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Are monks worth a damn in ToB?

MMMMKMMMMK Member Posts: 30
in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
I've been kicking around the idea of running a monk through ToB but I've done several variations on melee fighters before and it's hard to see what the monk actually contributes against the end-game monsters. He can't benefit from Improved Haste so he is mostly relying on Whirlwind, many enemies cannot be stunned (and things like the Celestial Fury make the monk's stunning pretty obsolete) and his quivering palm, which is super cool in theory, is a lot less shiny when there are already several vorpal weapons to pick from in ToB.

Am I missing anything? His magic resistance is good but magic damage has rarely been an issue for me, even in Ascension/SCS.

Thanks

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Comments

  • MMMMKMMMMK Member Posts: 30
    Hmm, monk fists are good weapons (although they can't hit +4 in the vanilla game iirc) but they are stuck at 4 APR unless they use Whirlwind. I mean, if you want to deal out tons of melee damage it's hard to imagine something better than, say, Korgan with 10 apr, 25 strength (from Crom Faer) with every hit a critical (so double damage against most enemies).

    So that leaves the monk with just their stunning fist, quivering palm, and good MR to make up the difference. I want to like the monk but I just don't see how they can really fit into a party.
  • TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    edited February 2016
    Korgan can't get nearly as much MR as a monk and there's nothing wrong with using Whirlwind if you want 10 attacks per round. In my opinion being able to tank damage is more valuable than dealing it as a melee fighter in ToB anyways and the monk's massive AC and basically becoming immune to spells is a huge asset. You also have to consider that the monk levels faster than any other fighter due to using the cleric's exp table.
  • AerakarAerakar Member Posts: 1,053
    I enjoyed a monk run once. In the end he was like a whirling flying fist of death, not as fun as monks were in NWN, but fun nonetheless. The class does not seem very popular though. the Dark Moon monk looks fun and may think about trying it out after I complete my current Assassin Elf run (still in BG1...).
  • PteranPteran Member Posts: 388
    edited March 2016
    Pantalion said:

    * Equip the Scarlet Ninjato in your offhand at an early level.

    * Never unequip it until level 18, when you have 4 APR naturally, and even then you probably should keep it for a fifth APR which poisons through stoneskins. Equip Fire Giant's Belt. 22 Strength fists deal 98 damage per round.

    [SNIP]

    * Your Quivering Palm bypasses stoneskins, as does your stunning blow to crowd control annoying targets (save or stun four times in a single round or get wrecked).

    [SNIP]

    * Use Gargoyle Boots to get stoneskins. Keep the mirror image shortsword and use it in tough fights. Don't bother trying to tank, just enjoy the added survivability in melee.

    You sir just changed the way I look at monks. Been playing 15+ years and never knew you could equip solely the off-hand. I always wondered what the point of that Ninjato was...

    I never thought about the Quivering Palm and Stunning Blow hitting through Stoneskins like elemental damage does. Nor did I think to use the boots or sword as a one-off to get Stoneskin or Mirror Image =/

    I'm tempted to make a run as a DMM (still haven't tried either kit) and bring along Rasaad to see them both.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited March 2016
    I never saw the point of glorifying MR on a PC. The game gives you plenty of ways to deal with magical attacks, like various buff spells/items like the Cloak of Mirroring/etc.

    As someone pointed out, the main thing about monks is that their fists do massive crushing damage. Monk fists do 1-20 base damage at higher levels. For the sake of comparison, a two-handed sword does 1-12 base damage. Note that you can use strength belts/potions to increase your strength, there's even one that raises your strength to 24 - perfect for those boss fights.
    Anyway monks also have incredibly high movement speed (even without Haste) and can use stealth. High level monks have no problem getting in/out of melee range or running in/out of combat to abuse stealth.
    Overall, Monks make ideal scouts, assassins or skirmisher-type characters.

    Besides early game, the problem with monks is that monk movement speed can get addictive. You'll likely end up just parking your party mates under a rock somewhere while you play catch-me-if-you-can-while-I-hit-you-for-30-damage-per-strike with your enemies. Standard fare with gear like strength belts and the Gauntlets of Crushing.

    BTW monk unarmed strikes have extended reach, like most two-handed weapons. Keeping them alive is easy if you have a tank like Jaheira.
    Post edited by Nuin on
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    edited March 2016
    Great stuff! Going to give Raasad the scarlet ninjato in my next run.

