Kundane/Belm ?
DevardKrown
Member Posts: 421
If i wield Ether of those in my Offhand i will not gain any speed factor or APR, so is there any reason as a Fighter to go beyond 3 Pips in Short swords/Scimitars at all ? (making a Good ole Kensage 9/30 so i have 1 Grandmaster Weapon and 2 Pips dualwild (gonna start with bastard swords) forced to slap 1 pip in daggers or staffs and then the next 3 in SS/Sci and then still have 2 to ether grandmaster those or set it to 4 and finish dualwield
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My advice would be to avoid short swords altogether. There isn't enough of them to justify it when compared with the much better long swords. The extra attack from Kundane becomes largely irrelevant late game, because you won't be able to hit anything with it (anything significant, at least), nor will it dish out an acceptable amount of damage. Then you realize you don't have any other decent short swords to compensate, and you are lacking in proficiencies in other weapons.
Katana proficiencies are always a good bet, because you can get a +3 katana pretty early on with decent abilities (Celestial Fury), and it's a strong sword throughout most of the game. Daystar is a pretty solid long sword you can get early on too.
i could now do one of the following , use a rd* for dual wield , and 3 in shortsword making kundane viable for SoA wich in TOB will become obsolete since it wont hit (but still grant one attack to main hand)
or just put that lvl 6 mage pip in dualwield wield 2 Bastard Swords and have overall 1 lesser attack but they are ALL viable the problem i have no clue where to get another Bastard Sword aside Foebane+3
the Brass Blase+5 is another awesome weapon but i despide the burning blade model it has
As for the pips in dual-wield, 2 is generally sufficient. The 3rd does fairly little, and should only be taken for lack of other useful options.
You should always use a +APR weapon if possible. They are mathematically the best choice over any other off-hand weapon. Even the +STR weapons are better used in the MH paired with a +APR weapon. The only time you can consider something else is when you're playing defensively, i.e. you want special buffs, protections, etc. and don't care about lower damage.
Note that mathematically, you benefit from +APR weapons even when they NEVER hit (total immunity) - meaning that you should use a +APR offhand even if you have 0 pips in the proficiency.
Math proof for the nerds:
With an APR Offhand this becomes:
Damage = MH * (APR-1+1) + OH * 1
or:
Damage = MH * APR + OH
since:
MH * APR > MH * (APR-1)
is always true, that means that even if OH = 0 (total immunity), you at worst break even since:
MH > OH
is a given (otherwise OH would *be* MH).
QED
EDIT: The Brass Blade is not obtainable in the game through normal means. It's in the game files, but can't be found anywhere; a good thing, since it's stupidly overpowered.
Sure, they don't put out as much raw damage as other weapons, but the versatility in abilities more than makes up for it, and they tend to be consistent from start to finish. Definitely the most reliable proficiency.
But Kudane is a +2 what about that ?
Note that mathematically, you benefit from +APR weapons even when they NEVER hit (total immunity) - meaning that you should use a +APR offhand even if you have 0 pips in the proficiency.
Does that +APR also double with improved haste ? which would be 2 Extra swings MH, whats the same the offhand would provide anyway
Sofar as i see it now
1 Base 1 Grandmaster 1 APRbonus 1/2 Fighter lvl 9 and a offhand swing are 9/2 swings from which one is meh , improved haste(what i only use for real tough cookies) i had 9 swings from which 2 are meh
vs
1base 1 grandmaster 1/2 fighter and 1 offhand all viable 7/2 swings , 7 with improved haste , even witht hat extra pip in dual wield and a +5 instead of +2 i get 2 swings who are less worthy then my 7 mainhand swings of the first calculation.
whelp Kudane offhand it is~
in BG 2 i go me (fighter mage) jan jansen and viconia , 3 man core party
So that leaves you without a melee character until you get your Fighter levels back. You'll definitely want to be wise with your weapon choices, in that case.
Edit: Actually, if you dual at level 9, you won't have to wait that long at all.
I too had my runs of such thoughts throughout BG2 and now the EEs ^^.
Solution? I either make my own weapon (i restrict myself to 1 item only ^^ and lie to myself "it is powered by the Bhaal essence ^^).
