On choosing a main character
odessa333
Member Posts: 59
Hey all!
I tried asking this on my 'team building' topic, but didn't get any responses to it.... (so sad!) so I figured I'd try making another topic, see if that helps any. As the topic says, I am trying to come up with ideas for my main char, but having issues. I've only played BG1, and I'm not familiar with a lot of the new BG2 stuff. That said, I don't know if I'm going to play BG2 yet, as it kind of of worries me lol. I won't discuss that here, as i already made that topic. Point is, I'm trying to make a good, neutral, and evil aligned teams, and need three mc's.
Good MC: My team will likely be Imoen, Ajantic, Mincs, Dynaheir, and TBA. I am going to play a healer type. Only I can't decide if I should be a pure dwarf cleric, a dual classed human fighter/cleric, or a elven ranger/cleric lol. I think the ranger cleric is only useful in BG2 where the higher level spell kick in, and don't know if it will do more harm then good in BG1. I've heard the fight/cleric is rated highly, but not so sure why. I like the idea of a dwarf cleric as getting a 20 con would mean my healer doesn't need healing for the most part. Thoughts?
Neutral MC: Team will likely be Jaheira, Xan, Branwen, Safana, and TBA. I'm thinking a fighter here. I was thinking a half orc pure fighter, but here lots of good about the kensai kit. I just can't imagine how losing missile weapons, armor, and bracers can still be a useful class. Ideas?
Evil MC: Most room for change in this party, but I'm thinking Edwin, Vicona, and Shar-Teel as my core, rest still open. I'm thinking a thief type for this party. I was thinking a halfing pure thief to easily max out my thief skills, but seems everyone suggests being a human to dual class later. For a pure thief, I keep going back and forth on assassin and swashbuckler, as both sound interesting. Suggestions?
Any help is appreciated!
I tried asking this on my 'team building' topic, but didn't get any responses to it.... (so sad!) so I figured I'd try making another topic, see if that helps any. As the topic says, I am trying to come up with ideas for my main char, but having issues. I've only played BG1, and I'm not familiar with a lot of the new BG2 stuff. That said, I don't know if I'm going to play BG2 yet, as it kind of of worries me lol. I won't discuss that here, as i already made that topic. Point is, I'm trying to make a good, neutral, and evil aligned teams, and need three mc's.
Good MC: My team will likely be Imoen, Ajantic, Mincs, Dynaheir, and TBA. I am going to play a healer type. Only I can't decide if I should be a pure dwarf cleric, a dual classed human fighter/cleric, or a elven ranger/cleric lol. I think the ranger cleric is only useful in BG2 where the higher level spell kick in, and don't know if it will do more harm then good in BG1. I've heard the fight/cleric is rated highly, but not so sure why. I like the idea of a dwarf cleric as getting a 20 con would mean my healer doesn't need healing for the most part. Thoughts?
Neutral MC: Team will likely be Jaheira, Xan, Branwen, Safana, and TBA. I'm thinking a fighter here. I was thinking a half orc pure fighter, but here lots of good about the kensai kit. I just can't imagine how losing missile weapons, armor, and bracers can still be a useful class. Ideas?
Evil MC: Most room for change in this party, but I'm thinking Edwin, Vicona, and Shar-Teel as my core, rest still open. I'm thinking a thief type for this party. I was thinking a halfing pure thief to easily max out my thief skills, but seems everyone suggests being a human to dual class later. For a pure thief, I keep going back and forth on assassin and swashbuckler, as both sound interesting. Suggestions?
Any help is appreciated!
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Comments
I'm not a fan of dual classing at all. I just don't care for it, feels very restrictive and makes me uncertain of when the optimal time to do it is. Plus, there are three NPCs in BG2 that are dual classed, and two of them (Imoen and Nalia) are terrible at the classes they started with (Thief).
I haven't played a Ranger/Cleric, so I can't comment on that. Doesn't really interest me much, though.
As for your 6th party member, dunno if you're looking for recommendations, but I'd recommend Coran. Would be a good fit. He's a Fighter/Thief, good with a bow, and more interesting than Kivan, imo.
