Never been a fan of Druids either however hard I tried to use and like them. We'll see how the new spells and summons perform. This new class can't be worse than Wizard Slayer anyway!
Mildly disappointed that dancing breaks invisibility (was the first thing I tried in the beta). I had visions of getting down where nobody could see me and having a stream of spirits show up to party with some bandits. Sadly, I'll now be forced to deal with their slings and arrows (my half-orc shaman isn't a very good dancer...)
But I fear that they will be underpowered because pure druids suck in bg2 and shamans will not be better
Whaaaaaat? But... but Ironskins! And no-save blind effects! And BEES! The progression tables are painful, to be sure, but the spells, man, the spells...
It does make sense to make them druids though. But I fear that they will be underpowered because pure druids suck in bg2 and shamans will not be better
But I fear that they will be underpowered because pure druids suck in bg2 and shamans will not be better
Whaaaaaat? But... but Ironskins! And no-save blind effects! And BEES! The progression tables are painful, to be sure, but the spells, man, the spells...
I like druids. Can you tell?
Shaman will get higher level spells a lot later than druids in BG1, but pass them in BG2.
But I fear that they will be underpowered because pure druids suck in bg2 and shamans will not be better
Whaaaaaat? But... but Ironskins! And no-save blind effects! And BEES! The progression tables are painful, to be sure, but the spells, man, the spells...
I like druids. Can you tell?
Yea these spells are nice, but some extra spells don't justify rolling pure druids when rolling fighter/druids (can cast all these stuff, wear armor, extra HP, whirlwind attacks, can be specialized in weapons, etc) is much better.
Shamans can't multi/dual which excludes them from all of these privileges.
Eh, that's not a problem with druids, that's a problem with multis and duals being generally better than single-classes. Clerics and thieves have that problem and more, quite frankly, as do fighters compared to fighter/priests and fighter/mages. I hardly see the reason for singling out druids.
Besides, the shaman also gets unique spells, sorcerer casting, infinisummons, and detect illusion. Now, I have no idea if that ends up stronger than a fighter/druid, but it sounds like a trade worth considering.
One issue I have with Shamans is that because there are still so few druid spells I would consider useful, they basically don't have to choose spells at all, since they can eventually gain all the ones worth having. On some levels (level 2 in particular) I actually don't want to learn any more! With Sorcerers you actually had to sacrifice otherwise decent abilities.
The Druid spellbook really needed at least some of those IWD:EE spells. The Shaman class kinda makes it even more obvious than it was before.
One issue of have with Shamans is that because there are still so few druid spells I would consider useful, they basically don't have to choose spells at all, since they can eventually gain all the ones worth having. On some levels (level 2 in particular) I actually don't want to learn any more! With Sorcerers you actually had to sacrifice otherwise decent abilities.
The Druid spellbook really needed at least some of those IWD:EE spells. The Shaman class kinda makes it even more obvious than it was before.
Hmm... the summons honesly seem kinda underwhelming. Unless they are really good it really looks like a waste to pray you get a good one instead of a crappy level 1 summon at higher levels when the enemy team is filled with casters or other foes with powerful abilities and every single round counts with AI mods. I'm hoping they have at least some sort of on hit special abilities otherwise the totem druid summons will remain superior. Also pretty sad there aren't any undead spirits summon for evil shamans.
The main problem of shaman is that summons are rather weak at higher levels.... maybe beside devas, planetars and greater elemental summoning. Well, shamanic dance is signature "skill" of shaman so i hope summons will be helpfull from begining to the end... anyway ill play this char bcs it seems its really interesting class
They have 3 unique HLA - A new spell dealing are of effect damage to the shaman ennemies and reducing their strength - A skill that can be use to gain improved invisibility and some bonus - A skill that act like a contingency, and cast a full heal spell if the shaman is going to die. 9 second cast time, and limited to one per day
They also have the normal druid hla, save the transform and summon elemental prince
I think that they should do something to level 2 spell.. The choice is very lacking at this level
Eh, that's not a problem with druids, that's a problem with multis and duals being generally better than single-classes. Clerics and thieves have that problem and more, quite frankly, as do fighters compared to fighter/priests and fighter/mages. I hardly see the reason for singling out druids.