OR I just play the game using most logical paths of reason from the Charname's perspective (not the player). Reason is I can become overly mathematical like those numbers presented by Lord_Tansheron
and soend too much time thinking of new ways to try different maths.
General rule of my own game play I adopted is -- if I want an easily +4 weapon (meaning off the shelf) early in the game, I will add more * to it
What you are not factoring is whether +x damage from the offhand (applied to main hand) is better or worse than +1 attack from the offhand (applied to main hand). Classic examples are Crom Faeyr or Equalizer in the offhand applied to say Flail of Ages in mainhand. And at that point the calculation is variable depending on existing THAC0, damage, number of attacks etc. But there will always be a point where the additional damage the offhand provides to the main hand (Crom Faeyr, Equalizer) is superior to the extra attack the offhand provides to the main hand (Belm, Kundane).
Really simple example: if expected damage per main hand attack is say 11, and Equalizer adds +4 damage; then if existing mainhand APR is =>3, Equalizer is superior to Belm (+12 or greater damage vs +10 expected damage from additional attack). If mainhand APR is less than 3, then Belm would be superior.
Naturally the above will vary based on particular circumstances but the principle of + damage from offhand > +APR from offhand at certain thresholds will always remain in force.
As for Crom, it's damage is so high that it's main hand quality that gets even better with more APR.
In the end it depends on your build, your equipment, and where you are in the game that should dictate what you equip in that moment.
"You should always use a +APR weapon if possible"
I am aware of the Equalizer fix but it still applies to Crom. It also does not mean that Crom then automatically becomes mainhand weapon because expected damage from another weapon in main hand could still be superior to Crom (e.g. due to proficiencies).
You are right though that there ARE some fringe cases in which things are off, but those are virtually always the result of item/class availability; i.e., if you can't use all the options available, that naturally eliminates certain combinations. That doesn't mean they aren't theoretically better, it just means you can't practically apply them. An example would be a Cleric, who simply can't use +APR offhands; or, conversely, a Cleric who *could* use Crom Faeyr, but would get a reduced benefit due to redundancy with DuHM.
The goal isn't to find a 100% accurate generalization, because the number of variables involved would just confuse people who don't know what they're doing - and they are the intended audience here, because people who DO know don't need the information in the first place.
If you are looking for an explicit mention of a caveat, then here: always do the math yourself, always think about the various variables involved because based on party/class composition, difficulty setting, mods, personal preference, the lunar cycle and the color of your pants may or may not influence things subtly one way or the other. This statement is intended to be helpful and in no way vague and meaningless, I promise.
I know you are trying to be helpful and it is appreciated and good to read. I think you are underestimating when you refer to fringe case exceptions. I would contend it is not fringe case at all but actually mainstream, and there are many situations where + damage from offhand is superior to + attack from offhand. The biggest you are overlooking is proficiencies. If somebody is say grandmaster in flails or katana and only specialist in say hammer, then Celestial Fury or Flail of Ages in mainhand is superior to Crom Faeyr in mainhand, since expected damage is greater with the grandmaster weapons (combination of extra attack and damage from proficiency). But then, Crom Faeyr in offhand becomes superior to Belm in offhand because the extra damage from 25 STR on existing mainhand attacks is superior to 1 extra attack from the mainhand weapon.
This is not a sophism, 3 examples: a cleric with 25STR by spells get no added dmg, equipping it MH dmg is also added to OH, also THACO is added. The last 2 things make Belm and Kundane very good hitters with the +7 and +14 bonus. The "sophism" show some interesting implications.
In calculation about weapon dmg and the usefulnes of a +1APR weapon OH a correct build and proficiences allocations have to be granted. Other way we can demonstrate that as an inferior weapon used with GM in it is more damaging then a superior one used without any proficiency, the inferior one is superior. Is already difficult to compare weapons without giving a definite build, if we consider also badly build toons, who don't have the proficiences allocated well for the weapons they want to use, no confrontation is possible at all.
Party members: Aerie, Yoshimo-Imoen, Valgyar, Keldorn with a little Jan Jansen just for a change of pace.
Pls forgive the Tomb-robber.