    Does the Thaco penalty hurt though? I suppose the cloak you can get in his quest could help somewhat...
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    It does hurt a lot indeed since you cannot even get a pip in two-weapons.
    Scarlet Ninja-to is just not that good even just off hand as long as your Thac0 is not good. But once you get the monk gloves in the city of cavern you can equip it (or any other weapon) because for some reason the gloves also gives the thac0 bonus to your offhand if your main hand is your fists.

    For the rest of your comment, well, I have played monk quite a lot, both solo and in a party, and it really works till the end of ToB:
    In the end, a monk has a natural 78MR. Combined with Ring of Gaxx, hell trials, and the Machine of Lum the Mad, you get 103 MR, basically immune to magic.
    Once full stuff with 18 dex, you can have a permanent -17AC. If playing a Dark Moon Monk, which is allegedly the best monk, you can get -20 with their innate cast of blur. You can complement that with a belt of specific AC and Mirror Image and even ToB enemies will have a hard time hitting you.
    As for the damage output, well, it is very good.
    Two cases: you have played BG1 and used STR tome on your PC. You can then get a natural 22 STR (18base+1 tome+2 hells+1 Machine) and get to 25 through the Headband Righteous magic. In this case, with Righteous magic active you will have a base 4 APR, 43 damage per hit (can be further improved with the Frozen fist ability that adds 2 cold damage per hit and stacks with itself). Thac0 is -16 (I believe the lowest enemy AC is -12 which means you will hit every enemy every hit except of course on a 1)
    If you haven't given the STR tome to your character, you can either wield Angurvadal+5 in offhand (22str) and complement to 25 with Righteous magic, use a belt (though AC belt come handy in my opinion), or have 1 less STR (which is 1less damage per hit unbuffed, and 2 less once buffed). I usually take the Angurvadal option.

    As for the small adjustments that can be made:
    You can equip another headgear once you have cast righteous magic. With the appropriate gear you gain one AC point and lose 1Thac0/Damage (from the permanent bless effect).
    You may also consider taking the evil path on the trial that gives either MR or AC. With the amulet of the Seldarine you can still get 103 MR, but you gain an additionnal -2AC which gets you to -22 once buffed (or -23 if you switch hats as well). The cap with 18 dex is -24.

    What I call full stuff is:
    Gauntlet of Crushing
    Headband of the Devout
    Amulet of Sensate/Amulet of the Seldarine
    Ring of protection+3
    Ring of Gaxx
    Cloak of the Dark Moon
    Night walkers
    Belt of specific AC
    (Angurvadal off hand if you want it)

    If, for some reason, you decide to dual wield, remember that your fists deal much more, thus when you use Whirlwind you should unequip your offhand weapon.
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Grum said:

    Great stuff! Going to give Raasad the scarlet ninjato in my next run.

    Does the Thaco penalty hurt though? I suppose the cloak you can get in his quest could help somewhat...

    Unless they changed/fixed it, at some point your monk fist will become a two handed weapon. This won't matter so long as you do not die, but it does rather interfere with your ability to apply late game weapons, so make your pick early (something with nice immunities is another viable alternative but you'll be sacrificing early game APR)

    As for the penalty, you're a full THAC0 progression class on Cleric Exp progression. By the SoA cap you have 0 THAC0. With the penalties that's 4 / 8 to hit, which is beyond plentiful for a lowly peon, especially one that's targeting things like mages (and if you're feeling sad in other fights with no mage to punch, just get the party mage to Improved Invisibility you for +4 to hit again).
  • AerakarAerakar Member Posts: 1,053
    Did anyone else prefer the old BG2 monk sprites besides me? I also wish there was a no hair option. Pale yellow is still not bald!
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    edited March 2016
    Arunsun said:

    It does hurt a lot indeed since you cannot even get a pip in two-weapons.
    Scarlet Ninja-to is just not that good even just off hand as long as your Thac0 is not good.

    As with other MH/OH combinations, a +APR offhand will always be inherently superior to any other offhand in terms of pure per-hit damage. The only competition comes from weapons that increase STR; whether those are better depends on a number of factors (e.g. your base STR).

    Note that it is largely irrelevant how well your offhand hits. Sure, more is better, but even at 0 damage (target immune to OH's damage) it is better to use a +APR offhand than some other offhand that just deals more damage/has a higher enchantment level.