Neutral MC: Kensai is super OP. Absolutely ridiculous amounts of damage coming outta that kit. Personally though, I don't like it. I mean, Baldur's Gate is a series you can succeed in with just about anything. Even a pure Bard could solo the game. Might be rough in places, but it's doable. So really, I pick characters for style. I'd much rather play a Human Fighter dual wielding longswords, than a Human Kensai doing the same. Wearing armor looks cool, man! Nobody wants to run around naked. It's creepy.
For the 6th party member there, I'd recommend Garrick. All teams could use some moral support/dead weight!!
Evil MC: Pure Human Assassin. Don't dual class. Pure Assassin all the way to endgame. When you're knee-deep in Shadows of Amn, wearing the flesh of another person, stabbing people with a Short Sword of Mask +4, using Boots of Speed to run into a room full of Vampires and backstab one for x7 damage, immediately chunking them, and then running out of the room as quick as you can blink, rounding the corner and re-stealthing, then diving back into the room to hamrail another frightened Vampire... you'll thank me. Pure Assassin is amazing. And again, I don't like dual classes, so that's part of why I'm recommending this. It's not at all that I think dual classing is weak. I'm just not a fan.
For the other two party members... Tiax and Faldorn. Faldorn isn't actually evil, but she's a pretty exceptionally unpleasant person, so she'll fit right in.
With that said: my first (and favorite) character was Ulfgar Torunn, Dwarf Fighter/Cleric. F/Cs make excellent tanks and equally skilled healers. The bonus from constitution can grant regeneration, large save bonuses (+5) and hitpoints aplenty. Furthermore, it is very friendly to new players without sacrificing the power that min/maxers crave. In short, I recommend it.
I hope this helps.
Evil:
BG1: PC Human Swashbuckler, Xzar, Montaron, Dorn, Edwin, Viconia
BG2: PC Human Swashbuckler, Korgan, Dorn, Edwin, Viconia, Sarevok
Good:
If both Neera and Rasaad are good aligned:
BG1: PC Dwarven Fighter/Cleric, Imoen, Rasaad, Neera, Yeslick, Coran
BG2: PC Dwarven Fighter/Cleric, Imoen, Rasaad, Neera, Anomen, Sarevok
If only Neera good aligned:
BG1: PC Dwarven Berserker, Imoen, Neera, Ajantis, Yeslick, Coran
BG2: PC Dwarven Berserker, Imoen, Neera, Anomen, Keldorn, Sarevok
If only Rasaad good aligned:
BG1: PC Human Sorc, Imoen, Rasaad, Ajantis, Yeslick, Coran
BG2: PC Human Sorc, Imoen, Rasaad, Anomen, Keldorn, Sarevok
The regeneration provided by the 20 contitution isn't useful in-battle, because it's so slow. It's useful when resting or moving between areas, and definitely does reduce the need of healing spells.
I don't think it's ever worth being a pure class anything in BG1, except pure Fighter, and also Paladin and Bard just because they don't have the option to multi or dualclass.
I think you should cut your choices down to Dwarven Fighter/Cleric multiclass versus Human Fighter/Cleric dualclass. The multiclass will be the better Fighter but worse Cleric, and the duaclass will be the other way around. The mutliclass wins in convenience, since you won't have to adjust to the different dualclass stages. I personally prefer the multiclass. Infact, in BG1 the only time I choose dualclass over multiclass is if I'm making a Mage, because a mutliclass Mage can't reach level 8 and get level 5 spells.
* I just noticed you may be using Tutu or BGT, after reading the Neutral party paragraph. I know much less about those mods or even BG2. With my limited knowledge though I'd suggest Dwarf F/C multiclass or Human Berserker/Cleric dualclass. If you were playing vanilla BG1 without kits, I'd say go with a pure Fighter. Halfling is the most defensive race with the top AC, HP and saves. Elf is the most offensive race with its weapon bonuses. Dwarf and Gnome lie in the middle. Human and Half-elf aren't a good choice.
Considering BG2 rules though, I don't think Kensai is a good choice. I think Kensai is best for dualclassing into Mage or Thief. In BG1, I think it'd be particularly weak as a pure class, because AC is very important. I think I'd go with a Berserker.
In BG1 rules, again I wouldn't suggest pure Thief. I think Halfling F/T or Elf F/T are best options. The Halfling multiclass is best option if you want Thievery>Archery, and the Elf multiclass is the best if you want Archery>Thievery. I don't think dualclass is worth it.
In BG2 rules, I'm really not sure. Kensai/Thief is a popular choice, but Thief kits or multiclass options seem good too.
