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Kundane/Belm ?

If i wield Ether of those in my Offhand i will not gain any speed factor or APR, so is there any reason as a Fighter to go beyond 3 Pips in Short swords/Scimitars at all ? (making a Good ole Kensage 9/30 so i have 1 Grandmaster Weapon and 2 Pips dualwild (gonna start with bastard swords) forced to slap 1 pip in daggers or staffs and then the next 3 in SS/Sci and then still have 2 to ether grandmaster those or set it to 4 and finish dualwield

Comments

  • wraith5641wraith5641 Member Posts: 500
    edited February 2016
    What are your current proficiencies and what level are you?

    My advice would be to avoid short swords altogether. There isn't enough of them to justify it when compared with the much better long swords. The extra attack from Kundane becomes largely irrelevant late game, because you won't be able to hit anything with it (anything significant, at least), nor will it dish out an acceptable amount of damage. Then you realize you don't have any other decent short swords to compensate, and you are lacking in proficiencies in other weapons.

    Katana proficiencies are always a good bet, because you can get a +3 katana pretty early on with decent abilities (Celestial Fury), and it's a strong sword throughout most of the game. Daystar is a pretty solid long sword you can get early on too.
  • DevardKrownDevardKrown Member Posts: 421

    What are your current proficiencies and what level are you?

    gonna create that one ;) just preplaning a little so nothing yet
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    You still get damage/THAC0 bonuses, but generally speaking the APR from *** and ****** are the most valuable bonuses - and you're absolutely right in that they do not apply to an offhand weapon. So, whether you spend more pips in your OH weapon's type is entirely dependent on whether you have anything else to use them for that is more effective. If you're regularly switching to some other weapon type in your MH, for example, then go for that over the OH. But if not... well, small benefits are still better than no benefits.
  • wraith5641wraith5641 Member Posts: 500
    @Lord_Tansheron Would you ever recommend using a short sword at all? I don't think a single one of my characters used one. There are far better weapon proficiencies that actually have longevity, imo.

  • DevardKrownDevardKrown Member Posts: 421

    @Lord_Tansheron Would you ever recommend using a short sword at all? I don't think a single one of my characters used one. There are far better weapon proficiencies that actually have longevity, imo.

    okay More details , i Start out as a Kensai/Fighter going to lvl 9 ..during that i will Use Bastard Sword and Finish with Bastard Swords ***** and Dual Wield ** then dual-class to mage where i MUST use one * in dagger or Staffs (because darts or sling will become unusable once kensai knocks back in) on lvl 5 i pause my Mage progression until i gatherd up 300~ k xp alowing me the jump from a lvl 5 to a lvl 10 mage in one go unlocking my fighter levels and allowing me to use the lvl 6 mage * in my Fighter skills (and later on 12 18 24 and 30 so a left over of 5 ***** in totall.

    i could now do one of the following , use a rd* for dual wield , and 3 in shortsword making kundane viable for SoA wich in TOB will become obsolete since it wont hit (but still grant one attack to main hand)

    or just put that lvl 6 mage pip in dualwield wield 2 Bastard Swords and have overall 1 lesser attack but they are ALL viable the problem i have no clue where to get another Bastard Sword aside Foebane+3

  • wraith5641wraith5641 Member Posts: 500
    @DevardKrown Why bastard swords over long swords?
  • DevardKrownDevardKrown Member Posts: 421

    @DevardKrown Why bastard swords over long swords?

    Cool Factor , dmg range 2-8 instead of 1-8 and foebane +5 is rather sick (+1 saves , larlochs minor drain without saves on every hit and +6 dmg against undead demons and alike) (and you get the +3 version in watchers keep, actually can you still go twice in watchers ?(remember reading that somewhere) once in SoA and ToB and get Foebane TWICE ? that would cement my decision.
    the Brass Blase+5 is another awesome weapon but i despide the burning blade model it has
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    edited February 2016

    making kundane viable for SoA wich in TOB will become obsolete since it wont hit (but still grant one attack to main hand)

    Let me jump in right there and clear a long-standing myth about enchantment levels. There's like 5 or so enemies in the entire game you can't hit with +3.

    As for the pips in dual-wield, 2 is generally sufficient. The 3rd does fairly little, and should only be taken for lack of other useful options.

    You should always use a +APR weapon if possible. They are mathematically the best choice over any other off-hand weapon. Even the +STR weapons are better used in the MH paired with a +APR weapon. The only time you can consider something else is when you're playing defensively, i.e. you want special buffs, protections, etc. and don't care about lower damage.