Besides, the shaman also gets unique spells, sorcerer casting, infinisummons, and detect illusion. Now, I have no idea if that ends up stronger than a fighter/druid, but it sounds like a trade worth considering.
The problem is that druids still suck more compared to other single classes. Single fighters are very tough with other bonuses and clerics get bunch more spells and buffs to beef them up(plus they can wear plate). Heck even single thieves have their niche.
There is a reason why Cernd is universally not used despite his 18 wisdom making him one of the best divine casters.
I would argue that single-classed druids are far more useful at high levels than single-classed clerics. Especially since their armor restrictions don't mean much in the late game, what with ankheg plate and a million types of strong-AC leather. Plus, you know, Ironskins, which makes them better tanks than clerics will ever be, especially combined with their natural resistances, and in many cases prevents their spells from being disrupted in melee. And of course they can also wield Belm, which means they can contribute to melee damage to an extent that high level clerics tend to struggle with (clerics of Lathander not withstanding).
And while clerics do have some nice buffs, I can honestly say I would trade every cleric buff in the game for Insect Plague. Something about being able to lock down every caster in the room, through every spell protection they have. And they also get Creeping Doom, Nymph's Beauty, and a strictly better HLA list on top of that.
I think the reason Cernd is so rarely used (apart from his blandness), is that his kit is terrible (preventing him from using any of the nice druid armor without offering any particularly strong benefits in return), and the only other single-classed priest in the game has an innate 65% magic resistance and is romanceable.
One issue I have with Shamans is that because there are still so few druid spells I would consider useful, they basically don't have to choose spells at all, since they can eventually gain all the ones worth having. On some levels (level 2 in particular) I actually don't want to learn any more! With Sorcerers you actually had to sacrifice otherwise decent abilities.
Answer: Spell Revisions. Or, Faiths & Powers. Or both!
Those mods would have to be updated to take the Shaman in consideration.
In BG/BG2, wisdom plays no role in how much damage your spells inflict, which spell levels you can cast, or (for shamans) how many spell slots you receive.
Also -- I think the general consensus would be that single classed divine casters are underpowered whether you are talking about clerics, druids, or shamans. Multiclassing them with fighter at least allows them to eventually receive fighter HLAs, without sacrificing much casting power since you'll still receive key spells like lesser restoration (clerics) and iron skins (druids) fairly early in the game. Multiclassing them with ranger is even better (though unfortunately only possible for clerics) because of the bonus two-weapon proficiencies and expanded spell selection.
People in this thread have rightly noted that Jaheira seems useful, but that's mostly because she's a fighter/druid rather than a single-classed character. It's also worth noting that Jaheira has a couple of spells no other druid in the game can cast, like raise dead (Harper's call), which makes her better able than any other druid character in the game to fulfill the role of cleric in addition to being able to summon insects, cast iron skins, etc. Add to that the ability to wear metal armor, which the BG ruleset allows fighter/druids to do, and you've got a very solid addition to your party.
Shamans suffer by comparison because they can't multi to fighter nor can they dual from fighter. You also have to sacrifice doing any stronghold quests in BG2, which by itself is enough for some people to shy away from choosing a shaman as their protagonist. I don't agree with those who say their summons are "weak" -- they seem reasonable at least in my experience -- but would say it's rather dull to watch CHARNAME dance while melee proceeds around him.
The lack of multiclassing, dualclassing, and strongholds are major penalties against the shaman. The real kicker is that the thing that makes them unique (the dance), is pretty crap. The shaman can do nothing, nothing, or they lose everything they've built up and have to start again, and the summons aren't particularly powerful. Often times they come off as painfully weak.
Spontaneous divine casting is cool. There aren't a lot of really good druid spells to begin with, however, so it's not as interesting as a sorcerer. The bonus spells do a good bit to fill in the gaps in the druid spell list, at least.
Personally, I always use BGTweaks anyway, so strongholds aren't a concern to me. They should at least get the Keep as a fallback, however. That one doesn't have major plot requirements (beyond being good in a fight, which a shaman really should be given an infinitely respawning army of spirits).