** I made another late realization.. are you going to import into BG2? If so, I'd change my mind in the Good party to Ranger/Cleric since they're better in BG2. I still think a pure Berserker would be best in the Neutral party. Still not sure about what the best thief option is.
Good: I've always loved pure clerics. They don't need to dual class to be capable in the front line; they can wear heavy armor and cast buffs and carry shields and if you have two other warrior-type people in your party that should be plenty good enough on it's own without adding fighter to the mix! Especially if they are a high con dwarf. Not multiclassing, of course, means you get the better spells sooner, which I consider more useful than having a few levels of fighter. Of course, I love pure clerics so much that I've never actually tried multiclassing them, so, I guess this is a biased opinion!
Neutral: I would suggest to try the Kensai. It works well in BG2, and I don't know if it works as well at lower levels in BG but there's only one way to find out!
Evil: I've never really played around with the Thief kits, but they do look fun, don't they? I'm tempted by an Assassin myself. Maxing out thief skills shouldn't be a major concern, there's always Knock for pesky chests if you come across one you can't open, but if you're sure you won't be dual-classing then no reason not to take a halfling just to make sure!
Ultimately, I'd say just pick what seems fun! I don't think you can really make a 'wrong' choice. With five other supporting characters, it doesn't really matter if you don't create an optimum PC, the game will still be perfectly playable, beatable and enjoyable ;D
The main issue with a pure cleric is that you will only have 1 attack per round generally, which is a bore imo.
It's not a major difference at first, since fighters only have 1.5 attacks at level 1, but at level 7, the fighter has 2 attacks, 2.5 attacks at 13, and 3 attacks at 19 I believe, or thereabouts.
Even at level 40, a cleric will always have one attack.
There's dual wield, but the pure cleric can't get *** I believe, so will never really benefit from the additional attacks.
Dual class was better in BG1, because mastery added 2 thaco, which was a significant improvement since it could be obtained at level 3. Even dual classing a level 3 fighter was fine in BG 1, because it was a large combat improvement over the pure classes at low experience, you could get your fighter class back very fast, and you could still easily reach the max level in the second class, so there is no real penalty to doing it. (for example, with just 4000 xp for fighter and 5000 xp for thief, i.e. 9000 xp total, you effectively sacrifice a single level of thief to gain 3 ab the pure thief will not have at 10000 xp, and gain an extra half attack to boot, not to mention you will still reach max level thief within the level cap, and so you will basically be a pure thief with mastery, i.e. 3 to thaco and 3 to damage. Since level 8 thief was max level, we're comparing 17 thaco to 14 thaco, not to mention fighter strength, potentially another 2 to 3 thaco. For the cleric you'd get similar advantages. For a mage it's a massive difference.).
After all of this though, I'd say the 20 Constitution is pretty appealing. Free heals.
Conclusions: Multiclass Fighter/Cleric is a good healer and a killing machine. Dual class Fighter/Cleric is trickier because it depends on what you want to do, since if you dual early, you basically have an enhanced cleric with no loss to the cleric, but if you dual late, you're effectively making a multiclass fighter/cleric and just trying to get more HP, while in the process giving yourself the huge headache of playing with a fighter for a third of the game, a cleric the third of the game, and a fighter/cleric for the final third of the game, instead of playing a fighter/cleric or a cleric the whole way through.
I'm fairly sure that all parties need a mage in them at higher levels to deal with other buffed mages, so it also makes sense to make that role the player-character and allow more freedom in choosing NPCs. A mage is also potentially more in keeping with the teachings protagonist's guardian (Gorion).
Sadly, being a mage at low levels is very hard, and it's easy to see why so any people dual from a fighter around level 8 or 9. I've done it myself. In the long run, a few levels in fighter doesn't mean any less levels in mage, but does allow better options for choosing weapon proficiencies and allows the character to wear a helmet (which is a huge help).
I'm thinking about a mage/thief multiclass for my next play (even more options! Traps and all sorts of tricks!).
Question: Is there ever a reason to choose a half-elf over an elf as a race? As far as I can see, the +1 bonus to bows and longswords is really useful, at essentally only a max con of 17.
L.
That said, you don't need a Mage in a party. If other Mages have given you trouble in the past, consider rolling an Inquisitor. Casting Dispel Magic at twice your level will solve all your Mage woes in the blink of an eye.
