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SCS or BP. What is your AI enhancement of choice?

mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,693
edited September 2012 in General Modding
I often see people praising SCS (Sword Coast Stratagems) AI enhancements, but rarely hear anything about BP (Big Picture). So, which one do you prefer and why?

* Added full names of the mods for those who don't know them.

SCS or BP. What is your AI enhancement of choice? 159 votes

BP
6%
MailonkexikpsychlopeskilleahZalphahorredtheplagueIgniseusGigioBigioKainePMozziah 10 votes
SCS
66%
BalquolansounetAntonArdanisDemivrgvsGodKaiserHellmaverickMajocaMiridorAceofWandssnoorBugratParysScotGaymerLuruelYemethlefreutBerconDavidWagris 106 votes
Both, I use BWP to make them compatible
10%
DaggraxmlneveseZafiroKirinaldoastraurtypSilent_MarkdarrenkuoShadowlessnn125MandurangugarionNocatmOBIDICKAndRYUethan5422TrazzyWhoAteMahCake 17 votes
Neither, vanilla AI is good enough for me
16%
TingelWardStargazer5781PeccaFlashburnMathsorcererArcanisRythgarAwong124mtyler11DogmatixDrklghtGoobataotreesmady3CrevsDaakKavainAkihikomeaglothjackjack 26 votes
Post edited by mlnevese on
«1

Comments

  • WardWard Member Posts: 1,305
    Neither, vanilla AI is good enough for me
    I prefer no AI mods.

  • ZafiroZafiro Member Posts: 436
    Both, I use BWP to make them compatible
    The game always seems empty to me without SCS.

    syllog
  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    SCS
    Despite my love for SCS (I cannot play without it) I think the base game should not use SCS scripts (in fact afaik it won't). BGEE should simply limit itself to relatively small improvements over vanilla's scripts.

    SCS includes many tweaks or enhanced creature stats/abilities which may not be liked by some players, not to mention the level of difficulty of SCS is way beyond the average player of nowdays imo, and BGEE is supposed to be "for everyone" not just for "hardcore players".

    Cuvmtyler11Kirinaldo
  • Awong124Awong124 Member Posts: 2,643
    Neither, vanilla AI is good enough for me
    I like being able to use cheese tactics.

    mlnevese
  • ShadowlessShadowless Member Posts: 6
    Both, I use BWP to make them compatible
    Both without a doubt, I honestly have difficulty playing the base game without improved AI, there's a lets play BWP by Vorgen on the somethingawful forums that can say what I mean so here's a battle rundown from it

    We charge in and engage the hostiles. The xvart shamans cast a bless on themselves, and then try to cast Doom upon me.
    It hits, and I feel a sinking feeling in my stomach. But I respond with Horror, giving a sinking and panicked feeling to many stomachs, including the shaman that doomed me.
    A moment later, though, his co-shaman Silences me. It is time for staff work only.
    I retreat to be by Minsc's side for this. The remaining xvart shaman is no fool, though. He casts Resist Fear on his cohorts, calming their hearts and removing their fear. Even though they are still scattered about the area in a panicked tangle, the panic itself is now gone.

    Gameplay note: See how appropriately NPC mages and clerics respond to situations now? You would never see such intelligence in a normal game. Cast one Fear, and the whole fight is over. But now with all these mods you cast Fear, the shaman casts Resist Fear, and the fight goes on. He also easily shut me down with a Silence. Incredibly appropriate to the situation. I'm lovin' it!

    You just can't get that can't of challenging and intelligent fun in the base game.

    Brudemtyler11syllogAkuro
  • BugratBugrat Member Posts: 114
    edited September 2012
    SCS
    I really like and always use Sword Coast Stratagems but I also have no idea what BP is.

    Brude
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,693
    Both, I use BWP to make them compatible
    @Bugrat Big Picture. It's, among other things an improved AI as SCS.

  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,326
    Where's my option for aTWEAKS?

