(math help) FMT: Anything better than Crom Mainhand without exploit?
ahhyep
Member Posts: 114
(solo) for FMT?
Looking like Evil FMT can only get 22. Lose out on 4 damage per swing (40 per round) and 3 thac0.
18 base
1 book
2 evil hell trial
1 lum machine
Offhand is scarlet ninja-to to get 10APR. If I were to use Crom in the Offhand, I'd only have 8 apr total.
Theoretically, I should be able to get +1 str from Deck (but I was getting Dex as FMT last time) and +1 from UAI -> Cleric Ring, which would put me at 24. Even then, I'd lose out on 2 damage per swing (20 per round) and 2 thac0, and 3AC/Saves from Deck ring instead.
Mainhand FOA+5 would be best if it wasn't for the Free Action preventing Imp Haste APR. Would like an alternate mainhand for highest damage backstab for Assasination for the LOLs too.
Was thinking perhaps Club of Det or Foebane too? Or should I just say F-it and do Carsomyr/Staff of Ram and GWW
I think, unadulterated that Crom/Scarlet Ninja-To is best combo possible and that seems rather boring. Can anyone math me wrong?
Looking like Evil FMT can only get 22. Lose out on 4 damage per swing (40 per round) and 3 thac0.
18 base
1 book
2 evil hell trial
1 lum machine
Offhand is scarlet ninja-to to get 10APR. If I were to use Crom in the Offhand, I'd only have 8 apr total.
Theoretically, I should be able to get +1 str from Deck (but I was getting Dex as FMT last time) and +1 from UAI -> Cleric Ring, which would put me at 24. Even then, I'd lose out on 2 damage per swing (20 per round) and 2 thac0, and 3AC/Saves from Deck ring instead.
Mainhand FOA+5 would be best if it wasn't for the Free Action preventing Imp Haste APR. Would like an alternate mainhand for highest damage backstab for Assasination for the LOLs too.
Was thinking perhaps Club of Det or Foebane too? Or should I just say F-it and do Carsomyr/Staff of Ram and GWW
I think, unadulterated that Crom/Scarlet Ninja-To is best combo possible and that seems rather boring. Can anyone math me wrong?
1
Comments
Let's assume you want to use physical weapons, though.
Foebane+5 has 3d4+5 damage = 12.5 average per hit
Club of Detonation has 1d6+15 = 18.5 average per hit [without the 5% Fireball; rounding up slightly]
Crom Faeyr has 2d4+8 = 13 average per hit, plus the STR bonus which we need to calculate separately
[for reference, BBoD has 2d12+5 = 18 average per hit]
As you can see, Crom beats Foebane+5 even without the STR bonus. Club of Detonation is amazingly strong in theory, but a very large portion of its damage (10 points on average) is fire, which is the most commonly resisted/immuned element - then again, that can also be a benefit, such as vs. Stoneskin or such. Also, an interesting strategy is getting >100 fire resistance, resulting in actual heals for you when the Fireball goes off.
Now for the CF STR. Since it scales off your base STR in its relative efficacy, the damage you get out of it varies. In your 22 base case, you'd be getting "merely" +4 damage and +2 THAC0, which also applies to the offhand swing (so a little more than just adding it to Crom's average). That puts it about on par with Club, but without the surprise Fireball (which can be quite detrimental, or quite beneficial depending) and without the fire resistance issue (only 3 damage of Crom's damage is electrical). The extra THAC0 also translates to bonus damage, but how much is nearly impossible to calculate as an average due to the many various factors involved.
What's interesting about this, is that this is a discussion on the value of Crom as a MAIN hand, which would still let you pair it with an APR offhand. Considering that its damage is actually higher than anything but BBoD and FoA+5 (which doesn't allow haste but should be switched in during GWW), using it in Main with am APR offhand is actually the best choice.
Crom's own damage output tends to be overlooked, probably because IIRC it used to be bugged long ago and didn't display correctly (was displayed much lower, but actually did its correct higher damage).
Now, since I don't play with vanilla weapons I might be forgetting some relevant MHs in this discussion. But you can math it out yourself by calculating the averages, and comparing them to Crom; I don't think there is a contender, from what I recall.
