Sorry to revive this, but the thoughts....they keeps bugging me, and I wanted to ask opinions.
I'm still set on the good fighter/cleric. For my neutral fighter, i keep coming back to the idea of a fighter/thief. Can someone help me do a pro/con of these choices?
I would think the con is the slower exp growth, and in BG1, the one less level of fighter. But getting 8 levels of thief could help my thief out quite a bit there. Again, I've never done BG2, so i'm not so sure how the pro/cons carry over to there. Could one pick a kit while being a multi-class?
For the evil thief, How would an elf mage/thief hold up against a pure halfling thief? Thought?
If team choice matters, I'm thinking:
Good: Self as Fighter/Cleric, Imoen, Ajantis, Mincs, Dynaheir, Coran/Rasheed.
Neutral: Self as Fighter (or fighter thief, above), Xan, Safana, Jaheira, Branwen, Neera (If Neutral), Garrick/Qualye if not.
Evil: Self as Thief (or mage/thief, above), Shar-Teel, Vicona, Edwin...and still TBA lol. I keep debating these selections, but I'm thinking something like Norn and Tiax.
Assuming Imoen is dueled to a mage, going with Fighter/thief for the neutral team and mage/thief for the evil gives every team at least two people with healing skills, mage skills, thief skills, and fighter skills. I think this could work really well....in theory. Any thoughts to how it works in practice?
Fighter/thief is an awesome multi-class - good fighter, awesome backstabber, plus all the thief abilities - whats not to like? IIRC kits are not available for multi-class but they may be for dual class but I can't recall the specifics -
multi-class works very well with no kits and it doesn't require the special planning and oddness the dual class involves like:
what level to dual class at -
once you dual class losing your first class abilities until your second class reaches a higher level (or same level maybe?) than first class
this leaves you as somewhat of a wimp dependent on the rest of the party to hold you up in the meantime or if you want to speed up the process then breaking immersion by going off to find someplace to grind out some levels
This also means depending on how many levels you go with the first class that it may well be near the last third of the game before you actually get all the benefits of both classes - while a multiclass has them for the entire game with only a somewhat slower progression than the single classes do.
That's the problem with dual classing at a level too high. I don't care if the famous kensai 13/mage x becomes the ultimate fighter in TOB. It takes too long to recover your kensai abilities. I want to have fun with the game and I don't really think it's fun to have to protect what effectively becomes a low level character in the middle of a high level campaign until he can survive on his own and become an uber killer.
The few times I cared to dual a character I never did it above level 9.
I also don't have any problems with multiclasses. I always had fun playing them. And although they progress slowly, they always have all their abilities available.
One way the dual class can work without much trouble is if you are playing both BG1 & 2 - choose ranger for instance as your first class and play all the way through BG1 then dual to cleric shortly after arriving in BG2 -(level 9 perhaps rather than 13) you level up quite quickly with SOAs massive exp rewards especially if you keep the party small at first and have enough hps to survive as a low level cleric even if you can't contribute as much and once you get your ranger skills back (not long after getting out of the first dungeon) you are almost godlike for the remainder of the game.
Good to know, but a tad off topic. To fix that, how do the choices of fighter/thief vs pure fighter, and thief/mage vs. pure thief work out?
For example...On paper, the fighter/thief gets a nice backstab, and the the thief/mage can now use invisibility and knock to enhance thief skills. Do these warrant the multi class option?
It really depends, in my opinion, on your personal tastes. If you do not get desperate because a multiclass character takes longer to level up, then both multiclasses are very good.
As a figther/thief you get weapon specialization, higher hit points and if not using your thief abilities, access to heavy armor since the begining of the game. And when you reach epic levels access to both thief and fighter HLAs. Some very lethal combinations there.
As a mage thief, you get access to the self-boosting and self-protection spells along with your thieving abilities and weapon proficiencies. Just imagine the following combination in play: improved invisibility + haste + stone skin + backstab. The combination of mage and thief HLAs are very interesting also.