The one thing that really, desperately needs to be changed, however, is the dance. Right now it's a combination of bad things that go poorly together. Any of these would do:
1) Allow the Shaman to move while dancing. It takes too long to build up a useful group of spirits, and by that time everything in range is already dead and moving destroys your little army. Bards get to move while singing. You can do the Dwarven Defender thing and put a 50% movement penalty on the dance, but no movement at all is beyond stupid.
2) Make the spirits more effective and/or add tiers. I tried a shaman out in the first bits of Throne of Bhaal, which are more or less trivial tutorial fights. The first trial (Gavid and the Price of Murder) is pathetically easy and is a horde mode assault on a set location. This is the perfect situation for a shaman. They were totally ineffective, however. A shaman is very powerful on the levels the grow a tier, but the power of their summons does not increase beyond that. More tiers would make that at least somewhat less painful.
3) More options for summons. Animals and elementals may work as generic options, but alternatives would definitely be desirable. One of the coolest bits of M'Khiin is the fact that her summons suit her character as the one adult in a species of children, cursed with equal parts pity, disgust, and responsibility for her own kind. If you treat the class more as a more generic summoner (with Shaman being the default kit), you could you could have multiple styles of summons to suit more types of characters. I once suggested a kit that tied to the Scion's status as a Bhaalspawn and the lives they have taken in order to survive, but I'd just like to have other themes as nature is frankly pretty boring.
4) Increase the rate at which the summons build up. I don't care if this is higher summon chance, more checks per round, the potential for a "critical" summon that calls multiple summons, or what, but it takes so long to raise a worthwhile force that there will be nobody left within reach. And each individual summon isn't particularly useful.
5) Allow the summons to be directed. The shaman is a summoner-type class with no control over their minions. This is really quite stupid. This slow, immobile, sub-par army of regenerating cannon fodder would at least be useful if you could at least point at what you want them to attack. Instead, they're just wandering around aimlessly, attacking whatever catches their interest and totally mucking up any chance at tactics.
Any one of these would make this new class more attractive. As things stand now, the dance takes to long to get into gear, creates typically useless fodder, allows for no direction, and everything is lost if you so much as scratch your nose. The nature theme, while not bad, is pretty boring, especially compared to M'Khiin's version.
Comments
I like druids. Can you tell?
http://www.angelfire.com/games/Oerth3/Druids/AppendixA.html
http://www.mjyoung.net/dungeon/char/clas010.html
http://www.dmsguild.com/product/170096/Unearthed-Arcana-1e
Shamans can't multi/dual which excludes them from all of these privileges.
Besides, the shaman also gets unique spells, sorcerer casting, infinisummons, and detect illusion. Now, I have no idea if that ends up stronger than a fighter/druid, but it sounds like a trade worth considering.
And that's simply that your primary attribute has no real affect on your spells or spells known.
The Druid spellbook really needed at least some of those IWD:EE spells. The Shaman class kinda makes it even more obvious than it was before.
Unless they are really good it really looks like a waste to pray you get a good one instead of a crappy level 1 summon at higher levels when the enemy team is filled with casters or other foes with powerful abilities and every single round counts with AI mods.
I'm hoping they have at least some sort of on hit special abilities otherwise the totem druid summons will remain superior.
Also pretty sad there aren't any undead spirits summon for evil shamans.
- A new spell dealing are of effect damage to the shaman ennemies and reducing their strength
- A skill that can be use to gain improved invisibility and some bonus
- A skill that act like a contingency, and cast a full heal spell if the shaman is going to die. 9 second cast time, and limited to one per day
They also have the normal druid hla, save the transform and summon elemental prince
I think that they should do something to level 2 spell.. The choice is very lacking at this level
There is a reason why Cernd is universally not used despite his 18 wisdom making him one of the best divine casters.
And while clerics do have some nice buffs, I can honestly say I would trade every cleric buff in the game for Insect Plague. Something about being able to lock down every caster in the room, through every spell protection they have. And they also get Creeping Doom, Nymph's Beauty, and a strictly better HLA list on top of that.
