Make Two Weapon fighting closer to PnP
Edvin
Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 3,244
A quote from the 2E AD&D "Player's Handbook":
"Attacking with Two Weapons; A tricky fighting style available only to warriors and rogues is that of fighting with two weapons simultaneously. The character chooses not to use a shield in favor of another weapon, granting him a greater number of attacks, with a penalty to his attack rolls (rangers are exempt from the attack roll penalty)."
A quote from the 2E AD&D "Combat and Tactics" supplement:
"Two Weapon; Not to be confused with the two-handed weapon style,two weapon style uses a weapon in each of the character's hands. The advantage of this is clear: the character either has more attack power or can use the secondary weapon defensively to block incoming blows. Another benefit lies in the fact that even if the character loses a weapon, he's still armed. The character can use any one-handed weapon in his primary hand, but his secondary weapon must be a size smaller than his primary weapon. Knives and daggers can always be used, regardless of the primary weapon's size. The character suffers a -2 penalty to attacks with the primary weapon, and a -4 to attacks with the secondary weapon. This penalty is offset by the character's reaction adjustment for high Dexterity. Important Note: While the character receives his normal number of attacks for class, level, and specialization with his primary weapon, he only receives one additional attack with his secondary weapon. Warriors and Rogues know two weapon fighting style."
A quote from the 2E AD&D "Complete Fighter's Handbook" supplement:
"Only Warriors and Rogues can buy the Two-Weapon Style Specialization."
So, if i understand properly, Thieves should be able have ( minimal ) two points in Two-Weapon Style Specialization.
( Thief fighting with two daggers is absolutely normal thing )
"Attacking with Two Weapons; A tricky fighting style available only to warriors and rogues is that of fighting with two weapons simultaneously. The character chooses not to use a shield in favor of another weapon, granting him a greater number of attacks, with a penalty to his attack rolls (rangers are exempt from the attack roll penalty)."
A quote from the 2E AD&D "Combat and Tactics" supplement:
"Two Weapon; Not to be confused with the two-handed weapon style,two weapon style uses a weapon in each of the character's hands. The advantage of this is clear: the character either has more attack power or can use the secondary weapon defensively to block incoming blows. Another benefit lies in the fact that even if the character loses a weapon, he's still armed. The character can use any one-handed weapon in his primary hand, but his secondary weapon must be a size smaller than his primary weapon. Knives and daggers can always be used, regardless of the primary weapon's size. The character suffers a -2 penalty to attacks with the primary weapon, and a -4 to attacks with the secondary weapon. This penalty is offset by the character's reaction adjustment for high Dexterity. Important Note: While the character receives his normal number of attacks for class, level, and specialization with his primary weapon, he only receives one additional attack with his secondary weapon. Warriors and Rogues know two weapon fighting style."
A quote from the 2E AD&D "Complete Fighter's Handbook" supplement:
"Only Warriors and Rogues can buy the Two-Weapon Style Specialization."
So, if i understand properly, Thieves should be able have ( minimal ) two points in Two-Weapon Style Specialization.
( Thief fighting with two daggers is absolutely normal thing )
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Comments
It is according 2E AD&D and it is absolutely reasonable thing...
I think it should be fix in BG:EE.
Thieves are not OP fighters, so they can have two points in Two-Weapon Style Specialization.
For a full PnP AD&D implementation, you should look to mods like Rogue Rebalancing or aTWEAKS. I can't remember is this feature is already part of the mods, but @Wisp can probably answer that when he has time.
BG does not follow PnP rules word for word. Many rules are considered "House Rules" where the original developers made changes because this is a video game.
As for your suggestion, are thiefs not able to put 2 points into two weapon fighting style? I'm more concerned with the game not following the rule "... but his secondary weapon must be a size smaller than his primary weapon." because dual wielding Bastard Swords doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me (without Monkey Grip that is *wink*)
I agree, however, that for vanilla BG:EE two weapon fighting should remain as is. Everyone's used to it as it is, just as they are used to Ranger/Clerics having access to all Druid spells since level 1: take it away from them, and they'll get seriously ticked off.
Ok and what about this new scrip for Thieves:
If they will be holding dagger as second weapon, they do´t get any THACO penalty.
It´s make them much closer to their true skills and is it hardly OP ability.
I wouldn't argue that adding the reaction modifier to duel-wield would have a negative side affect on the community since anyone that's a duel-wielding melee character wouldn't have low dex to even experience negative reaction modifiers. If anything, this makes duel-wielding more accessible.
ALL classes can specialize in 1 out of two available combat styles (only applies to styles though, they're still limited to proficiency in actual weapons, unless otherwise stated), except warriors who can be proficient and specialize in all of them.
Rogues get single weapon and two weapon styles to choose from (and cannot put points in two-handed or sword and shield ever)
Wizards get single weapon and two-handed style to choose from (no sword/shield or two-weapon).
Priests get two-handed style and sword and shield (no single weapon or two-weapon).
(If style access were properly implemented the net change would be....priests would lose 2 styles they never take anyway, wizards would gain access to 2 styles (currently none in game), rogues would lose 2 styles, of which only the loss of two-handed style would be felt (and would solve that other issue about quarterstaves being the best BS weapons...they'd still have the highest damage BSs, but you'd be 2x as likely to crit using a 1-handed, single weapon). (though I'm also in favor of removing the crit bonus from those 2 styles anyway, as it doesn't exist in PnP).
@AndreaColombo
Not the same issue at all. R/C is heavily supported because it's pure cheese and changing it is a HUGE (and long awaited) nerf, and people DESPISE having their ill-gotten gains taken from them.
Bringing Two-weapon style down to 2 points is a buff no matter how you look at it (1 point less needed for the same benefit), and the 2nd point in TWF unlocks the ability for same-size dual-wielding, if they managed to properly implement smaller off-hand requirements for proficiency (though I see it as a minor issue since any character wanting to dual-wield will max TWF anyway (the first point in TWF is mediocre while the 2nd is the biggest thac0 gain. which is really how all weapon skills should be...put the increased crit (that shouldn't exist) for single/two handed style in the 2nd point, to actually give a reason to get the 2nd point...at the moment the 2nd point of either style is a huge waste). The Ranger is the only class getting a free pass, since while they never suffer a Dual-wielding penalty for normal dual-wielding, they still have to spend 2 points to unlock same size weapons). Removing it from priest/druids is a joke, because they can only ever place a single point in it any way, and without access to dual-speed weapons, they can't get the volume of attacks needed to off-set the huge penalty having just *. Buffing Blades to automatic ** is just PnP accurate. And allowing rogues to specialize in it is as well.
Or just change how the bonuses are applied. Leave 3 ranks, but change it so Rangers only get access to the 3rd rank, and do so automatically (changes the *** penalty to 0/0, as proper for rangers, who never suffer a penalty when dual-wielding). While ** is 0/-2 as per PnP, and fighters and rogues can place up to 2 points. PnP accurate, and everyone benefits. The best choice all a round.
Or they can stop being stupid and remove all that OP garbage that classes shouldn't have, if they going to leave out LEGITIMATE mechanics that other classes are supposed to have with NO COMPENSATION.
Or just properly implement the full benefits from the dexterity stat. At 18+ dex and * two weapon, you have no penalty when dual-wielding.
they just left fighting styles half finished, probably for simplicity's sake and/or lack of time without really considering how it will devastate the rogue classes.
sorry for necro