TL;DR: Crom + APR is a very, very good combo. Only do Crom in the OH if you can't pair it with a +APR.
Personally, I just don't like backstabbing much and mostly don't bother, but I am an incredibly lazy person and should not be copied in any way.
For accuracy's sake:
Foebane +5 isn't 3D4, Laloch's is a flat +4 damage every time, so it's 2D4+5+4(+6). That's 11-17 damage against regular enemies, 14 damage average per hit.
Also Crom Faeyr is +5 Electrical, +3 regular, not the other way around.
I personally loathe the Club of Easily Resisted, since there are so, so many enemies that resist fire, a few that resist electrical, and very few that resist Magic, but yeah, not worth calculating that impact.
Crom is 2D4+8 + Strength = 2D4+22
The Scarlet Ninjato is +3, 1D8+3 + Strength = 1D8+17.
So that's 4 APR (assuming you have the APR from specialisation and gloves) gives 108 damage for Crom hits, 21ish damage from Ninjato hits, and +20 from proficiency/glove bonuses.
Total: ~149 average.
Meanwhile:
Foebane is 2D4+5+4 + Strength = 2D4+19
Scarlet Ninjato is 1D8+3 + Strength = 1D8+13.
4 APR of Foebane gives 96 + 17 Ninjato, +20 from prof/gloves.
Total: 133 average.
And with Crom Offhand:
Foebane is 2D4+5+4 + Strength = 2D4+23
Crom is 2D4+8 + Strength = 2D4+22
That's 111 +16 from prof/gloves.
Total: 127 average.
It's worth noting that Crom Faeyr gets a bonus to hit because it's Crushing damage, though at a certain point missing becomes unlikely against most enemies for fighting types.
Against Demons, Undead and Shapeshifters, Foebane is the best option at 157 average damage, and there are a lot of Demons and Undead out there.
If you use Haste, then Foebane with Crom Faeyr is the best option, since you'll get 155 damage/round average (179 against Foes).
If you use GWW, then damagewise nothing beats FoA+5, which gets 167.5 damage in its 5 APR half/round with 22 Strength, or 175 with an offhanded Crom Faeyr.
Finally comes the question as to what you mean by "better".
The Axe of the Unyielding deals less damage, but provokes death saves one in every ten hits, increases your AC, gives you 3 HP/round regeneration, and increases your HP.
Blackrazor is insanely powerful, with a 15% chance of draining 4 levels and boosts strength (at 22 strength up to 25), hastes, and heals you on top of regeneration and immunities. Level drain takes out spell slots, saves, THAC0, HP... It's hard to quantify, but it's definitely incredible.
The Answerer deals less damage, but if you have any party mates that aren't hitting on a 2 or better, then any extra hit that occurs because of the Answerer's AC or MR break is effectively bonus damage for the Answerer.
Storm Star does less base damage than the Club of Detonation, but if its 5% proc triggers, it's a party friendly 10D6 AOE in a less commonly resisted damage type, which is pretty awesome.
And with Foebane, you're not just dealing 133 damage, you're recovering 4 HP every time you hit. That's potentially 16 HP "regeneration" per round (or 40 with GWW), and it's healing that can't be "wasted", since any extra is added as temp HP.
133 damage + 16 healing?
~149, just like the Crom Faeyr.
There's definitely lots of issues to consider. Switching weapons based on enemies etc. is definitely optimal play, but as I am the laziest girl alive I just don't bother 99% of the time. I do tend to be very offense-oriented though, so I rarely care about defensive effects. A FMT should be pretty much invulnerable anyway.
The alternative weapons you mentioned are mostly fine, but probably not better than the alternatives. Blackrazor may be an exception as level drain can be a very valid kill condition against certain enemies. The Axe I don't like at all, vorpal hits rarely matter as all relevant enemies are immune (or just not present at that point in the game, like e.g. masses of beholders).
Didn't know that Foebane's Drain always hit for 4, I was under the impression it's the same as the spell which is 1d4. Good to know! Equating its HP with damage in comparisons is certainly one way to go about it, personally I don't like mixing those things up, doubly so for characters that are already defensive gods like FMT.
But these issues are all very arguable, and the differences are usually marginal.