I think the reason Cernd is so rarely used (apart from his blandness), is that his kit is terrible (preventing him from using any of the nice druid armor without offering any particularly strong benefits in return), and the only other single-classed priest in the game has an innate 65% magic resistance and is romanceable.
Also -- I think the general consensus would be that single classed divine casters are underpowered whether you are talking about clerics, druids, or shamans. Multiclassing them with fighter at least allows them to eventually receive fighter HLAs, without sacrificing much casting power since you'll still receive key spells like lesser restoration (clerics) and iron skins (druids) fairly early in the game. Multiclassing them with ranger is even better (though unfortunately only possible for clerics) because of the bonus two-weapon proficiencies and expanded spell selection.
People in this thread have rightly noted that Jaheira seems useful, but that's mostly because she's a fighter/druid rather than a single-classed character. It's also worth noting that Jaheira has a couple of spells no other druid in the game can cast, like raise dead (Harper's call), which makes her better able than any other druid character in the game to fulfill the role of cleric in addition to being able to summon insects, cast iron skins, etc. Add to that the ability to wear metal armor, which the BG ruleset allows fighter/druids to do, and you've got a very solid addition to your party.
Shamans suffer by comparison because they can't multi to fighter nor can they dual from fighter. You also have to sacrifice doing any stronghold quests in BG2, which by itself is enough for some people to shy away from choosing a shaman as their protagonist. I don't agree with those who say their summons are "weak" -- they seem reasonable at least in my experience -- but would say it's rather dull to watch CHARNAME dance while melee proceeds around him.
Spontaneous divine casting is cool. There aren't a lot of really good druid spells to begin with, however, so it's not as interesting as a sorcerer. The bonus spells do a good bit to fill in the gaps in the druid spell list, at least.
Personally, I always use BGTweaks anyway, so strongholds aren't a concern to me. They should at least get the Keep as a fallback, however. That one doesn't have major plot requirements (beyond being good in a fight, which a shaman really should be given an infinitely respawning army of spirits).
The one thing that really, desperately needs to be changed, however, is the dance. Right now it's a combination of bad things that go poorly together. Any of these would do:
1) Allow the Shaman to move while dancing. It takes too long to build up a useful group of spirits, and by that time everything in range is already dead and moving destroys your little army. Bards get to move while singing. You can do the Dwarven Defender thing and put a 50% movement penalty on the dance, but no movement at all is beyond stupid.
2) Make the spirits more effective and/or add tiers. I tried a shaman out in the first bits of Throne of Bhaal, which are more or less trivial tutorial fights. The first trial (Gavid and the Price of Murder) is pathetically easy and is a horde mode assault on a set location. This is the perfect situation for a shaman. They were totally ineffective, however. A shaman is very powerful on the levels the grow a tier, but the power of their summons does not increase beyond that. More tiers would make that at least somewhat less painful.
3) More options for summons. Animals and elementals may work as generic options, but alternatives would definitely be desirable. One of the coolest bits of M'Khiin is the fact that her summons suit her character as the one adult in a species of children, cursed with equal parts pity, disgust, and responsibility for her own kind. If you treat the class more as a more generic summoner (with Shaman being the default kit), you could you could have multiple styles of summons to suit more types of characters. I once suggested a kit that tied to the Scion's status as a Bhaalspawn and the lives they have taken in order to survive, but I'd just like to have other themes as nature is frankly pretty boring.
4) Increase the rate at which the summons build up. I don't care if this is higher summon chance, more checks per round, the potential for a "critical" summon that calls multiple summons, or what, but it takes so long to raise a worthwhile force that there will be nobody left within reach. And each individual summon isn't particularly useful.
5) Allow the summons to be directed. The shaman is a summoner-type class with no control over their minions. This is really quite stupid. This slow, immobile, sub-par army of regenerating cannon fodder would at least be useful if you could at least point at what you want them to attack. Instead, they're just wandering around aimlessly, attacking whatever catches their interest and totally mucking up any chance at tactics.
Any one of these would make this new class more attractive. As things stand now, the dance takes to long to get into gear, creates typically useless fodder, allows for no direction, and everything is lost if you so much as scratch your nose. The nature theme, while not bad, is pretty boring, especially compared to M'Khiin's version.