Advice needed for the first lvl 7 Sorcerer spells (group)
My Sorcerer is lvl 15 and I can't make up my mind about which spell to pick first. The ''must have'' spell lists I've seen vary a lot with the exception of a few spells like Breach, the Horrid something at lvl 8 and Time Stop.
I've tried out most spells and loaded back to the spell selection. I'm running a full party (Anomen, Keldorn, Jaheira, Yoshimo, Aerie) and plan to replace Yoshimo with Imoen later on. This means that I'd end up with 3 characters that can cast mage spells so I can keep some utility on the other 2.
Here are my thoughts so far:
-Prismatic Spray seems interesting on paper but very unreliable and people said that if mobs disintegrate, you lose their loot so I'm not sure how interested I am in this one.
-There are many summons. The one that drains spells on attack might be interesting for long and difficult fights but very situational. Mordenkainen's Sword seems alright but 2 of them took forever to land hits onto Anomen with -7 AC, I'm afraid that they would miss almost every attacks and mostly just be there for a body block.
-I don't think that I want to start with a defensive spell, especially when my Sorc is in the backline (if I was soloing, it'd be completely different) as I don't think I'll get much out of it for now.
-Project Image might be nice for very difficult and very occasional fights. I'll grab it but maybe not as the first one. Is there a way to cancel it out after you're done the fight or do you have to wait it out?
-Sphere of Chaos too unreliable and might buff enemies or get rid of some items I'd want.
-Delayed Fireball seems to be like some sort of weaker Skull Trap in the long run.
-Limited Wish is a must have I believe BUT I only have 14 charisma on my Sorcerer so I'm not sure if it's reliable. I don't feel like I really run out of spells, even after killing the red dragon so far so I might need it later on. Is there a way to make it more reliable or it just won't be good on a character with 14 wisdom?
So I'm mostly hesitating between:
-Finger of Death seems a bit boring.. not a big fan of the monster instantly dying or almost nothing happening but I still consider it.
-Khelben's Warding Whip/Ruby Ray of Reversal. Not sure which is better, the first one seems more fun and more useful but if I already have Breach on Charname and Spell Pierce I believe it's called (lvl6 spell on Aerie), I think that I read that Spell Pierce and RRoR are one or the other must have past Breach. If I'm to pick only one, wouldn't RRoR be safer in the long run as it could dispell anything? Aerie also has KWW in her book for once she reaches that level so I think that I might be fine without it for now but perhaps I'm underestimating some of the stronger buffs that need to be dispelled as I haven't really faced them yet (I also just got Carsomyr which might help).
-Spell Sequencer. I want this one for sure (either Greater Malisson+Emotion and a 3rd spell or 3x Skull Traps nuke). The only problem I have with it right now is I feel like if I pick this one for my first spell, it's as if I get 1 extra spell per day instead of 4 so I'm hesitating and thinking that maybe I should wait for the next lvl 7 I can get later on. The nuke is very tempting though.
-Power Word Stun. This is the other main one I'm hesitating about. It seems amazing, no saving throw and reliable. My only concern is that I'm wondering if it'll be good in the long run or if most enemies against who I'd want to use it will simply have over 90hp and be immune to it, making it a valuable wasted spell slot.
I've tried out most spells and loaded back to the spell selection. I'm running a full party (Anomen, Keldorn, Jaheira, Yoshimo, Aerie) and plan to replace Yoshimo with Imoen later on. This means that I'd end up with 3 characters that can cast mage spells so I can keep some utility on the other 2.
Here are my thoughts so far:
-Prismatic Spray seems interesting on paper but very unreliable and people said that if mobs disintegrate, you lose their loot so I'm not sure how interested I am in this one.
-There are many summons. The one that drains spells on attack might be interesting for long and difficult fights but very situational. Mordenkainen's Sword seems alright but 2 of them took forever to land hits onto Anomen with -7 AC, I'm afraid that they would miss almost every attacks and mostly just be there for a body block.