If you're doing a pure cleric, I recommend rolling a Halfling. In a class where constitution bonuses are limited, halflings are actually tankier than dwarves. You'll be limited to 17 max strength at creation but that doesn't matter much because of the level 2 divine spell, Draw Upon Holy Might.
If you're going dwarf, go fighter/cleric multi-class. It's the best way to go. Focus on hammers. You'll wreck stuff and be borderline unkillable. The buffs you can cast on yourself plus your fighting prowess will make you a god among men, especially if you manage a godly roll to max strength, dex, constitution and wisdom.
I'm not going to comment about NPCs because I feel like half the fun is figuring out who you like and who you don't. Kensai are battering rams. They obliterate whatever they get their hands on but cannot sustain focused aggression from enemies. You NEED a druid or mage to back them up with armor raising spells to maintain a semblance of armor class early on (barkskin from druids is excellent, and mages eventually get Ghost and Spirit Armor to buff allies.)
Half-Orcs are "deceptively good." Not to say they are bad, because you can't argue with 19 strength and constitution out of the gate. But the thing is, dwarves outclass them toward the end of the game. You'll have the opportunity to boost every stat by 1 through tomes and manuals you find in the game (wisdom can increase by 3 in fact). There is no appreciable difference between 19 and 20 strength, 18 and 19 dexterity for guys who aren't relying on ranged thac0, and both end up with the same constitution. The key difference is half-orcs gain no additional benefits for being a half orc but dwarves have a +5 bonus to saves vs. death, spells and wands. The Half-Orc will be better out the gate but the dwarf will end up tankier.
Only thing I'm going to point out is Jaheira comes with Khalid. Without abusing game mechanics, you can't have one without the other. Khalid is already a pure fighter and a pretty good one at that, but he'd still fit into your party. You can turn him into a really capable archer if you feel like you don't need another front-line fighter.
I recommend going Berzerker if you plan on being a straight fighter. Their rage makes them immune to most of the game's instant-death scenarios and you can obviously tank much better than a Kensai. I would stay away from assassin if you're not going to jump your guy into BG2. They are the best pure thief kit in my opinion, but that's because their strengths start to shine later on in the saga. You won't ever reach the ungodly backstab numbers they are capable of in BG1, so the benefits to going the class are just +1hit/damage and the poison ability, at the cost of effective thieving skills.
Swashbucklers are good, but losing out on backstabs means they are basically fighters in lighter armor who happen to be able to open locks and disarm traps. For BG1, it defeats the purpose of rolling a pure thief. That's just my opinion, though.
I'd say roll Bounty Hunter through BG1. Mm traps. Lots of upsides, very minor downside. Still plays like a regular thief, and unlike Assassins, you'll gain a lot of fun bonuses throughout instead of just at the highest levels.
If you want to dual-class, there's a lot of weird, crazy options. First, decide if you want your thieving to be front-end or back-end. All the important things thieves bring to a party, you'll be able to do around level 6 or 7, so you can then drop it to focus on magic. If you want to be uberthief, it might be worth your time to front-load it with some fighter levels (no more than 7 for BG1) so you'll be more dangerous swinging your sword.
@odessa333 A pure dwarf cleric with a 20 Con would get the regeneration bonus out of it but have 4 stat points spent just for that, since only fighter-types get Hp bonuses past 16 Con. A dwarven F/C would be nice as combo and while won't get access to that many higher level clerical spells it shouldn't really be a problem.
Kensai at high level is very powerful but many people use it for dual-classing into mage or thief once they reach their fighting peak. A mage can't use armor anyway and properly buffed a kensai/mage can be devastating in melee, and once thieves get their epic Use any item ability you basically cancel the kit restrictions while keeping its advantages. You'd need to play BG2 to benefit from these builds though.
Both assassins and swashbucklers are cool and powerful, but have different play-styles, pick the one you like best. For assassin go halfling IMO but I'd use an elf for swashbuckler due to racial weapon bonuses.
One thing to keep in mind while choosing your PC's race is the romances your char will have access to, if this aspect of the game matters to you. This is more significant for BG2 but the BGEE NPCs will start building a romance before you go to Amn so it impacts on the first game as well.
Building on your statements above, what would you think of a dwarven cleric/thief?
L.