I have always favored multiclasses instead of duals, I think they're more fun to play. You may be interested in the discussion going on in the general area about cleric/thief multiclass, that is seriously making me consider one for my first run of BG EE.
The other thing to consider when comparing pure class to multi-class is that there is always going to be a trade off involved - the multi-class is going to give you more options but it's going to make you wait much longer for them and this may effect the manner in which you need to play the game in order to have the skills/spells you want/need when you reach certain parts of the game.
That said if you have no problem with leaving the main storyline and going off to explore the world in order to grab some additional levels before reaching some of the main story goals - there is plenty of experience out there to do so and I for one enjoy that sort of journey - you can also enhance experience gain by dropping off several of your companions for a while and adventure with a smaller group or solo.
One drawback to this is those companions you drop off will not gain any experience during that time so another option is to avoid picking them up until you get more levels (then they will come into the party at a higher level closer to your current level ) - choices, choices choices... ;-)
If on the other hand you tend to be an impatient gamer who wants to push on through the main plot and is not that interested in completing every little side quest or exploring every map then you would be a better candidate for a single class (IMO).
The great thing about being multiclassed, rather than dual classed is you're still gaining all the benefits from the fighter class, such as thac0 and being able to specialise. Combine that with the thief HLA Assassination and they're pretty deadly. I'd also implore you to put points into detect illusion and set snares, which are massively underrated (well, maybe not set snares).
As for BG1 play a fighter / thief in your evil group. Dual class Shar-Teel to thief and point all of her points into hiding and moving silently whilst you take care of utilities such as locks, traps and illusions. Then when BG2 rolls over, put all your points into hiding and moving silently. Thieves also get the HLA use any item remember, so they can effectively act as secondary mages, easing up your scroll and wand distribution.
I played a multi fighter / thief all through BG2 to ToB with no one but Viconia and Edwin on my team once. They provided the summons (distractions) as I skittered around the outside, backstabbing everywhere. Hell, I'd be tempted to use level 1 NPCs to change Viconia into a multi cleric / mage (she'd be way more effective than Aerie) and just leave it at that, a two NPC party with every angle covered.
Question: Is there ever a reason to choose a half-elf over an elf as a race? As far as I can see, the +1 bonus to bows and longswords is really useful, at essentally only a max con of 17.
L.
Answer: If you're going to play a bard it has to be the half-elf.
Good party: Imoen, Ajantis, Mincs, Dynaheir - fighter/early dual to cleric, or pure class Priest of Lathander, then add Coran. Either way, your cleric will make a good frontliner/tank and be an efficient healer. By adding Coran as archer and backup thief, you get a flexible party - he can pick up some thief duties if you dual Imoen to mage later.
Neutral party: Jaheira, Xan, Branwen, Safana - except for Branwen and Jaheira, neutral NPCs lean to the squishy side, so a fighter is a good call. I find pure fighters insanely boring to play, so I'd either dual (might need a thief before you get Safana) or go with a non-human kit. Branwen and Jaheira are both tank-y, so the best fit would be a damage dealer - I'd make a half orc Barbarian or Berzerker and take Garrick as last NPC, focussing on his crossbow and using his spells for utility only (Knock, Identify on low levels; or long lasting buffs you cast before entering a fight - gets around the whole "can't cast in armor" issue).
Evil party: Edwin, Vicona, and Shar-Teel - assassin. Dual Shar-Teel to thief and take Kagain and Dorn to frontline; Shar-Teel does the main thief duties of traps/locks (and with her strength, she can afford to invest a bit in stealth - she can bash most locks open; if not: Dorn can) and is flexible - she's a great backstabber and good with whatever ranged weapon you decide to give her. Meanwhile, you poison backstab everything in sight. The alternative is to take Xzar (dual to cleric) and Montaron as trap/lock thief and mean slinger. Dualed Xzar is the best thing that ever happened to an evil party; necromancer 6/cleric 8 with highest possible wisdom after 3 tomes - a casting machine that can buff and frontline and is very entertaining.