-I don't think that I want to start with a defensive spell, especially when my Sorc is in the backline (if I was soloing, it'd be completely different) as I don't think I'll get much out of it for now.
-Project Image might be nice for very difficult and very occasional fights. I'll grab it but maybe not as the first one. Is there a way to cancel it out after you're done the fight or do you have to wait it out?
-Sphere of Chaos too unreliable and might buff enemies or get rid of some items I'd want.
-Delayed Fireball seems to be like some sort of weaker Skull Trap in the long run.
-Limited Wish is a must have I believe BUT I only have 14 charisma on my Sorcerer so I'm not sure if it's reliable. I don't feel like I really run out of spells, even after killing the red dragon so far so I might need it later on. Is there a way to make it more reliable or it just won't be good on a character with 14 wisdom?
So I'm mostly hesitating between:
-Finger of Death seems a bit boring.. not a big fan of the monster instantly dying or almost nothing happening but I still consider it.
-Khelben's Warding Whip/Ruby Ray of Reversal. Not sure which is better, the first one seems more fun and more useful but if I already have Breach on Charname and Spell Pierce I believe it's called (lvl6 spell on Aerie), I think that I read that Spell Pierce and RRoR are one or the other must have past Breach. If I'm to pick only one, wouldn't RRoR be safer in the long run as it could dispell anything? Aerie also has KWW in her book for once she reaches that level so I think that I might be fine without it for now but perhaps I'm underestimating some of the stronger buffs that need to be dispelled as I haven't really faced them yet (I also just got Carsomyr which might help).
-Spell Sequencer. I want this one for sure (either Greater Malisson+Emotion and a 3rd spell or 3x Skull Traps nuke). The only problem I have with it right now is I feel like if I pick this one for my first spell, it's as if I get 1 extra spell per day instead of 4 so I'm hesitating and thinking that maybe I should wait for the next lvl 7 I can get later on. The nuke is very tempting though.
-Power Word Stun. This is the other main one I'm hesitating about. It seems amazing, no saving throw and reliable. My only concern is that I'm wondering if it'll be good in the long run or if most enemies against who I'd want to use it will simply have over 90hp and be immune to it, making it a valuable wasted spell slot.
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Comments
now for my second one, I always choose finger of death, again you say you don't like it because insta-killing baddies isn't fun in your games, but the reason why I like it is because if you have the mage script "mage aggressive" your mage will automatically cast this spell without you commanding them to do so, plus with that -2 penalty to the save it can work on anybody who isn't immune to death magic
next, I go for mordenkainen's sword, even though at times as you say they might not be able to hit big time baddies ( their to hit is based on your mage level) as @Tresset says, they are virtually indestructible, the only thing that can kill them as far as I know it magical damage, plus they have 30 INT, I don't know about being immune to mind flayer INT drain, but even if they weren't it will still take quite a few hits to bring them down, in my opinion when it comes to summoning spells, this one is the best, just for the fact that I have never seen an enemy be able to destroy them, which makes them very useful at distracting baddies
for the forth one, I go for spell sequencer, even though I never use it, but depending on your play style, chaining up 3 spells of 4 level or lower could be quite killer, offensively or defensively, for offense you could chain up X3 fireballs/lightningbolts/ice storms/magic missile, doing some pretty decent damage when it goes off ( even more so than delayed blast fire ball) or you could ling up mirror image, stoneskin and fireshield, so if your mage is in melee for some reason and is getting a pounding on, this could be a great buff to help you get out, it works on any type of melee attack whether they use magical or non magical attacks, or even something great to use on melee mage type characters if baddies are dispelling your protections you can throw this up right afterwards and keep on fighting
and the last one I choose is either ruby ray of reversal or limited wish