I hit usually for 32ish dmg a swing on 9 out of my 10 attacks, and then 27ish on my only offhand hit, which has a poison that ticks every second and interrupts casting. the electrical damage also interrupts.i can kill a mage before his stoneskins wear off and he cant cast anything. regen and mirror images + stoneskin are more than enough "healing" so foebane misses out.
just something doesn't sit well with me on not being able to backstab with crom
black blade of disaster is 21-49 damage but rarely hits for shockingly higher backstabs than aruvundal anyways.
i'm looking for a really fresh solo powergaming experience but i keep coming back to a fricken unstoppable FMT.
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/44968/17695-black-blade-of-disaster-should-set-long-sword-proficiency-to-5-pips#latest
proficiences: 2 staff, 2 2Hsword, 2 2Hand Weapon and you will have double chance crits very soon.
You will also have a +4 staff and a +3 2H Sword (immunity to charm and confusion) in the beginning of SoA, and a charge staff for backstabs.
Dealing both slashing and crushing is useful.
Later on Carsomyr (dispell on hit and TS, slot savers), the antimage, and the +4 Soul Reaver (lowers THACO ),the antifighter, Ram and upgraded Ram, the backstabber and damage dealer, Gram.
You use some of the best weapons in every stage of the game, maybe not the best damage dealers as you don't DW, but with very useful effects. In early SoA a failed save against an Humber Hulk is game over, give + 10 THACO (5 hits with SR) at the Demon Prince and he will hit you only on crits, backstab with the charde staff and kill on hit.
And you spare some proficiences for a ranged one, or Halberd for Ravager (no save vorpal), Dragon's Breath (many types of damage through stoneskin), Wave (less useful I admit). Sharing the benefit of 2Hand Weapon pips.
With cap remover the option of BBoD and scarlet is also possible, maybe 1 pip in scimitar is useful but not really needed.
This require some micromanaging, but I can swich to inventory and change weapons in no time.
Also with this build some HLA are more useful than others, for regular enemies IH is fine, for bosses GWW is needed and with Ravager the chance of vorpal hit is really high, Assassination with Ram is devastating. And very few foe is immune to backstab and vorpal at the same time.
Powerful in ALL the game and really powerful when needed in late game. This for me is better then optimizing for some more dmg with weapons that you have only a little portion of the game.
If you want to just deal damage, you can run and grab the FoA+3 and Belm+2 literally as soon as you leave Athkatla. No need to finish the quests, and a thief can sneak in and grab everything you need. That should outdamage the vast majority of options right off the bat.
Flexibility is always good as an option, but it's rarely exclusionary. You can switch around ad hoc quite easily, to block detrimental effects or benefit from special bonuses. As a FMT you also have proficiency points to spare so you'll do well with a wide array of weapons.
But with FoA you can not backstab. and if you don't want to micromanage you can not upgrade it at +5. You have "wasted" some proficiences on it.
Don't get me wrong, proficiences on it are never wasted, but I hope you get my point, there is less synergy.
With my approach you have best use of the first 6 proficiences, good crushing and slashing weapons, a super backstabbing one and immunity to charm and confusion doing only a minor quest, before even completing it, you get the sword after 2 easy battles. And you have chosen proficiencies for weapons types useful until the end. In end game you will have 2 of the better weapons of the game and a few others with useful effects (and I forgot SoTM) with the same 6 pips of proficiency. You don't need proficiences to backstab, proficiences to deal damage, proficiences to equip weapons with effects, proficiences for early or late game. You spend the pips number 7 and 8 for the +1 APR bow and then Gesen and still have enough for Ravager. Every Weapon you equip you will have 2 pips on it and for the mlee ones other 2 pips useful for that weapon type.
Is not flexibility, is synergy in flexibility. And is the reason why I like this build for my FMT, even if is not the only effective one.
To use the Sunfire you don't have to be proficient at all, the benefits of my build are of a type that you can benefit if you are proficient, like immunities as you are fighting or dispel or drain on hit, only the TS of Carsomyr is "static".
And I have my 2 proficiency points in 2H Weapon (double chance of crits, always useful and for a backstabber even better, DW don't have that advantage.
6apr with carsomyr, similar damage as Crom's swing TBH, Carsomyr and GWW do better.
I still have proficiencies for a ranged weapon and a vorpal one, and I hit always with MH THACO.
