Is no-arcane magic playthrough possible?

Moonheart

BG2 is known for the predominance of magic, and more than anything, the arcane magic.

There is almost no strategy known for many fight that doesn't use wizard spells, even in the vanilla version of the game. You can do without a thief, without a warrior, without a cleric, but you can't do without a wizard, to at least someone acting like a wizard with scrolls.

So I was asking myself: is a playthrough not using arcane spells at all, no matter the source, is possible?



The character who need the less to ressort to arcane magic is currently the monk, for a simple reason: magic resistance supply for the lack of protection spells in many cases.
However, the monk takes have to reach the level 14 before it magic resistance appears, so I don't feel it's enough for an no-arcane magic run.

Another thought would be to recruit Viconia really early, and hunt for MR items as a priority, while the protagonist hides himself in the shadows to avoid to be targeted by spells.
It would buy time for the monk protagonist to build it's magic resistance, if Viconia can be made sturdy enough to solo the encounters for all the 3-4 first chapters of the game

But it remains some problems:
- some spells or abilities are not affected by MR and are deadly if they succeed.
It there a way to actually counter them without arcane magic?
- is there enough MR items to make a monk protagonist and viconia reach 100% MR?
- can Viconia solo the major part of the first chapters?

Osigold

It's an interesting proposition, it'd make a good subject for a Let's Play. Wizard Slayer or Inquisitor could make interesting protagonists, too.

ithildurnew

Sure. People have even done no reload runs without arcane magic (though you may have to define what constitutes 'no matter the source'- potions of haste or boots of speed for example where arcane magic was certainly involved in the creation of an item, etc ).

That's vanilla BG; once you add mods like SCS into the picture it becomes a little different... but should still possible. Whether it's fun or not is a separate matter; seems a bit arbitrary to eliminate only 'arcane useage' (vs cleric spells or say, potions of healing or freedom or wands of the heavens etc).

Nuin

I've followed the progress of a plain fighter who soloed BG2 modded with Tactics and Ascension. It's very possible as long as you can use arcane magic indirectly from items, as @ithildurnew points out.

Even with zero arcane magic support from spells/items a druid or fighter/cleric can still solo the game pretty easily.
How powerful Viconia is depends on your PC. A PC that requires less XP to get to level 13 (like a rogue or a druid) can get her level 13 version to spawn very early. That means you can have a caster that can summon Aerial Servants and cast spells like Blade Barrier, Harm and Heal long before you even reach Chapter 3. Cernd is the same.

People have also soloed the game with a Monk.

For the record, it's not just arcane magic that's pretty powerful in BG2. There's a reason people like having Jaheira around and why the Ranger/Cleric (or the original version of the multiclass, at least) is considered one of the strongest classes.

Arunsun

Soloing the game as a Monk as rather doable, though early game might be painful. But once you get a bit of exp it becomes a piece of cake.
I've soloed it as a barbarian (tank-oriented with DoE etc...) and if you avoid all but the mandatory mage fights it is quite easy to do actually. I did use improved haste from items but I could have done the same without that.
As an inquisitor, it is doable. And if you do not consider spells from items to be arcane magic, well you can go for the Slayer trick and destroy everything easily as an inquisitor.
I've never soloed as a berzerker but it should be ok as well.

And if you can solo with these classes, well it should be doable with a party.

Neverused

@Alesia_BH managed to get a trilogy no-reload success in SCS + Ascension with a solo Halfling Barbarian, recorded somewhere on the Bioware forum, so there's that. On Vanilla, I think @Grond0 has at least a solo Wizard Slayer trilogy no-reload success as well to his name there, and that's essentially a no-magic-at-all run, not even potions.

@Arunsun actually... Solo working does not necessarily imply that they'd do well in a party. The reason for this is saving throws and equipment: it's relatively easy to get one character immune to a fight. It's much harder getting everyone immune for said fight without wasting incredible amounts of consumables. There's only one DoE, after all, and only one Cloak of Mirroring, and only so many Protection from X spells lying around.

However... Corey_Russell, also on the Bioware forums, has a no-reload party run, no arcane magic (or very, very little) in his 5 Paladin + C/T setup. The thief part may've used arcane scrolls after UAI, but I'm unable to remember and frankly too tired right now to find out.

Arunsun

@Neverused I simply meant that if a non-arcane playthrough is possible on a solo game, a party one must be doable as well. And when you are a party, you do not actually need to make everyone "immune to a fight" as you say. You just need one or two frontliner to tank up for a while.

semiticgoddess

@Arunsun: Any class that can beat the game as a solo character can beat the game as a party of six. Cutting your XP per character down to 1/6 is worth sextupling your APR and HP. A party of Barbarians or Berserkers, with an Inquisitor or two at the back, would be more than capable of taking on even a high-difficulty no-reload game, if not Nightmare mode or Improved Anvil.