1) A good number of decent NPCs to recruit means your main character doesn't have to specialize. Bards are a Jack of All Trades, Master of None sort of character. Some have had great success soloing the game using only a bard, so I've heard.
2) Bards have access to a good amount of magic and aren't as squishy as a full mage. That means you can either hang back and use magic or buff yourself and be a capable combatant.
3) Bards can Pick Pockets, which doesn't seem like much, but frees up all of your party rogue's skill points for more important thievery like opening locks and detecting traps.
4) Once a bard gets rolling his lore skill means you don't have to stop and memorize Identify all the time.
5) Bards can use a variety of weapons so you can really pick how you want to use them.
6) If nothing else will help, bards can always bust out the Music and help that way.
7) Bards have a few kits available if you want them to lean one way or another, to specialize a bit more.
- A bard can wear armour, but can't cast spells while wearing it.
- A bard can pick pockets, but not while wearing armour either.
- A bard can sing a song, but not while fighting or casting a spell.
The result is that for every combat, the bard has to choose to either be a fighter, or a mage, or a singer. He can't be all of them. Plus, the bard sone is fairly unimpressive. If it was anything like the Neverwinter Nights bard song, tht would go a long way towards improving it.
One other challenge is equipment. I'm sure you'll agree that (with the possible exception of the monk) a character's armour and weapons makes up more than half of their combat skills. A bard can potentially make use of just about any item in the game. Now, I don't mean "use any item"; I mean that any magic item that you find, be it a weapon, a mage ring, a thief belt or enchanted armour, is of some use to a bard. That might sound like a good thing, but it means that your character improvements are spread out over all three classes. Even worse, you may find half your inventory slots filled with items that you manually have to swap in and out to get the right effects at the right time. That kind of micromanagement isn't appealing to me.
It's a shame really, because I personally identify with the bard idea of being "jack of all trades, master of none" (although I can't sing or play an instrument to save my life). Unfortunately bard characters tend to end up as "barely average at everything, master of nothing".
L.
A bard doesn't need to wear armor once they hit level 2. Then they learn the level 1 mage spell armor and they're pretty much set. That said, There WILL be Elven Chainmail this time in BG1 according to @TrentOster and @PhillipDaigle which will also allow your bard to cast spells and pick pocket while eventually freeing up that level 1 spell slot.
Now for my opinions:
Good: Dwarven Fighter/Cleric with Warhammers and Slings to start with. He makes an effective combat healer in early bg1 and by the end of bg2 he IS your tank. Period
Neutral: I've always been partial to Kensai and Elven Kensai with longswords is just a good time (See: Below in evil for more). That said a Half-Orc Berserker could be fun too and I've always wanted to run a dwarven wizard slayer myself
Evil: I want to do a halfling assassin myself but what I remember is that I'm going halfling to make up for the penalty to thieving abilities every level up. If you make an Elven Assassin, while your thieving abilities are slightly worse, you have +1 thaco on your halfling if you use longswords. Like the Kensai this is most helpful for your character at early levels, but its not something to be underestimated. It means there is a greater likelihood of your backstabs going off when you want them too
The only thing I'd suggest is possibly doing your "good" playthrough last. Especially if you do a fighter/cleric. You can use the tweak mod to allow your dwarven fighter/cleric to still get Grand Mastery in their weapons, which otherwise they are unable to do (but a dual class can). This personally has bothered me and I thought I'd let you know there are ways to 'fix' it.
More than anything though, Good Luck, Have Fun
I think that relying on elven chainmail is a crutch. It says, "you can only really play a bard properly if you have this item".
L.
The armor spell (equivalent to scale mail, which is 1 ac better than chain mail which is the highest the bard can naturally wear) lasts for 9 hours in Baldur's Gate. That's lasts for more than 1 fight per day. So yes I think reserving that slot until elven chain appears is well worth it. It's better than the best armor you can wear already.
Oh and you can use your thieving abilities while wearing it which you can't with Chainmail.
And you'll also be getting your second spell when your mage is only just hitting level 2. Spells that increase their damage based on level (Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb, Melf's Acid Arrow, Flame Arrow, Agnazzar's Scorcher, Skull Trap, Fireball, etc) provide more damage when cast by a bard than by a mage until Throne of Bhaal.