ruby ray: this spell is better than warding whip in my opinion since it will dispel shields that protect mages from spell attacks ( spell turning, spell deflection, spell trap and the like) although my teams are usually more physical attack types the dispelling spell I use more often is breach, but this is the necessary spell your are going to need if you want to dispel mage protections that are protecting themselves from your arcane/divine onslaught
now with limited wish, there is an easy way to use this spell with no muss or fuss if your wisdom is lower, and that is; potions of insight, any temple sells them ( and they usually have like 20 or so) and there are only a select few "one time wishes" that you actually need, most of the "one time wishes" are just level 9 spells, which you will be able to cast at level 18 anyway so you don't need that, but other than that the 3 other useful ones are:
1- wish for a magical item (fullplate +2 that gives you a -1 thac0 pentaly)
2- wish to be rich ( gives you some gems and 2500 gp)
3- wish to go on an adventure like you have never been on before ( as long as you haven't killed dennis this will always be an option, its a bit long winded of a quest but it does give some decent XP in the end)
so in reality you really only need limited wish for one wish, the rest you could get by without and be none the wiser, and wouldn't you know, there is 3 limited wish scrolls in the game, so hey, those 3 one time wishes I listed, there ya go, can do them all via scroll ( which is what I do usually when im a sorcerer as well)
so other than that, I think the rest of the level 7 spells are subpar at best, prismatic spray CAN hit party members ( and it probably will all the time) and for some weird reason at least in the vanilla game, I had a hard time hitting baddies with it
powerword stun is kind of crappy as well, since as you say they have to have less than 90 HP, but who has less than 90 HP that you cant take out in a couple of rounds, and even if they do have less than 90 normally they might be immune or have too much MR are protection against it
sphere of chaos, as you say, to unreliable and plus it will hit team mates as well
all the summon spells ( except for mor. sword) are kind of crappy as well, the level 6 elemental summoning spells are better in my opinion, and also the level 7 monster summoning spells bring in monsters that seem to die kind of quickly ( at least on the hardest difficulty) mor. sword is still my fav for level 7 spells
You can not dispel PI before the time runs out, but if your char takes damage it is dispelled. Another party member can lob a melf minute meteor at you for this purpose.
Chaos sphere does not hit my party in my game. However my game is extremely modded, so I don't know the vanilla behaviour. Still not a good pick, IMHO.
Mordy is the ultimate tank, if an enemy can't cast magic damage or death spells they can not hurt the sword. It has excellent thac0 and damage output, as well.
Finger of death is exceptionally deadly, after a greater malison it can fell many a foe instantly.
My picks would be, PI, Mordy and the finger. Later, ruby ray and maybe spell sequencer. Lvl 8 trigger is so much better and lvl 8 spells kinda suck except Horrid Wilting, so trigger is taken before sequencer most of the time.
However, with Aerie and Imoen in your team, I'd leave the debuffing duties to them. Definitely a must, even nice as a first pick. The possibilities are endless, whether offensive or defensive.
It's nice to have an extra rabbit to pull out of your hat, when things are going tough Must have in my book. First of all, there next to none mages with more than 90HP, and concerning the rest, well, you can get any opponent below 90, and then they vulnerable(except for those with a stun immunity, of course).
I use this spell a lot, you just have to develop a feeling for when to cast it.
Project Image and Limited Wish are must-picks, if you don't have an issue with cheesy methods. Other than that I'd go with Spell Sequencer, Finger of Death, PW:Stun, Mordenkainens Sword, and Spell Turning.
If you're interested I wrote a spell guide (albeit from a solo SCS perspective), link above. My level 7 Sorcerer recommendations were:
Level 7
Definite: Project Image, Ruby Ray Of Reversal, Mordenkainen's Sword
Options: Finger Of Death, Limited Wish, Power Word Stun, Spell Sequencer, Spell Turning
I suggest you to try every spell and see which fits better for your party composition. Then you can remove them with the Keeper.
That's how you learn how to use your Sorcerer. There are spells that despite being good, are simply overshadowed by others.
PS: I would never pick a Limited Wish, that's for sure.
1) 1 x Timestop
2) 1 x Chain Contingency
3) 1 x Shapechange
4) 1 x Wail of the Banshee
So that's 4 great level 9 spells for free from a 7th level spell.