I told little better, more synergy. Also you build and other ones are really good, at this level of optimization a relevant advantage is simply not possible.
I use spectral brand as my backstab weapon. You already have it covered with you proficiencies for scarlet and it is a +5 weapon with great damage and it has a special ability that allows you a bonus of +10 to your thaco for 3 rounds which will guarantee a successful backstab. It can also summon a sword that will distract the enemy and allow you to disappear and backstab again with ease. Just start off the battle with a backstab from spectral brand and then easily switch to CF for your 10X attacks with 25 strength and you don't have to mess with your inventory because both weapons are quick weapons that are equipped at all times. Works nice for me.
Spectral Brand does 1D8+5+1D6 cold damage and has a speed factor of 1. It's a decent weapon that you are already specialized in. Proficiency points are few and far between so it works the best for me.
I could answer that until the third floor of Watcher's Keep you don't find a good backstabbing scimitar, when the staff of striking is available right at the beginning and much more useful when the FMT has only a 3 x multiplier. I could also tell that in my build switching from carsomyr to ram is as easy as switching from CF to SB and equipping gesen bow when needed and keep it equipped as long as is useful, in combination with the sword or staff, is not so micromanage heavy. And it is more damaging and effective, if equipped with the right arrows (normal, enchanted or elemental as needed), then MMM, that also prevent yourself from using another weapon as long as they are active and consume a spell slot and deal fire damage, the easiest resisted in the game, and that also my FMT can use at will, as he can use MM.
I could, but I don't tell it
because I already told that imo at this level of optimization almost all builds are good, and the differences are minimal.
If I dual wield I usually give up my long range weapons. If You have two pips in Katana's it makes for a powerful setup before you can use CF or Carsomyr since you can use celestial fury as a main hand weapon that backstabs. you can keep celestial fury around as your backstab weapon after you assemble CF and then swap out Celestial Fury for spectral Brand when you get to watchers keep. That is what I did with my dual wield build.
To disrupt a mage protected with stoneskin before you can close the distance, to use assassination with an arrow of detonation (maybe from simulacrum) and give massive damage to a large group of enemies, just because sometimes I can be bored to always go there with my uber mlee weapon and let the toon kill everyone with a single click each enemy and I want also to try some different tactics, even if they can take a couple of rounds more, and sometimes the foe is trapped in a corner by my summons and there is no space to reach him mlee. Stuck Iron Golems are a good reason, but not for me, I used that tactic a lot in the past, now is no more needed and I look for something more challenging, but for others is still a good reason, like in the past was for me.
For me is also a matter of optimization, even if I can decide to never use a ranged weapon the only fact that I can make good use of my pips, covering backstabbing, slashing and crushing with the bonus of doubled crits, ranged and have still enough pips for a vorpal one, that share the bonus of doubled crits, is something that make me feel satisfied. Because I prefer versatility over raw damage and if I can have it with almost the same raw damage well.... for me this is fantastic!
Those are some of my personal reasons. But I agree with you that there is not a real need, I could also live without ranged weapons.
10 pips to have the same that my build do with 4, I don't think there is much synergy in it. Is true that a multi can not put more that 2 in each weapon, but trying to use them in a way that is effective in all game and not put pips for the early game weapon and pips for the late game substitute is better. I like more the long sword and scimitar build of @ahhyep if you choose to DW.
Just my personal taste anyway.
Possible variations include not going Katana and instead either Long Swords, Axes, or Maces for the anti-undead weapons (Daystar, Azuredge, Mace of Disruption, respectively).
While the Flails pips are "wasted" in the sense that you won't be using FoA+5 sustained at endgame due to the haste restriction, you'd still want to switch it in for GWW as it has the highest per-hit damage. Also, considering how early you can get FoA+3 you're likely going to use it for well over half of SoA which imo makes it absolutely worth it.
You wrote Two-Handed Weapons, I suppose is a typo and you did mean Two-Handed Swords.
Got Helm of Balduran, Ring of Gaxx, Boots of Speed, Belt of Intertial Barrier, Robe of Vecna so far for my end game set. I might hold off on getting the ring/amulet of power for a while as I am already too overpowered. 5apr with normal haste.
Edit: i liked also the wrong post