Good MC: My team will likely be Imoen, Ajantic, Mincs, Dynaheir, and TBA. I am going to play a healer type.
dwarf fighter/cleric or ranger/cleric is the easiest and newb friendly here ranger cleric will have few druidic spells like summon nymphs and will make so much chaos in enemy lines that you could easily solo
Neutral MC: Team will likely be Jaheira, Xan, Branwen, Safana, and TBA.
kensai with jaheiras barskin and some buffs will pumel everything or just go for berserker/barbarian easy~ you could also switch branwen for khalid = more fighters
Evil MC: Most room for change in this party, but I'm thinking Edwin, Vicona, and Shar-Teel as my core, rest still open.
dwarf thief/fighter for tanky thief because shar-teel is not tanky fighter at all, can add kagain for easy best tank with gloves dwarf swashbuckler could do the job but he won't be as tanky as fighter/thief and won't hit as hard without fighter apr/str so
Although the Fighter/Thief gets a better multiplier for backstabs, I actually enjoy backstabbing a lot more with a Stalker, as theirs land more often due to the better THACO, they level up faster, have more hit points and almost guaranteed better stats overall (due to the Ranger requirements), not to mention the free duel wielding for an extra follow through strike to finish those who survive the initial backstab. Stalkers will also most likely have better stealth (which seems waaaayyyyy under-rated by many on this board...as stealth seems commonly ignored when comparing fighters to rangers, as if it didn't matter, heh), enabling backstabbing to happen easier, even in broad daylight. An elf stalker with 19 DEX wearing the easily aquirable stealth boots will have 100% stealth at 4th level! Soon thereafter, no equipment is required to have rockin' stealth, so the Stalker can sport the Boots of Speed, at which point you are a super ninja!
The only reasons I would choose a F/T over a Stalker as my main character is if I was running solo or without another thief in the party to rock traps/locks, or for role playing.
A Thief dual-classed to a Fighter will probably be better than a Stalker: - Fighter gets the same THAC0 progression as Stalker. - Once you've dualled to a Fighter you would actually level up faster than the Stalker. You'd actually catch up and surpass the Stalker by Fighter level 12. And a T->F will reach Fighter level 39 while a Stalker can only reach level 34. - If you dual a Thief at level 9 you'll get the same 4x multiplier as a Stalker, but much earlier (610,000XP required for T->F vs. 2,700,000XP for Stalker). - A Thief at level 9 will have more than enough thieving points to get over 100 in both HIS and MS. - A T->F would be able to get Grandmastery. You wouldn't get the two free points in Two Weapon Style, but I think a Fighter gets more than enough proficiency points to put them in whatever they want anyway. - It's not at all difficult to roll enough points to max out the stats that are important to a F/T. Assuming a roll of 85, having 18 STR, 18 DEX, 16 CON (Thief HP bonus maxes at 16 CON, so no need for 18) still leaves 33 for INT, WIS, and CHA, which would be decent enough for a fighter anyway. - No need to be good. - If using stealth isn't advantageous in a fight, you can switch to heavy armor.
Advantages of a Stalker over T->F: - Maybe more HP. But the gap will decrease later on because the Fighter can gain 5 additional levels. Though the gap will be bigger if you play with max HP rolls. - Ranger spells. - Not necessary to be Human.
That is one reason I find Fighter>? Duals easier to rationalise. It makes more sense to me that a Fighter would require some downtime in order to pick up the skills of a different class, like a Mage, Druid or Thief.
Good points, however, duel-classing is a boring drag to me, easy to see why later additions of D&D dropped it. I don't like having a character on-hold for a significant % of the game, especially my main character (basically going without stealth/backstabbing at all for many levels in this comparison). Meanwhile, a Stalker will just keep getting tougher and sneakier without ever having to be babysat ("sorry, you can't sneak right now, you're too busy learning how to swing your sword"). If I'm gonna play a F/T then I'd play a multi-classed.
that is so true i wish it could work like in 3rd ed
Comments
I'm still set on the good fighter/cleric. For my neutral fighter, i keep coming back to the idea of a fighter/thief. Can someone help me do a pro/con of these choices?
