loss of accuracy/range, but how it affects the impact is undetermined. So just as your arguments about more damaging bows having higher STR req and a applied damage bonus, I (so far) think slings could have the same but for bullets instead. Thrown objects though is a different story since it's only the throwers skill and strenght that can determine the energy with which the thrown object impacts the target, though heavier objects could be thrown the same range etc without loss of range/accuracy with a higher STR score.

    This shit is interresting so I tried to google a bit about ancient slings and their usage, but my employer has for some odd reason blocked me from certain sites labeled as "weapons", hehe.. :P So I can't really check out if the actual STR of the sling user affects the impact of the bullet on the target wihtout relying too much on unrestricted sites like wikipedia, which so far I haven't found anything about STR from.

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 4,958
    edited February 2016

    Skatan said:

    Throwing knives though should be partly based on strenght, as well as darts, since it's only the weilders strenght (and skill ofc) that determines the range and impact of the thrown object.

    Range, yes. But I rather think the sharpness of the blade is what will determine the damage. The strongest guy in the world could hurl a throwing knife at you; it's the cut that causes damage, not the "impact." Thus, there should be no STR damage bonus. If anything, given the presence of armor, STR should give a *thac0* bonus for thrown weapons. (Which is actually possible to implement in the EEs. Hey maybe I'll add that to my mod!)
    That's a valid point, and it boils down to the very core rules for AD&D (of which I am no expert), meaning AC vs THAC0 and damage. So to actually score a hit through say a plate mail with a throwing knife you need to first:
    1: aim and hit opponents "hit box" (range and accuracy) --> THAC0
    2: penetrate (the armor) whatever is between the flesh and the knife tip --> THAC0 ??
    3: dig into the flesh and cause a wound --> Damage

    So either STR causes an increase in likelihood for number 2 or increase the impact for number 3. In your case I guess you mean number 2 whereas my initial comment was about number 3, meaning higher impact = deeper wound.

    Edit: Actually after re-reading @pantalion's reply again, I saw this:
    Pantalion said:

    E: This is actually already covered by the way AC works.

    Darts deal small amounts of damage and cannot add strength damage - because they're too light to put much power in them but still cause damage when they hurt someone. And in order to deal that damage, they need to beat the target's AC. Someone with no armour may take a dart to the chest quite easily (the tip on a dart can exceed an inch in length, plenty to hurt or kill), while someone in Full Plate needs an expert dart thrower to hurt them through their 0 AC - That might have to be a lucky shot for your average schlub (aka a crit), but for a trained Grand Master Dart's Thrower, hitting even tiny targets to cause severe damage is par for the course.

    This is my "number 2" option above and it may be the correct way to implement a STR bonus, if any. As said, I'm no expert about the rule set's basics but it do indeed sound reasonable.

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