It also gives you the option of making up (especially in BG1) for your primary mages weakness. If you're running your good party then Dynaheir can't cast Enchantment spells, and spells like sleep are amazing in BG1. If you're using Xan then you can't use all the nukes that I mentioned above and you also can't use web (amazing in BG1 and BG2).
Finally if you become a blade you can access to offensive spin (possibly the best offensive special ability in game) and defensive spin (which can make you have the lowest possible ac in game).
L.
Good Cleric of Lathander (fits with the BG1 "good" team, and even more with the BG2 one).
Neutral Mage - Conjurer (same story).
Evil Thief - Swashbuckler (ditto).
That being said, it reallly depends on whether the new characters (Rasaad and Neera) are good or neutral and on what new characters will there be in BG2:EE (gee, I wish they told us now).
On the fighter kit... my first suggestion is "go with whatever you like most". I played a half-orc generic fighter, back in the days, and it was a blast. And he was powerful enough to kick the ToB boss' *** with 3 party members down. So, basically, don't listen to the obsessive minmaxing, powerplaying mob.
However, if you WANT to be one of those... if you don't care having exactly the same character that 20982734982734 other people have... then don't worry about him being weak.
Just get a Kensai, and later on make him a Kensai / Mage. Cheese galore.
Sigh, I wish they were including the Death Knight kit from BG Tactics
Fighter/thief ultimately gets bigger backstabbing multiplier, and Lots of thief skills.
Imo fighter thief is always better. Monty is a beast.
If we're talking saga as a whole, Bards would get thief HLA. Obviously the guy who dual-classed to mage is going to end up the better straight caster. The bard will be way more versatile, though.
Also, look at bard kits. Skald is so good early game. Your whole party and anything you summon will be monsters. Blade is actually the most powerful class at the end of the game, believe it or not. Offensive Spin is ridiculous. OH WAIT, they are also the best tanks in the game. Defensive spin? Equally as ridiculous.
Yeah, a regular bard is going to taper off quickly compared to a fighter/mage or thief/mage, but the kits are all effing fantastic.
@Kabbalah: Stalkers are rangers with a few 3rd level mage spells they can buff themselves with, and they have the ability to backstab.
Fighter/Thieves end up more poweful usually, but take a lot longer to get out the gate and never get the self-buffing power a straight ranger would, let alone a Stalker. I wouldn't really compare the two because the playstyle is pretty different.
Ok, I took people's feedback in, did some more research, etc. I think my biggest problem is that I am focusing on BG1, while trying to keep the option of going to BG2 if i change my mind. I just can't decide if should take the chance on BG2, and that's hurting my decisions here, too. Still, i'm doing my best with what I have
For my Good team, the dwarf fighter/cleric seems to be the way to go. For BG1, the pure cleric gets to level 8, and a fighter/cleric gets 7/8, so I would lose no levels of cleric and gain all the benefits of 7 levels of fighter. (I think what, more HP and weapon specialization?). If I do go to BG2, I'd get fewer 7th level spells at the end of the game, but more attacks throughout the game. I can live with that. (If I'm forgetting something, do tell me!)
For my Neutral team, the more I look into it, the more I like the Berserker kit for the fighter. I don't give up missile weapons entirely, and being a Half Orc berseker just sounds cool lol. I did end up debating more multi class options seeing as how fighters don't lose much from multi classing in BG1 (a whole one level) but i just didn't see any option as fun as the pure berserker.
For the evil team, I decided against the swashbuckler, as really, you're playing a fighter that point, and i intend to play as a thief. I'm left debating the assassin or a pure thief. I don't intend to dual class or anything, deciding on a halfing. Still, I wonder how big a hit the -10 thief points will be to an assassin character. I want to pick pocket and open locks, etc, so I think the pure thief is the way to go for me. I kind of wish there was a way to start out as pure thief, and then become an assassin later on; maybe a mod would do that, I don't know.
Anyway, I think i have my mind made up at last... thanks to all who put up with my wavering indecision the last week or so lol. i really appreciate it.
Assassin's only get 15 thief points per level. Pure thieves get 25. So that difference that the halfling gives you compared to anything else is fairly significant due to how gimped your thief progression is. That said I would suggest not putting any points into hide and move silently even as an assassin because you can get Boots of Stealth and Shadow Armor. Not to mention higher pick locks = more "acquired" goods = more gold = faster Shadow Armor