I would think the con is the slower exp growth, and in BG1, the one less level of fighter. But getting 8 levels of thief could help my thief out quite a bit there. Again, I've never done BG2, so i'm not so sure how the pro/cons carry over to there. Could one pick a kit while being a multi-class?
For the evil thief, How would an elf mage/thief hold up against a pure halfling thief? Thought?
If team choice matters, I'm thinking:
Good: Self as Fighter/Cleric, Imoen, Ajantis, Mincs, Dynaheir, Coran/Rasheed.
Neutral: Self as Fighter (or fighter thief, above), Xan, Safana, Jaheira, Branwen, Neera (If Neutral), Garrick/Qualye if not.
Evil: Self as Thief (or mage/thief, above), Shar-Teel, Vicona, Edwin...and still TBA lol. I keep debating these selections, but I'm thinking something like Norn and Tiax.
Assuming Imoen is dueled to a mage, going with Fighter/thief for the neutral team and mage/thief for the evil gives every team at least two people with healing skills, mage skills, thief skills, and fighter skills. I think this could work really well....in theory. Any thoughts to how it works in practice?
Any help is appreciated!
multi-class works very well with no kits and it doesn't require the special planning and oddness the dual class involves like:
what level to dual class at -
once you dual class losing your first class abilities until your second class reaches a higher level (or same level maybe?) than first class
this leaves you as somewhat of a wimp dependent on the rest of the party to hold you up in the meantime or if you want to speed up the process then breaking immersion by going off to find someplace to grind out some levels
This also means depending on how many levels you go with the first class that it may well be near the last third of the game before you actually get all the benefits of both classes - while a multiclass has them for the entire game with only a somewhat slower progression than the single classes do.
The few times I cared to dual a character I never did it above level 9.
I also don't have any problems with multiclasses. I always had fun playing them. And although they progress slowly, they always have all their abilities available.
For example...On paper, the fighter/thief gets a nice backstab, and the the thief/mage can now use invisibility and knock to enhance thief skills. Do these warrant the multi class option?
As a figther/thief you get weapon specialization, higher hit points and if not using your thief abilities, access to heavy armor since the begining of the game. And when you reach epic levels access to both thief and fighter HLAs. Some very lethal combinations there.
As a mage thief, you get access to the self-boosting and self-protection spells along with your thieving abilities and weapon proficiencies. Just imagine the following combination in play: improved invisibility + haste + stone skin + backstab. The combination of mage and thief HLAs are very interesting also.
I have always favored multiclasses instead of duals, I think they're more fun to play. You may be interested in the discussion going on in the general area about cleric/thief multiclass, that is seriously making me consider one for my first run of BG EE.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/5338/the-clericthief-support-group#latest
That said if you have no problem with leaving the main storyline and going off to explore the world in order to grab some additional levels before reaching some of the main story goals - there is plenty of experience out there to do so and I for one enjoy that sort of journey - you can also enhance experience gain by dropping off several of your companions for a while and adventure with a smaller group or solo.
One drawback to this is those companions you drop off will not gain any experience during that time so another option is to avoid picking them up until you get more levels (then they will come into the party at a higher level closer to your current level ) - choices, choices choices... ;-)
If on the other hand you tend to be an impatient gamer who wants to push on through the main plot and is not that interested in completing every little side quest or exploring every map then you would be a better candidate for a single class (IMO).
The great thing about being multiclassed, rather than dual classed is you're still gaining all the benefits from the fighter class, such as thac0 and being able to specialise. Combine that with the thief HLA Assassination and they're pretty deadly. I'd also implore you to put points into detect illusion and set snares, which are massively underrated (well, maybe not set snares).