    That is, of course, assuming that monk fists work like a MH weapon and that you don't have two fists "equipped" while not wielding any weapons. I'm not sure about that since it's been literal years since I last played a Monk, but it would surprise me if it was the case.
    Pteran said:

    Been playing 15+ years and never knew you could equip solely the off-hand.

    I'm not 100% certain but I think you could not in fact do that before the EE. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, for the past is dark and full of errors.
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Lord_Tansheron said:


    Pteran said:

    Been playing 15+ years and never knew you could equip solely the off-hand.

    I'm not 100% certain but I think you could not in fact do that before the EE. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, for the past is dark and full of errors.
    New in EE for monks (anyone else can equip the offhand only in case of PfMW, in which case they do a decent job punching mages in the face with their non-magical fists), and doesn't apply to higher level fists, which are still two handed weapons. Bizarrely.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Pantalion said:

    doesn't apply to higher level fists, which are still two handed weapons. Bizarrely.

    Smells like a bug. No logical reason for this, and SNT is literally *made* for Monks specifically.

    Maybe I'll give Monk another try some day. The whole can't-be-hasted thing always put me off, but now with the SR mod IH doesn't double my APR anyway, so... might be worth a shot.
  • MoonheartMoonheart Member Posts: 520
    edited March 2016
    Nuin said:

    I never saw the point of glorifying MR on a PC. The game gives you plenty of ways to deal with magical attacks, like various buff spells/items like the Cloak of Mirroring/etc.

    Well... I do.
    The MR is the same deal that the Rage ability of the Berzerker: it just counter 90% of the magical crowd control of the game, in a single bundle, making you have a LOT less to care about.

    That's like... removing 70-80% of the difficulty of the game. Once it reaches 100% it becomes a true game-breaker
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    Lord_Tansheron said:

    Arunsun said:

    It does hurt a lot indeed since you cannot even get a pip in two-weapons.
    Scarlet Ninja-to is just not that good even just off hand as long as your Thac0 is not good.

    As with other MH/OH combinations, a +APR offhand will always be inherently superior to any other offhand in terms of pure per-hit damage. The only competition comes from weapons that increase STR; whether those are better depends on a number of factors (e.g. your base STR).

    Note that it is largely irrelevant how well your offhand hits. Sure, more is better, but even at 0 damage (target immune to OH's damage) it is better to use a +APR offhand than some other offhand that just deals more damage/has a higher enchantment level.

    That is, of course, assuming that monk fists work like a MH weapon and that you don't have two fists "equipped" while not wielding any weapons. I'm not sure about that since it's been literal years since I last played a Monk, but it would surprise me if it was the case
    It is not 100% true. Usually, when you dual wield, you do it with classes that can put pips in two weapon fighting. Wielding an offhand weapon with no pips is indeed a +8 thac0 malus on offhand, but it is as well a +4Thac0 malus on mainhand. Which means that even with the additionnal APR it might lower your damage output. Yes, Scarlet Ninja-To is better than any other offhand weapon (except STR ones occasionally) but on a monk, it can actually lower your damage output if your Thac0 is not good enough. It's worth noting as well that from level 18 on, any offhand weapon gives you the 5APR (which is the cap without Haste) since you have 4 in main hand, and in that case, any weapon that is better than SNT (without the extra APR) is better offhand.
    Overall SNT is not that good on a monk because:
    Early on your Thac0 is not good enough for it to prove useful or better than using your fists only.
    Past level 18 it's straight off less good than most magical weapons you can get.

    That's, in the end, a short exp range during which SNT is actually useful.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Arunsun said:

    It is not 100% true. Usually, when you dual wield, you do it with classes that can put pips in two weapon fighting. Wielding an offhand weapon with no pips is indeed a +8 thac0 malus on offhand, but it is as well a +4Thac0 malus on mainhand.

    Yes, this is a good point. Special for Monks I suppose due to no weapon style. Considering their high fist damage and decent THAC0 progression, SNT is probably still optimal, but it's a lot less obvious.

    Thanks for pointing that out! I really need to work on Monks a bit, the concept has always intrigued me.
    Arunsun said:

    It's worth noting as well that from level 18 on, any offhand weapon gives you the 5APR (which is the cap without Haste) since you have 4 in main hand, and in that case, any weapon that is better than SNT (without the extra APR) is better offhand.