Mages are stronger than most builds, but not by so much that they are a requirement for success.

Moonheart

ithildurnew said:

Sure. People have even done no reload runs without arcane magic (though you may have to define what constitutes 'no matter the source'- potions of haste or boots of speed for example where arcane magic was certainly involved in the creation of an item, etc )

Mostly, I would like a run that get rid of every arcane magic cast-like actions.
Permanant bonuses from items doesn't bother me, but potions, scrolls, trinkets and spells would be banned.

On a larger topic, I could extend this to all kind of magic, but I thought it could be a bit too hard. Seems some people already proved it is not.



I now wonder if I could find something orginal to do such a run.
The idea of an anti-magic melee character have been on my mind on sometimes, on the basis of "100% magic resist + carsomyr's dispel on hit"

Alas, paladins can't reach 100% MR, so it is needed to take a thief class to get UAI as an epic feat, and try to optimize from this base to get the 50% MR needed to complete 50% from Carsomyr... which is not an easy topic.

Jaheiras_Witness

No arcane magic is a doddle for vanilla BG2 no-reload, I've done it with pure warriors many times.

It's much more difficult with SCS, not so much for the spell (magic) resistances, but for the weapon resistances. Essentially there are certain fights in SCS which are near-impossible without Protection from Magical Weapons. The clearest one is Bodhi - if you end up in melee, she will hit you irrespective of your AC and drain CON if you are immune to level drain. At 5 CON per hit, you die in 1 round and there is no way to avoid the CON drain other than PfMW.

lunar

I never played with that con drain, it feels extremely unfair and cheesy. To drain con, IMHO a vampire should be drinking blood, not feasible in melee combat unless the victim is immobilised or charmed first. Energy drain is different, vampires drain levels via touch or hit, because of their connection to negative plane.

Moonheart

I've think about this twice, and I don't feel like the arcane magic is the true problem.
It exist on tabletop games, and was never nearly as broken as it is in D&D video games.

I feel the problem is coming from the rest mechanic instead. You just can rest too easily in those games, resulting in an endless flow of magic, where magic is concieved in D&D like a power to be used with parcimony, due to being hard to recover.

I naturaly breaks everything in the balance as a result.
That and immunity items. Seriously, I never seen an immunity item on any of my games on table once. And I see a constant flow of it into BG2.

When you don't have an Amulet of Power and can't cast anti-level drain buff on the whole party at will, the vampire level drain sudently seems more balanced, and don't need to be a CON drain in addition to provide some challenge.


So, well, I'll change my projects into making a "no rest in contested areas" playthough someday, instead of a no-arcane magic playthrough.

Thanks for your answers neverless, they had been interesting

DevardKrown

Moonheart said:

I've think about this twice, and I don't feel like the arcane magic is the true problem.
It exist on tabletop games, and was never nearly as broken as it is in D&D video games.

I feel the problem is coming from the rest mechanic instead. You just can rest too easily in those games, resulting in an endless flow of magic, where magic is concieved in D&D like a power to be used with parcimony, due to being hard to recover.

I naturaly breaks everything in the balance as a result.
That and immunity items. Seriously, I never seen an immunity item on any of my games on table once. And I see a constant flow of it into BG2.

When you don't have an Amulet of Power and can't cast anti-level drain buff on the whole party at will, the vampire level drain sudently seems more balanced, and don't need to be a CON drain in addition to provide some challenge.


So, well, I'll change my projects into making a "no rest in contested areas" playthough someday, instead of a no-arcane magic playthrough.

Thanks for your answers neverless, they had been interesting

resting mechanic almost kills every D&D game , Baldurs gate , click 8 hours rested all spells memorized , people healed up, sometimes i just rest because im too lazy to heal people by hand because why fiddle around a minute or two to heal them if a buttonsmash can do it. , NWN1+2 , click , take a knee 5 seconds and your good again.

what would really balance it would be a Diminished resting mechanic , like you only fully recover Arcane and Divine spells in a INN/Tavern/Save Place where your Mages properly can sit down and re memorize their magic , and Cleric can do proper ceremonies to praise their gods.

While using Rest in the Free World would only Restore like 2-3 Spells of every slot considering some have to stay Guard , the weather maybe Bad and overall sleeping on the Road is way Less resting then a roof over your head.

And to add the the Worst Scenario , resting in a Dungeon may only Recover a Single spell of every level, because there you need more than one guard , the place reeks of danger and no one sleeps really tight there all in all its a crap idea to stay there int he first Place.

then add a "Rest-stacks" mechanic who grant you one rest every 24 Hours , with a maximum of 3 Stacks and suddenly that trip to the INN sounds way more Appealing than staring at a Dungeon floor while sleeping.

ifupauline

I believe fighter/cleric is a well known class that would easily solo the game without resorting to arcane magic.