As for BG1 play a fighter / thief in your evil group. Dual class Shar-Teel to thief and point all of her points into hiding and moving silently whilst you take care of utilities such as locks, traps and illusions. Then when BG2 rolls over, put all your points into hiding and moving silently. Thieves also get the HLA use any item remember, so they can effectively act as secondary mages, easing up your scroll and wand distribution.
I played a multi fighter / thief all through BG2 to ToB with no one but Viconia and Edwin on my team once. They provided the summons (distractions) as I skittered around the outside, backstabbing everywhere. Hell, I'd be tempted to use level 1 NPCs to change Viconia into a multi cleric / mage (she'd be way more effective than Aerie) and just leave it at that, a two NPC party with every angle covered.
Neutral party: Jaheira, Xan, Branwen, Safana - except for Branwen and Jaheira, neutral NPCs lean to the squishy side, so a fighter is a good call. I find pure fighters insanely boring to play, so I'd either dual (might need a thief before you get Safana) or go with a non-human kit. Branwen and Jaheira are both tank-y, so the best fit would be a damage dealer - I'd make a half orc Barbarian or Berzerker and take Garrick as last NPC, focussing on his crossbow and using his spells for utility only (Knock, Identify on low levels; or long lasting buffs you cast before entering a fight - gets around the whole "can't cast in armor" issue).
Evil party: Edwin, Vicona, and Shar-Teel - assassin. Dual Shar-Teel to thief and take Kagain and Dorn to frontline; Shar-Teel does the main thief duties of traps/locks (and with her strength, she can afford to invest a bit in stealth - she can bash most locks open; if not: Dorn can) and is flexible - she's a great backstabber and good with whatever ranged weapon you decide to give her. Meanwhile, you poison backstab everything in sight.
The alternative is to take Xzar (dual to cleric) and Montaron as trap/lock thief and mean slinger. Dualed Xzar is the best thing that ever happened to an evil party; necromancer 6/cleric 8 with highest possible wisdom after 3 tomes - a casting machine that can buff and frontline and is very entertaining.
ranger cleric will have few druidic spells like summon nymphs and will make so much chaos in enemy lines that you could easily solo kensai with jaheiras barskin and some buffs will pumel everything or just go for berserker/barbarian easy~ you could also switch branwen for khalid = more fighters dwarf thief/fighter for tanky thief because shar-teel is not tanky fighter at all, can add kagain for easy best tank with gloves
dwarf swashbuckler could do the job but he won't be as tanky as fighter/thief and won't hit as hard without fighter apr/str so
- Fighter gets the same THAC0 progression as Stalker.
- Once you've dualled to a Fighter you would actually level up faster than the Stalker. You'd actually catch up and surpass the Stalker by Fighter level 12. And a T->F will reach Fighter level 39 while a Stalker can only reach level 34.
- If you dual a Thief at level 9 you'll get the same 4x multiplier as a Stalker, but much earlier (610,000XP required for T->F vs. 2,700,000XP for Stalker).
- A Thief at level 9 will have more than enough thieving points to get over 100 in both HIS and MS.
- A T->F would be able to get Grandmastery. You wouldn't get the two free points in Two Weapon Style, but I think a Fighter gets more than enough proficiency points to put them in whatever they want anyway.
- It's not at all difficult to roll enough points to max out the stats that are important to a F/T. Assuming a roll of 85, having 18 STR, 18 DEX, 16 CON (Thief HP bonus maxes at 16 CON, so no need for 18) still leaves 33 for INT, WIS, and CHA, which would be decent enough for a fighter anyway.
- No need to be good.
- If using stealth isn't advantageous in a fight, you can switch to heavy armor.
Advantages of a Stalker over T->F:
- Maybe more HP. But the gap will decrease later on because the Fighter can gain 5 additional levels. Though the gap will be bigger if you play with max HP rolls.
- Ranger spells.
- Not necessary to be Human.
that is so true
i wish it could work like in 3rd ed