    Demivrgvs
  • killeahkilleah Member Posts: 124
    BP
    when it came to mods I always fancied the BP scripts, they did the job well

  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,693
    Both, I use BWP to make them compatible
    @AndreaColombo sorry shouldn't make polls when nearly sleeping on keyboard :)

    AndreaColombo
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,761
    Neither, none of them works with my release of the game somehow.

  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,693
    edited September 2012
    Both, I use BWP to make them compatible
    Have you tried updating the game and applying the fixpacks?

  • BrudeBrude Member Posts: 560
    SCS

    Gameplay note: See how appropriately NPC mages and clerics respond to situations now? You would never see such intelligence in a normal game. Cast one Fear, and the whole fight is over. But now with all these mods you cast Fear, the shaman casts Resist Fear, and the fight goes on. He also easily shut me down with a Silence. Incredibly appropriate to the situation. I'm lovin' it!

    You just can't get that can't of challenging and intelligent fun in the base game.

    I really enjoyed the "Dark Kobolds" component of SCS. Made the Nashkel Mines run ten times more engaging.

    Towards the end, after killing all his companions, I'm almost *positive* that the Chieftan intentionally backed up and tried to kite my party over the traps in the floor. The little stinker. :-D

    Blackraven
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,761
    @mlnevese
    Yes. Problem is, my release of the game is supposed to be patched, and yet, SCS installator doesn't recognize it as such. It just won't install.

    On the other hand, that's one of reasons I wait for BG:EE. When modders will make SCS combatible with BG:EE, then I wouldn't have to worry about release version.

  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,693
    edited September 2012
    Both, I use BWP to make them compatible
    @ZelgadisGW That's strange I sometimes have problems with BP failing to install its main component because I messed something in my install, but never had it happen with SCS. Did you try to use BWP to install?

    Post edited by mlnevese on
  • ArdanisArdanis Member Posts: 1,691
    SCS
    The order of things changes over time. First there was Tactics in the AI field, then BP, then SCS.

  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,761
    @mlnevese
    I never tried that. It's a little matter now - I've planning nearest BG playthrought when Enhanced Edition comes out.

  • KerozevokKerozevok Member Posts: 695
    The AI is enhanced with BP ?... I had thought it was just a compilation (TDD and others).

  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,693
    Both, I use BWP to make them compatible
    @Kerozevok BP = Big Bicture. I think you're thinking about BWP Big World Project

  • KerozevokKerozevok Member Posts: 695
    @mlnevese You're right, but the descriptions for these mods are not very explicit :

    BP : This is a compatibility mod that allows to integrate most of the currently existing large mods (...).

    BWP : it is an ongoing project that aims to bring together as much mods as possible into one complete big Baldurs Gate game (...).

    mlnevese
  • DavidWDavidW Member Posts: 729
    edited September 2012
    SCS
    I voted so I could see the votes, but arguably I don't count as objective :)

    @Kerozevok: BP was originally a compilation project to bring together three mega-mods (Darkest Day, Shadows over Soubar, Tortured Souls? - not sure, I don't play megamods). It goes back to the dark days before the WEIDU modding tool, when making any two mods compatible required explicit coding. In the process of writing it, it also acquired an AI component. Its original purpose is basically moot now - pretty much all the megamods have been converted to WEIDU - so the AI core remains, but with a rather misleading name.

    @ZelgadisGW: SCS really shouldn't be smart enough to check if your game is patched, so I don't think that can quite be the bug you're getting. This probably isn't the right place to help but if you post whatever error report you get at gibberlings3.net, I can possibly help.

    Kerozevoksyllog
  • KerozevokKerozevok Member Posts: 695
    @DavidW Thanks for the explanation.

    For the poll.. none of these options, i liked the vanilla AI when i discovered the game, but now, the game seems to me too easy... I respect the work of DavidW, but i made myself the scripts and various changes for the fun.

    mlnevese
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,338
    SCS
    I've found SCS to be a great addition. It's not unusual that the way it makes enemy mages play is similar to how I feel a human opponent might attempt to play them, right down to running away from melee players in the downtime between spellcasts. It's still possible to cheese it, but unless you go out of your way to do so, the illusion holds up quite well.