    Note that mathematically, you benefit from +APR weapons even when they NEVER hit (total immunity) - meaning that you should use a +APR offhand even if you have 0 pips in the proficiency.

    Math proof for the nerds:

    Damage = MH * (APR-1) + OH * 1

    With an APR Offhand this becomes:

    Damage = MH * (APR-1+1) + OH * 1

    or:

    Damage = MH * APR + OH

    since:

    MH * APR > MH * (APR-1)

    is always true, that means that even if OH = 0 (total immunity), you at worst break even since:

    MH > OH

    is a given (otherwise OH would *be* MH).

    QED



    EDIT:

    the Brass Blase+5 is another awesome weapon but i despide the burning blade model it has

    The Brass Blade is not obtainable in the game through normal means. It's in the game files, but can't be found anywhere; a good thing, since it's stupidly overpowered.

  • wraith5641wraith5641 Member Posts: 500
    @DevardKrown I personally find long swords to be more versatile and suited to a variety of situations. Adjatha the Drinker you get fairly early on and offers "draining" damage among immunity to charm. Daystar can pretty effectively deal with undead, such as liches and vampires. Angurvadal makes you immune to level drain, raises your strength to 22, and puts out elemental damage (great for disrupting stoneskinned mages). Blackrazor is...well, Blackrazor. Level Drain, healing, haste, increases strength. Namarra is a nice little +2 long sword you can get almost as soon as you leave the first dungeon. Then you have Blade of the Roses which is effectively a +3 bastard sword with long sword proficiency. Fairly obtainable early on. Then you have The Answerer, Dragon Sword and many others that have something useful about them.

    Sure, they don't put out as much raw damage as other weapons, but the versatility in abilities more than makes up for it, and they tend to be consistent from start to finish. Definitely the most reliable proficiency.
  • DevardKrownDevardKrown Member Posts: 421
    edited February 2016
    Let me jump in right there and clear a long-standing myth about enchantment levels. There's like 5 or so enemies in the entire game you can't hit with +3.

    But Kudane is a +2 what about that ?

    Note that mathematically, you benefit from +APR weapons even when they NEVER hit (total immunity) - meaning that you should use a +APR offhand even if you have 0 pips in the proficiency.

    Does that +APR also double with improved haste ? which would be 2 Extra swings MH, whats the same the offhand would provide anyway

    Sofar as i see it now

    1 Base 1 Grandmaster 1 APRbonus 1/2 Fighter lvl 9 and a offhand swing are 9/2 swings from which one is meh , improved haste(what i only use for real tough cookies) i had 9 swings from which 2 are meh

    vs

    1base 1 grandmaster 1/2 fighter and 1 offhand all viable 7/2 swings , 7 with improved haste , even witht hat extra pip in dual wield and a +5 instead of +2 i get 2 swings who are less worthy then my 7 mainhand swings of the first calculation.


    whelp Kudane offhand it is~
  • wraith5641wraith5641 Member Posts: 500
    @Devardknown Are you playing solo? Because the importance of having an extra APR diminishes depending on who you have in your party.

  • DevardKrownDevardKrown Member Posts: 421

    @Devardknown Are you playing solo? Because the importance of having an extra APR diminishes depending on who you have in your party.

    for BG1 i run me (Fighter) Imoen (thief) Viconia (Cleric) and Dorn(blackguard) and that new Drow sorcerer , forgot his name <-< leaving one slot for characters then i feel questfancy , but yeah 5 man group

    in BG 2 i go me (fighter mage) jan jansen and viconia , 3 man core party :)
  • wraith5641wraith5641 Member Posts: 500
    edited February 2016
    @Devardkrown Baeloth ;)

    So that leaves you without a melee character until you get your Fighter levels back. You'll definitely want to be wise with your weapon choices, in that case.

    Edit: Actually, if you dual at level 9, you won't have to wait that long at all.
  • DevardKrownDevardKrown Member Posts: 421

    @Devardkrown Baeloth ;)

    So that leaves you without a melee character until you get your Fighter levels back. You'll definitely want to be wise with your weapon choices, in that case.

    Edit: Actually, if you dual at level 9, you won't have to wait that long at all.

    thats the point of doing it at 9 :) that half APR aint killin me and 250k are done in a but clench :P
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212

    thats the point of doing it at 9 :) that half APR aint killin me and 250k are done in a but clench :P

    This is indeed very much recommended. Lvl 13 is too step a cost, even for 1/2 APR.
  • BubblesBubbles Member Posts: 589
    Hmmm, design your own weapons and fill it with "Bhaalspawn" power ^^ (just teasing).
    I too had my runs of such thoughts throughout BG2 and now the EEs ^^.
    Solution? I either make my own weapon (i restrict myself to 1 item only ^^ and lie to myself "it is powered by the Bhaal essence ^^).
    OR I just play the game using most logical paths of reason from the Charname's perspective (not the player). Reason is I can become overly mathematical like those numbers presented by Lord_Tansheron
    and soend too much time thinking of new ways to try different maths.