    It was mentioned earlier that at higher levels, Fists revert back to being a 2h weapon anyway, making OH moot. Is that not the case? I really don't know and I'm at work atm so I can't check myself.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    Lord_Tansheron said:


    It was mentioned earlier that at higher levels, Fists revert back to being a 2h weapon anyway, making OH moot. Is that not the case? I really don't know and I'm at work atm so I can't check myself.

    I'm not too sure I get your meaning, but I just tested on a max level monk and:
    With no offhand weapon equipped I have 4APR
    I can equip an offhand weapon, and if I do, I get 5APR (4 from my fist, 1 from offhand). I guess that means Fists are still considered one-handed.
  • luskanluskan Member Posts: 269
    Is it better to play as a kit or as a pure monk if it's for a solo trilogy run?
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    edited March 2016
    Well, that certainly answer some things. Very interesting.

    Am I right in assuming that the enchantment level progression of the Fists also adds a static damage bonus? I.e. that a +4 Fist (lvl 25+) deals 1d20+4 damage and not just 1d20 with a +4 enchantment check? What about THAC0 bonus?
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    luskan said:

    Is it better to play as a kit or as a pure monk if it's for a solo trilogy run?

    Kits are straight-off better than pure monks, that's quite sure in my opinion. And I would say that the Dark Moon Monk is better than Sun Soul Monk, which is obvious lategame, though it Sun Soul might be better early on.
    Lord_Tansheron said:

    Well, that certainly answer some things. Very interesting.

    Am I right in assuming that the enchantment level progression of the Fists also adds a static damage bonus? I.e. that a +4 Fist (lvl 25+) deals 1d20+4 damage and not just 1d20 with a +4 enchantment check? What about THAC0 bonus?

    It deals 1d20+4, with a +4 enchantment, and a -4THAC0 bonus.
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Hm. It might be specific to a single type/level of fist weapon then, because I know I had Rasaad with the Scarlet Ninjato, he died, then could never reequip in his offhand because "two-handed weapon equipped".
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited March 2016
    Moonheart said:


    Well... I do.
    The MR is the same deal that the Rage ability of the Berzerker: it just counter 90% of the magical crowd control of the game, in a single bundle, making you have a LOT less to care about.

    That's like... removing 70-80% of the difficulty of the game. Once it reaches 100% it becomes a true game-breaker

    Physical attacks are what's really dangerous in the game, and one of the reasons mages are so powerful is that they get spells like Stoneskin and Protection from Magical Weapons to counter it.

    Against magic you have a TON of options, from scrolls of protection from magic, to the cloak of mirroring, to the belt of inertial barrier, to DOZENS of protection potions, to gear that provides immunity to various status effects, to the cloak of the sewers (jelly MR).

    Meanwhile if a dragon, or just about anything from a difficulty mod fight, decides to go after the squishy character with no stoneskins/protection from magical weapons/etc., that character is screwed. Perhaps not completely because of things like the gargoyle boots or Ras, but still. You are at a severe disadvantage.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Nuin said:

    Physical attacks are what's really dangerous in the game

    I've always found magic to be the only dangerous thing. Sure, physical damage might be what actually kills you, but only because you've been stunned/paralyzed/otherwise disabled by a spell. Heck, you can even just take back three steps and you're out of most physical damage; with spells, it's more complicated.

    That's not to say that MR is an I-Win-Button by any means, but in BG2 at least the bad, nasty spell effects are what give you a hard time. Things beating on your head are easy.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    I rarely have trouble with disables. Arbane's Sword alone protects you from Stun/Hold/Paralyzation, and there are counters for everything else.
    Party-wise, the one with status effect immunity always has Remove Magic ready just in case.
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    I'm with the Lord, Power Word: Walk renders the vast majority of high damage melee critters impotent, while getting unlucky with a saving throw can ruin your party's whole day. Yes, options exist for magic, but kiting is so simple even Lowly Peons can do it.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    Pantalion said:

    Hm. It might be specific to a single type/level of fist weapon then, because I know I had Rasaad with the Scarlet Ninjato, he died, then could never reequip in his offhand because "two-handed weapon equipped".

    It must be a bug. If you can reproduct that I suggest you make a bug report thread.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    You people are odd.
    Of the hundreds of runs I've seen over the last decade MR was a factor in maybe a dozen of them. But so far I've seen a grand total of zero runs which did not rely on physical damage protection of some kind (Toughness, Stone/Ironskins, PmfW, Invisibility/Sanctuary, etc)
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