    By contrast, going back to unmodded AI and realizing that vanilla enemy casters usually don't seem to manage even vocalizing when you silence them can make the game feel that much more artificial and limited.

    BrudeAnton
  • ARKdeEREHARKdeEREH Member Posts: 531
    SCS
    I don't really know anything about BP, but I like SCS (combined with the "insane" skill level) because I like to keep playing through the game with the same characters and it wouldn't really be challenging anymore without it. With SCS my PC and Viconia can both have 300+ health and other high stats as the result of their multiple playthroughs together and the game will still be difficult. The enormous drow army in Ust Natha, for example, was very hard to completely defeat, but wouldn't have existed at all without SCS.

  • horredtheplaguehorredtheplague Member, Developer Posts: 178
    BP
    Naturally, like David Wallace, my vote is biased too. Both are nice works IMO, with the main differences between them in approach and underlying theory. David did a great job on SCS/II with the script installation--light years ahead of BP's clunky old ways.

    Was less surprised by the poll results, than by how few people have heard of BP. It just recently celebrated its 10th birthday as a mod, after all. For at least seven of those years, since my first-draft conversions of the TeamBG "big mods" to weidu format, it's been solely an AI/enhancement mod. I guess that's my own fault for "retiring" from IE modding in 2006--lack of promotion and regular updates.

    We'll see if that can be changed in the present/future, as I slowly bring BP into the modern era and apply what I've learned over the last six years from my other works. I wouldn't expect less than a major overhaul to make it compatible with BG:EE/BG2:EE, and much that I did to patch the vanilla content might now be redundant. Even some of the strategic nuances I added might prove unneeded. If so, that means I can concentrate more on new content and less on AI and game/rule fixes. We'll see as the saga unfolds... :)

    mlnevesesyllogAbeldomeplsffs
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,394
    horred! Wow, BGEE really is turning out all us oldtimers.

    albinocobra
  • horredtheplaguehorredtheplague Member, Developer Posts: 178
    BP
    --Rust never sleeps, my old friend. :)

  • syllogsyllog Member Posts: 158
    edited December 2013
    SCS
    Demivrgvs said:

    Despite my love for SCS (I cannot play without it) I think the base game should not use SCS scripts (in fact afaik it won't). BGEE should simply limit itself to relatively small improvements over vanilla's scripts.

    @Demivrgvs
    I don't know, I think:
    (a) smarter AI --> more player immersion
    (b) there's still a difficulty slider
    [cp: easy levels don't mod spells much; easier should reduce avg. caster level and restrict spells]
    (c) most players don't know about scs, etc. and hence miss out

    Also, @Demivrgvs :
    I just wanted to say 'cool stuff' on the Spell Revisions mod and getting it ~scs integrated. I'd argue about some specific changes -- but definitely a community service with some neat ideas-Thanks! :)

    (actually: how hard is it to extract the files to play with without loading the mod; I'd love to work on some myself?)

  • syllogsyllog Member Posts: 158
    SCS
    @horredtheplague
    Serious suggestion : if you release an updated BP mod that's just ai / strategic enhancmenets/changes : Change the name.
    It sounds like a resolution mod.
    Too much info in the world (and especially these forums).
    The unobvious goes unnoticed, etc., etc. :)

  • horredtheplaguehorredtheplague Member, Developer Posts: 178
    BP
    syllog said:

    @horredtheplague
    Serious suggestion : if you release an updated BP mod that's just ai / strategic enhancmenets/changes : Change the name.
    It sounds like a resolution mod.
    Too much info in the world (and especially these forums).
    The unobvious goes unnoticed, etc., etc. :)


    Fret not, I have no current plans to officially update this old mod for BG2EE (though it seems to work fine with it already). The name will remain as it has from 2002. It's been strictly an AI/enhancement mod since 2005, so while I understand your point I fail to see the problem. This is the very first posted suggestion of this nature in all of these years.

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