    General rule of my own game play I adopted is -- if I want an easily +4 weapon (meaning off the shelf) early in the game, I will add more * to it
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 614

    making kundane viable for SoA wich in TOB will become obsolete since it wont hit (but still grant one attack to main hand)

    Let me jump in right there and clear a long-standing myth about enchantment levels. There's like 5 or so enemies in the entire game you can't hit with +3.

    As for the pips in dual-wield, 2 is generally sufficient. The 3rd does fairly little, and should only be taken for lack of other useful options.

    You should always use a +APR weapon if possible. They are mathematically the best choice over any other off-hand weapon. Even the +STR weapons are better used in the MH paired with a +APR weapon. The only time you can consider something else is when you're playing defensively, i.e. you want special buffs, protections, etc. and don't care about lower damage.

    Note that mathematically, you benefit from +APR weapons even when they NEVER hit (total immunity) - meaning that you should use a +APR offhand even if you have 0 pips in the proficiency.

    Math proof for the nerds:

    Damage = MH * (APR-1) + OH * 1

    With an APR Offhand this becomes:

    Damage = MH * (APR-1+1) + OH * 1

    or:

    Damage = MH * APR + OH

    since:

    MH * APR > MH * (APR-1)

    is always true, that means that even if OH = 0 (total immunity), you at worst break even since:

    MH > OH

    is a given (otherwise OH would *be* MH).

    QED


    That's a rather flawed interpretation of maths you have there. All that is proving that +1 attack is better than +0 attack. Well, yeah. That's like saying "The highest number in the sequence 1, 2, 3 is 3. Ergo, 3 is the highest number ever."

    What you are not factoring is whether +x damage from the offhand (applied to main hand) is better or worse than +1 attack from the offhand (applied to main hand). Classic examples are Crom Faeyr or Equalizer in the offhand applied to say Flail of Ages in mainhand. And at that point the calculation is variable depending on existing THAC0, damage, number of attacks etc. But there will always be a point where the additional damage the offhand provides to the main hand (Crom Faeyr, Equalizer) is superior to the extra attack the offhand provides to the main hand (Belm, Kundane).

    Really simple example: if expected damage per main hand attack is say 11, and Equalizer adds +4 damage; then if existing mainhand APR is =>3, Equalizer is superior to Belm (+12 or greater damage vs +10 expected damage from additional attack). If mainhand APR is less than 3, then Belm would be superior.

    Naturally the above will vary based on particular circumstances but the principle of + damage from offhand > +APR from offhand at certain thresholds will always remain in force.
  • luskanluskan Member Posts: 269
    @Jaheiras_Witness not sure if you are aware, but EE fixed the Equalizer from transferring it's bonus to the main hand weapon.

    As for Crom, it's damage is so high that it's main hand quality that gets even better with more APR.

    In the end it depends on your build, your equipment, and where you are in the game that should dictate what you equip in that moment.
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 614
    I agree :). It depends entirely on build and particularly proficiencies. Which is why I object strongly to the statement:

    "You should always use a +APR weapon if possible"

    I am aware of the Equalizer fix but it still applies to Crom. It also does not mean that Crom then automatically becomes mainhand weapon because expected damage from another weapon in main hand could still be superior to Crom (e.g. due to proficiencies).
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    edited February 2016

    That's a rather flawed interpretation of maths you have there. All that is proving that +1 attack is better than +0 attack. Well, yeah. That's like saying "The highest number in the sequence 1, 2, 3 is 3. Ergo, 3 is the highest number ever."

    You're missing the point. The key part is that you gain one MAIN HAND attack, which means that even if you lose the OH completely (total immunity) you are still up the difference between an OH (non-APR) and MH attack - which given that MH > OH is always at least equal, but a net gain in the vast majority of cases. This is true regardless of what weapon you use, as long as you only care about the damage.

    Classic examples are Crom Faeyr or Equalizer in the offhand applied to say Flail of Ages in mainhand.