Then you've got:
5) Free Fullplate +2
6) Every member of the party gets a level 1-4 spell rememorised as often as you want (so you trade 1 level 7 spell for up to 24 lower level spells, depending on your party composition - that's an awesome deal
7) Other goodies like free gems and gold, negative plane protection for the whole party, etc
Convinced yet?
Point 5 is not that good since middle BG2, and considering when you can start to cast the spell, well...
I think you misunderstood what point 6 does.
This spell may be ok on a Mage, but not really worth on a Sorcerer, imo.
Also, someone said that Power Word Stun works if the target's current HP drops below 90 but the description says otherwise (it says base hp). Is the description wrong and out of date?
I went with the Sword summon for now cause I guess I can't really go wrong with it and it might be useful to fight vampires soon but the other suggestions are still useful and interesting for my next spells I'll get.
That being said, I'd actually go for Mass Invisibility at some point, since you're a mostly melee composition that would probably adore having +4 to AC, to hit, saves and immunity vs single-target spells for 15 rounds multiple times a day. Warding Whip and RRoR would be more useful without Keldorn, but as it is, his Dispel should be able to get rid of most defensive spells since Spell Immunity: Abjuration is rare without SCS.
Scs gives superiour ai to them, they observe and react, better protect themselves, try to dispel remove your buffs, and try not to waste a single resource/use spells appropriately. There is a randomness in their spell selection as well. They try to kite, cast and attack, and go invisible/flee/heal and react to surprises just like a regular thinking person would do. This makes battles tougher but more satisfactory.
Scs has a lot more other options and countless little tweaks and enchantments that raise the difficulty, and as it is so modular, one can choose among different options and components to customise the game to their tastes. It is a very high quality mod that really can not get enough praise. Although, more difficult options may be a tad harsh for new players.
SCS changes (as an option) how spell protection/and removals work, trying to make a more balanced and sensible system. This heavily affects game play and spell selection, doubly so for sorcs. In vanilla, you only truly need breach. Breach will cut through spell turning/deflection etc and remove stoneskins and whathaveyou from the enemy, leaving it defenseless for warriors to cut into ribbons.
With SCS, all spell protections like spell turning and deflection, affect breach, so you need to 'peel down' those magical defenses from an enemy first, lest your breach gets turned back to you! It gets even more complex once a high lvl enemy uses spell immunity:abjuration to shut down all dispel and spell removal attacks except for ruby ray (which is alteration, and is pretty damn powerful, able to take down si:abjuation, even 9th lvl protection spell trap, khelben's whip can not touch spell trap!!!) so ruby ray gets a boost in scs. All other spell removals also get a boost, suddenly spell thrust is very useful and secret word is mandatory to breach a spell turning enemy. SCS also makes those spell removals area-effect like so they can target improved invisible foes. Enemies also recognise these rule tweaks and play accordingly.
SI Abjuration protects you from Abjuration spells EXCEPT for Abjuration spells that specifically remove spell protections. In other words, SI Abjuration DOES protect you from Dispel and Remove Magic (and Breach), but it DOES NOT protect you from Spell Thrust, Secret Word, Pierce Magic, Warding Whip etc. Therefore you do not need Ruby Ray to get round SI Abjuration, you can happily use normal Abjuration debuffing spells and they will work fine.
SCS therefore does nothing to enhance the value of Ruby Ray as opposed to other debuffing spells, and Ruby Ray continues to have a very niche (but important) job, that is, as the lowest level spell that removes Spell Trap.
Hope that clarifies.
Still does not change scs is awesome!
-finger of death
-spell sequencer
-mordy sword
And power word stun
(after my recent playthrough)
I accidentally got mass invisibility coz I left the spell choosing window and somehow I got stuck with this spell lol
And I got spell turning which is kinda fun but not too useful (I've had enemies maze themselves when spells backfired on themselves)
Other choices:
Limited wish
Summon hakeashar
(I got both and Mordy sword on my mage, Edwin)
Not going for Ruby coz I have spellstrike
Protection from the elements sounds pretty cool too