    In this cases also it is simply always better to use Crom Faeyr in the mainhand with a +APR offhand. Equalizer is a non-issue as it no longer works, as has been mentioned. Angurvadal is the same as Crom, just lower values, just like that one STR club. There are no other weapons that work similarly, to my knowledge. [disregarding bugs like thrown OH +APR which may have been fixed in the EE I don't know]

    You are right though that there ARE some fringe cases in which things are off, but those are virtually always the result of item/class availability; i.e., if you can't use all the options available, that naturally eliminates certain combinations. That doesn't mean they aren't theoretically better, it just means you can't practically apply them. An example would be a Cleric, who simply can't use +APR offhands; or, conversely, a Cleric who *could* use Crom Faeyr, but would get a reduced benefit due to redundancy with DuHM.

    The goal isn't to find a 100% accurate generalization, because the number of variables involved would just confuse people who don't know what they're doing - and they are the intended audience here, because people who DO know don't need the information in the first place.

    If you are looking for an explicit mention of a caveat, then here: always do the math yourself, always think about the various variables involved because based on party/class composition, difficulty setting, mods, personal preference, the lunar cycle and the color of your pants may or may not influence things subtly one way or the other. This statement is intended to be helpful and in no way vague and meaningless, I promise.
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 614
    I understand that the extra attack is on the main hand, nowhere have I referenced otherwise and the calculations I showed are also for main hand.

    I know you are trying to be helpful and it is appreciated and good to read. I think you are underestimating when you refer to fringe case exceptions. I would contend it is not fringe case at all but actually mainstream, and there are many situations where + damage from offhand is superior to + attack from offhand. The biggest you are overlooking is proficiencies. If somebody is say grandmaster in flails or katana and only specialist in say hammer, then Celestial Fury or Flail of Ages in mainhand is superior to Crom Faeyr in mainhand, since expected damage is greater with the grandmaster weapons (combination of extra attack and damage from proficiency). But then, Crom Faeyr in offhand becomes superior to Belm in offhand because the extra damage from 25 STR on existing mainhand attacks is superior to 1 extra attack from the mainhand weapon.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212

    there are many situations where + damage from offhand is superior to + attack from offhand.

    Could you elaborate what you mean by "+damage", exactly?

    The biggest you are overlooking is proficiencies. If somebody is say grandmaster in flails or katana and only specialist in say hammer, then Celestial Fury or Flail of Ages in mainhand is superior to Crom Faeyr in mainhand, since expected damage is greater with the grandmaster weapons (combination of extra attack and damage from proficiency).

    That's what I meant by "availability issues". Obviously if you CAN'T use a weapon fully, then that's not something in your control; you don't have a choice to make. It is implied that all these deliberations are for cases where you can actually MAKE a choice - if you're then deliberately choosing a non-optimal route, that's totally fine, but it doesn't change the underlying theory.
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 614
    + damage weapons are things like Crom Faeyr and vanilla Equalizer, which add damage to the main hand. So rather than adding 1 attack to the main hand (Belm and Kundane) you can instead add damage to all your main hand attacks. And thus the principle that adding more damage to several APR can be more effective than 1 extra attack from the main hand.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    edited February 2016

    + damage weapons are things like Crom Faeyr and vanilla Equalizer, which add damage to the main hand. So rather than adding 1 attack to the main hand (Belm and Kundane) you can instead add damage to all your main hand attacks. And thus the principle that adding more damage to several APR can be more effective than 1 extra attack from the main hand.

    I get that, but that doesn't change the fact that in that case, you're better off just using that weapon (Crom) in the main-hand and a +APR in the offhand. Equalizer may be a special case due to its bugged nature, but since it no longer works anyway it's fairly safe to disregard.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    edited February 2016
    Crom don't add any dmg to MH, it set STR at 25, a different thing. STR ,not the weapon, add dmg. That is relevant, how depends on how much STR can be obtained by different means then equipping a weapon, but different.
    This is not a sophism, 3 examples: a cleric with 25STR by spells get no added dmg, equipping it MH dmg is also added to OH, also THACO is added. The last 2 things make Belm and Kundane very good hitters with the +7 and +14 bonus. The "sophism" show some interesting implications.

    In calculation about weapon dmg and the usefulnes of a +1APR weapon OH a correct build and proficiences allocations have to be granted. Other way we can demonstrate that as an inferior weapon used with GM in it is more damaging then a superior one used without any proficiency, the inferior one is superior. Is already difficult to compare weapons without giving a definite build, if we consider also badly build toons, who don't have the proficiences allocated well for the weapons they want to use, no confrontation is possible at all.

  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    Commenting just to add this useful thread to my Participated file. Currently planning Fighter-Mage playthrough dual-wielding Long-Sword and Belm with proficiencies in Flail and Daggers.

    Party members: Aerie, Yoshimo-Imoen, Valgyar, Keldorn with a little Jan Jansen just for a change of pace.

    Pls forgive the Tomb-robber.
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